New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[Dgallo]

Sounds and looks fantastic. Is it 3 parts Cashmere and 2 parts Amarillo?

I need to put in a new Yakima order as I'm running out fast. Was hanging on till 2020 Galaxy comes out, was out in June last year but who knows what's going to happen with supplies this year. Might still Cashmere and Sabro on the list for something new to try. Not mad on coconut flavour so would keep the Sabro low.

Yeah 3 to 2 ratio of cashmere to Amarillo with b cashmere being 3:1 to both citra and sabro. This is the first time i feel I got a nice character from sabro. First time i used it only on the hotside and too little being easily over shadowed. The second time I used too much and it had a lot of Cedar Mulch notes with another weird profile I couldn't put my finger on This is the first time I got a really nice coconut note

 

[VirginiaHops1]

This is my latest - azacca, mosaic, and simcoe/simcoe cryo with A38 Juice. Some of my previous hazy batches have turned out really good but this is probably my favorite thus far. Some things I tweaked on this batch:
- increased ABV, up to 7.8%. Previous batches were mostly sub 7%.
- added a small amount of honey malt(2%). Typically grist has just been 2-row/wheat/oats.
- used cryo in the dry hop. Not the first time I've done this, but I don't do this too frequently. However, my batches that have it tend to be among my favorites. This is the first time I've used simcoe cryo.
- accidentally doubled the whirlpool hop addition.
Don't know what changes had the greatest impact on flavor, probably a sum of all parts type thing.

 

[isomerization]

Yeah it’s a bit of a mystery to me, but I’ve brewed 3 batches with identical recipes and every time I check gravity before and after the lactose addition and get only .003 SG increase. It’s added during recirculation whirlpool so I know it is mixing well.

Have you tried different sources, something is not correct. Is your volume higher than 7.7 gallon when adding?

 

[emr25]

Have you tried different sources, something is not correct. Is your volume higher than 7.7 gallon when adding?

All from the same 5 lb bag of lactose I bought and split up into (5) 1 lb vacuum sealed packs.

Volume is definitely 7.7 gallons, the kettle is marked and I’ve verified the markings.

Once I use up this lactose I’ll order more and see if maybe it was off somehow? Not sure what is up. I’ve even done the same grain bill with 8 oz lactose (from same 5 lb bag) at flameout and I got ~.0015 increase.

 

[aaronm13]

Yeah 3 to 2 ratio of cashmere to Amarillo with b cashmere being 3:1 to both citra and sabro. This is the first time i feel I got a nice character from sabro. First time i used it only on the hotside and too little being easily over shadowed. The second time I used too much and it had a lot of Cedar Mulch notes with another weird profile I couldn't put my finger on This is the first time I got a really nice coconut note

Thanks. I've added Cashmere and Sabro to my cart. For reference what was your Cashmere rates in whirlpool and dry hop? Also I've read about Sabro being tricky to get right with how and when to use. Do you use it in whirlpool and dry hop?

 

[jturman35]

I Have used it twice and I have found it’s finicky, I did a 4oz dry hop which has taken a month to mellow out, still not there yet. A buddy of mine used 4oz Motueka/Sabro in a Dry hop that Came out amazing.

 

[Dgallo]

Thanks. I've added Cashmere and Sabro to my cart. For reference what was your Cashmere rates in whirlpool and dry hop? Also I've read about Sabro being tricky to get right with how and when to use. Do you use it in whirlpool and dry hop?

Sabro 1 oz hotside 1.5 oz dryhop
Cashmere 2 oz hotside 4.5 oz dryhop

 

[aaronm13]

Sabro 1 oz hotside 1.5 oz dryhop
Cashmere 2 oz hotside 4.5 oz dryhop

Thanks for that Dgallo. So definitely go light on the Sabro.

While I'm at it, what would work with Medusa and Ekuanot? Would they even work together?

 

[secretlevel]

Tapped my lastest ipa last night and it’s impressive.

