Not Fermentable Malts

[Thomas1999]

Hi, in many recipes I have found online, I see that the fact that some malts are not fermentable is overlooked. One example are carapils, caramunich and all malts that start with "cara".
The software I use (BrewFather) gives me the option of indicating if a malt is not fermentable so that it is not considered in the FG and alcohol calculations. However, if I indicate that these malts are not fermentable, the alcohol content that the software calculates changes by a lot, especially if the amount of non-fermentable malts in the recipe is considerable.

Here is an example where I marked carapils, caramunich and caramel malts as not fermentables:

abv = 6%

Instead, here is the original recipe where, however, non-fermentable malts contribute to the final alcohol content.

abv = 7.1%

Can you please explain the misunderstanding? Thank you.

 

[day_trippr]

Apparently BrewFather has no inherent awareness of malt characteristics. Carapils is a dextrin malt essentially unfermentable. If BF adds it to the fermentation unless told not to then its up to the user to make things right.

Same applies to your other malts in question. It gets interesting for malts that are partially fermentable. Does BrewFather have a ppg spec you can set?

Cheers!

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

Could it be that's just BrewFather's way of compensating for whether those grains are being mashed or steeped?

 

[govner1]

I’d suggest you contact Brewer Father

 

[Miraculix]

All crystal or cara or caramel malts contain fermentable sugars and only partially unfermentable sugars. Most of them also contain a certain percentage of starches, which will be turned into sugars during the mash. As a rule of thumb, the darker the malt, the more unfermentable (for normal yeasts) sugars are in there.

A lot of these unfermentables are turned into fermentables during normal mashing procedure so defining all of these malts as unfermentable is not a good idea as it will not reflect reality.

 

[Thomas1999]

also because brewfather tells me that crystal has a ppg value of 35 and maris otter 36. If crystal is considered a non-fermentable malt, why does it have a ppg value very similar to that of a fermentable malt?

 

[Miraculix]

also because brewfather tells me that crystal has a ppg value of 35 and maris otter 36. If crystal is considered a non-fermentable malt, why does it have a ppg value very similar to that of a fermentable malt?

Ppg has nothing to do with fermentability. It only tells you how much you can expect it to raise the wort's gravity. Fermentable and non-fermentable sugars both raise the gravity. ANd crystal malt is NOT a non-fermentable malt. It contains sugars that are unfermentable and also fermentabel ones. See my post above.

 

[mac_1103]

One example are carapils, caramunich and all malts that start with "cara".

I'm not sure it's actually true that all malts that start with "cara" contribute only unfermentable dextrins:

"Carafoam (Carapils outside the US) is different than Briess Carapils and is akin to chit malt, high in protein and under-modified. It is mealy/starchy so it too is converted into fermentable sugars when mashed"
-Scott Janish, Dextrins and Mouthfeel

edit - worth reading the whole thing; could be that Brewer's Friend assuming that these malts are fully fermentable might be a lot closer to the truth than assuming that they're fully unfermentable.

 

[hotbeer]

Check to see if the Brewfather's spec's for that malt match the spec's for the actual malt that the maltster provides. Or does Brewfather not let you deal with the extraction spec's and other things that many other programs let you use. If you added them to the database as new malts, then maybe you fat fingered something.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Can you please explain the misunderstanding?

@Miraculix summarized how crystal malts work (in the real world) well in #5.

All crystal or cara or caramel malts contain fermentable sugars and only partially unfermentable sugars. Most of them also contain a certain percentage of starches, which will be turned into sugars during the mash. As a rule of thumb, the darker the malt, the more unfermentable (for normal yeasts) sugars are in there.

A lot of these unfermentables are turned into fermentables during normal mashing procedure [...]

---

There are a couple of ways that you could confirm those statements:

• Testing fermentability of crystal malt (link)
• summary of Testing fermentability of crystal malt (link)
• create a wort by steeping a pound of crystal 60 in a gallon of water, pasteurize it, cool it, Measure SG, add yeast. Two weeks later, measure SG again.

Note that I haven't tried the steeping experiment with some of the enzyme products or the dry yeast + enzyme products that have become available in the last couple of years.