NEIIPA 8.7% featuring Cashmere, Amarillo pellet/cryo, Citra pellet/cryo, & Sabro in a 3:2:1:1 ratio ran with a24 dryhop. Grainbill was simple 75% 2row, 15% Chit Malt, 10% Flaked Oats. This is def another beer going in top 5 combos for me. Flavor profile is very tropical with notes Peach Ring Gummies, Orange cream, Lime zest, and coconut in the finish tied in with smooth/soft resinous bitterness to round it all out. Mouthfeel is pretty good, a little “thick” finish at 1.016 so I may target a lower mash temp next time I brew this to see if that helps lighten it up. It was naturally carbed so its got very tight bubbles that gives a creamy note. Def a great hop combo. View attachment 681547View attachment 681548

Sweet looking head, my man! I'll have to give natural carbing a shot.

Kind of insane that your FG is where it is for 8.7%! I just finished a 7.9% beer myself and I was surprised that A24 fermented all the way down to 1.011 (no lactose yet). OG was 1.071. Is your FG 1.016 with lactose included? Pretty surprising for me to get 84% attenuation since Imperial's A24 page claims 74-78%... Then again, this isn't a fresh pack.

Side question - where does everyone get their cryo? YVH never seems to have it...

 

[Dgallo]

Thanks for that Dgallo. So definitely go light on the Sabro.

While I'm at it, what would work with Medusa and Ekuanot? Would they even work together?

I’m far more familiar with Medusa, I get like nectarine/peach thing with an underlining dank neomex component. Medusa works nice with; mosaic, Amarillo, Citra, & simcoe to name a few.

 

[isomerization]

Side question - where does everyone get their cryo? YVH never seems to have it...

https://www.williamsbrewing.com/Search.aspx?k=Cryo+hops
They offer bulk discount too.

 

[aaronm13]

I’m far more familiar with Medusa, I get like nectarine/peach thing with an underlining dank neomex component. Medusa works nice with; mosaic, Amarillo, Citra, & simcoe to name a few.

Ah cool , I was thinking Simcoe too. Have a bit of Strata too which should work too with the dankness. Finding Ekuanot to work into a recipe. Not sure why I ordered it.

 

[Dgallo]

Sweet looking head, my man! I'll have to give natural carbing a shot.

Kind of insane that your FG is where it is for 8.7%! I just finished a 7.9% beer myself and I was surprised that A24 fermented all the way down to 1.011 (no lactose yet). OG was 1.071. Is your FG 1.016 with lactose included? Pretty surprising for me to get 84% attenuation since Imperial's A24 page claims 74-78%... Then again, this isn't a fresh pack.

Side question - where does everyone get their cryo? YVH never seems to have it...

No lactose, mashed 154*f. 1.082 og 1.016 fg

 

[stickyfinger]

Use the ekuanot in a pils or ipl. Perfect.

Ah cool , I was thinking Simcoe too. Have a bit of Strata too which should work too with the dankness. Finding Ekuanot to work into a recipe. Not sure why I ordered it.

 

[R.A.I.D]

What do you recommend?

Malted or flaked oats?
Malted or flaked wheat?
Cara pils, chit malt or flaked barley?

 

[Dgallo]

What do you recommend?

Malted or flaked oats?
Malted or flaked wheat?
Cara pils, chit malt or flaked barley?

They each have their own attributes so it depends what your looking to achieve

 

[VirginiaHops1]

What do you recommend?

Malted or flaked oats?
Malted or flaked wheat?
Cara pils, chit malt or flaked barley?

I typically use malted. Although I have done batches with similar grists back to back and just subbed flaked oats for the malted. I noticed really no difference, I just find malted easier to work with.

Scott Janish has written a lot about flaked vs malted and says flaked stuff have higher molecular weight which could cause them to lose their haze faster. Flaked also supposedly has more manganese which is thought to be a major cause of oxidation.

 

[MrPowers]

What do you recommend?

Malted or flaked oats?
Malted or flaked wheat?
Cara pils, chit malt or flaked barley?

I typically use malted. Although I have done batches with similar grists back to back and just subbed flaked oats for the malted. I noticed really no difference, I just find malted easier to work with.

Scott Janish has written a lot about flaked vs malted and says flaked stuff have higher molecular weight which could cause them to lose their haze faster. Flaked also supposedly has more manganese which is thought to be a major cause of oxidation.

I agree. I tend to prefer working with malted oats if I'm using larger quantities just because they are easier to work with. If it's under 10% of the total grain bill, I'll go with flaked oats. The flavor difference is very subtle, but you will get slightly more character with malted (depending on the maltster).