---

from the topic: Not Fermentable Malts

Roasted malts are generally not fermentable.

Try the steeping experiment with Black malt rather than Crystal 60

---

I looked briefly at the BrewFather web site. I reviewed some of the crystal malts - and found different PPGs (generally in the 33 - 36 range).

in many recipes I have found online,

I doubt the mis-understanding is with BrewFather. Beyond that, without specific recipes to consider, all one can do is speculate.

 

[G_robertus]

@Miraculix summarized how crystal malts work (in the real world) well in #5.

---

There are a couple of ways that you could confirm those statements:

• Testing fermentability of crystal malt (link)
• summary of Testing fermentability of crystal malt (link)
• create a wort by steeping a pound of crystal 60 in a gallon of water, pasteurize it, cool it, Measure SG, add yeast. Two weeks later, measure SG again.

Note that I haven't tried the steeping experiment with some of the enzyme products or the dry yeast + enzyme products that have become available in the last couple of years.

---

from the topic: Not Fermentable Malts

Roasted malts are generally not fermentable.

Try the steeping experiment with Black malt rather than Crystal 60

---

I looked briefly at the BrewFather web site. I reviewed some of the crystal malts - and found different PPGs (generally in the 33 - 36 range).


I doubt the mis-understanding is with BrewFather. Beyond that, without specific recipes to consider, all one can do is speculate.

If I may add, you'd maybe want to compare steeping these malts to mashing them. I'm not sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if mashing actually increased fermentability compared to simply steeping.

Edit: ADHD strikes again and my point is explained pretty much in your links. Thanks for providing these posts, saves me of having to test it myself (again).

 

[mac_1103]

I wouldn't be surprised if mashing actually increased fermentability compared to simply steeping.

Yes, if mashed with a base malt. Most (all?) of these have no diastatic power.

 

[G_robertus]

Yes, if mashed with a base malt. Most (all?) of these have no diastatic power.

The process of creating any type of darker malt destroys diastatic power, yes. What I meant is that there might be sugars or starches in there that can still be converted by base malt, but you wouldn't notice that when simply steeping malt.

Which reminds me, there are quite some differences between caramel malts and English crystal (and some other suppliers, like Viking) malt. E.g. Thomas Fawcett crystal malt has hard glassy kernels that have been converted and caramelised completely, whereas other brands have starchy caramel malts that have not been converted or caramelised completely. With starchy malt you'd definitely see a difference in fermentability between steeping Vs mashing.

 

[Yooper]

If I may add, you'd maybe want to compare steeping these malts to mashing them. I'm not sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if mashing actually increased fermentability compared to simply steeping.

Edit: ADHD strikes again and my point is explained pretty much in your links. Thanks for providing these posts, saves me of having to it myself (again).

Cara type malts are ‘premashed’ so to speak and the sugars in them are NOT unfermentable. So that’s wrong on this software’s part.

Mashing crystal malt vs steeping won’t make a meaningful difference in the fermentability or the gravity contribution to the wort.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

1 # Brewers Malt, 2 oz Crystal 60, targeting 1 gal of wort.

When I'm measuring SG on brew day, my tolerance for variation is around 5 GPs (below that, I RDWHAHB; above that, I look for missing ingredients, water volume changes, ...),

I'll agree with steeping vs mashing "won't make a meaningful difference".

 

[hottpeper13]

Yooper is rite on. At a symposium in Milwaukee some years ago John Mallet explained crystal malts like this. Each corn is a mini mash tun. After kilning the grain bed is brought to ~45% hydration and steeped at ~143* for X amount of time, then brought to 160* for X amount of time. Now it can be dried and roasted and everything that could be converted has been and you only really need to steep them. On my system I use them in the mash to help lower pH without having to use acid malt.

 

[Miraculix]

The ideal world crystal. Unfortunately the world isn't ideal and so this has been experimentally debunked multiple times, links above.

 

[G_robertus]

Cara type malts are ‘premashed’ so to speak and the sugars in them are NOT unfermentable. So that’s wrong on this software’s part.

Mashing crystal malt vs steeping won’t make a meaningful difference in the fermentability or the gravity contribution to the wort.

The tests performed by @nilo in the first link show there is quite a big difference in extraction and fermentability of caramel malts. 100% caramel returned a positive starch test, whereas 50/50 caramel/2-row did not. Although I'm not convinced solely by a starch test, the other numbers don't lie. Clearly in the case of Briess caramalts there is a difference between steeping and mashing. In addition to PPG, attenuation numbers also differ between simply steeping or mashing caramalts, if you average them out to get the numbers for steeping. The differences seem much larger the darker the caramel malt gets. Again, I would like to see the effect on something like TF or Viking malt. I have a lot of Viking C30 and C50 leftover that I won't use soon so I might try so myself.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

One example are carapils, caramunich and all malts that start with "cara".

I'm not sure it's actually true that all malts that start with "cara" contribute only unfermentable dextrins:
"Carafoam (Carapils outside the US) is different than Briess Carapils and is akin to chit malt, high in protein and under-modified. It is mealy/starchy so it too is converted into fermentable sugars when mashed"

Exactly - before people rush to assume that the OP is in the US and using Briess Carapils and start talking about caramel malts, how about actually looking where the OP is from? Namely Italy, and using Bindewald Carapils from Germany.

So we're talking about European chit malt, not US caramel malt. So it's fermentable.

It's one of those classic transatlantic confusions that has its origins in a trademark dispute, but as soon as I saw it was a European posting about Carapils, I knew what the problem would be.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Back in #1, given "Here is an example where [OP] marked carapils, caramunich and caramel malts as not fermentables", there was initially no reason to look at the screenshots. The malt categories listed typically contain fermentable sugars.

And, topics go where topics go, especially if the topic is answered well early on.

• The software aspect of the topic was answered well by reply #4.
• The topic title, "Not Fermentable Malts", in the context of "cara" malts, was answered well by reply #5.

After that, are a number of sub- (ans sub-sub-) topics that may to appropriate for personas that joined recently (please don't assume "joined" date is the same as "years of experience brewing").

---

edits: moved "back in #1" paragraph from end to beginning

 

[Alan Reginato]

Normal misunderstanding about it. More colour means less fermentability. Caramel/crystals malts still have fermentables. Roasted nearly none.

See this study, especially the graphics and conclusions. 50% pilsner and 50% roasted, nearly halved the fermentables, if compared to 100% pilsner. 50/50 with caraaroma (high colour caramel) almost same result. But different results with lower colour caramel malts. Higher the colour, lower the fermentables.



Article

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Normal misunderstanding about it.

... and amplified by the periodic "echo chamber" topics on crystal malts. And the "echo chamber' is strong on this one.

... probably too many UT videos get it wrong as well

... but ChatGPT 3.5 rolleyes gets this one right. So maybe there's hope.

 

[Bobby_M]

Aside from the understandable misunderstanding of the OP on the way "less fermentable" grains may work, or should be represented in software, this is very interesting stuff. Brewing is pretty complicated at the micro level. One combines a big list of grain types with hot water and eventually beer is born, but rarely does any single brewer know everything that is happening at the glucose unit level.

One thing to consider about crystal malts is that even though their sugar structure has been established in the malt house, mashing them with enzymatic base malts on a schedule can change that sugar. Sure, you can use 10% dextrine (carapils) but what if you hold that mash at 144F where limit dextrinase is cozy? I know that would be counterproductive, but...

I agree that the fermentability of darker roast malts is more of an important consideration overall. It's pretty common for people to get stumped why their Imperial Stout got stuck 10 points high.

 

[Bobby_M]

Cara type malts are ‘premashed’ so to speak and the sugars in them are NOT unfermentable. So that’s wrong on this software’s part.

It's not really the software's fault. The OP wrote that "I marked carapils, caramunich and caramel malts as not fermentables:" That is a user, using a tool incorrectly.

 

[Yooper]

It's not really the software's fault. The OP wrote that "I marked carapils, caramunich and caramel malts as not fermentables:" That is a user, using a tool incorrectly.

Thanks for pointing that out- I missed it totallly thinking the software marked those grains as non-fermentable. That does make a huge difference.