I always use malted wheat because I buy it by the sack for other styles. I haven't used flaked enough to compare, but malted works wonders in NEIPA.

I don't bother with carapils/chit/flaked barley most of the time. If I had to pick one of those, it would be chit, for no other reason than I currently have 3lbs of it in my grain storage bin. Once that's gone, I don't think I will order any more. I don't see any benefits from those grains that can't be achieved with a good step mash.

 

[Dgallo]

What do you recommend?

Malted or flaked oats?
Malted or flaked wheat?
Cara pils, chit malt or flaked barley?

Carapils - creates less haze than flaked adjuncts and malted oats/wheat. Helps with foam and head retention without much flavor impact. My go to in west coast ipas but I’ve moved away from it over the past years in NEIPAS

Malted wheat - great to use at high percentages, aids in head retention and foam structure. From experience it only slightly builds the body. Added wheat notes.

Flaked Wheat - extremely good for head retention and body. Cause quite a bit of haze but best to be used at 15% and under otherwise it can certainly cause a slight clearing. Adds wheat notes

Flaked oats - great for a slick mouthfeel but poor for head retention. Can lead to A greater possibility of hop burn. Add oat flavor

Malted Oats - best used At 15%+ of the grain bill. Great for providing a slick “viscous” mouthfeel. Slightly better than flaked oat for head retention but certainly doesnt add much benefit in that direction. Can really add to the possibility of hopburn ( could be simply because you tend to use elevated amounts of it). Adds oat flavor

Chit Malt - Best in my opinion for head retention. Very similar body attributed of malted wheat.

Flaked Barley - seems almost to be a middle ground of flaked oats and flaked wheat. Helps build body but also provides a slight slickness to the body. Just like the other flaked grains, best at 15% and under.

 

[breweer]

Here is my latest using the suggestion by @stickyfinger to hard crash, warm up for the dry hop (low 70's F), and cold crash again before packaging. I can say this is my favorite method so far.

I had brewed this same exact beer a few weeks prior using a soft crash and dry hop at 60 F. That one was good, but did not have the hop punch of this version. I'm not sure if its the hard crash before dry hop or the warmer dry temps that caused it, but this version is noticeably sweeter and has more/better flavor. Malt bill and FG were exactly the same, so the sweetness is purely coming from the hops.

I will be sticking with this method from now on. 3 weeks from brewday and it is killer.

View attachment 681348

Sorry in advance for overlooking but I can’t find this process. Cold crashing with a few points left, raise back up to 70s, dry hop for a few days and crash cool again?

 

[Dgallo]

Sorry in advance for overlooking but I can’t find this process. Cold crashing with a few points left, raise back up to 70s, dry hop for a few days and crash cool again?

You want the beer to finish before you crash at all. So hit your fg and let it clean up. Then you are bringing the wort down to a temp cold enough to slow the yeast and have them drop out of suspension. Some strains that’s just below 60 and other strains are stubborn and need to go around 50. I’ll drop to serving temps for 36 hours to do this if I have room in my full kegerator, it’s just more convenient. Then warm back up to room temp and dryhop. That’s 62-64*f for me

 

[R.A.I.D]

I ferment in one keg and dry hop in another after crashing out the yeast. I want to hard crash at 32F and dry hop at 67F.

After crashing: Would you expect any difference from (1) transfering the beer to the dry hop keg while the beer is still cold and then warm the beer in the dry hop keg versus (2) warm the beer in the fermentation keg and then transfer to the dry hop keg?

Warming the beer while at the yeast might get some of the yeast back in suspension. While cold beer on the dry hop might extract some unwanted flavors.

 

[Dgallo]

I ferment in one keg and dry hop in another after crashing out the yeast. I want to hard crash at 32F and dry hop at 67F.

After crashing: Would you expect any difference from (1) transfering the beer to the dry hop keg while the beer is still cold and then warm the beer in the dry hop keg versus (2) warm the beer in the fermentation keg and then transfer to the dry hop keg?

Warming the beer while at the yeast might get some of the yeast back in suspension. While cold beer on the dry hop might extract some unwanted flavors.

I'd transfer cold, just make sure your dryhopping keg is completely purged of o2 and you should have no issue. I would think most, if not all of us are transfering to our serving kegs when cold

 

[ryanm8]

Cold beer on the dry hop is fine in my experience. I have never gotten any off flavors from that. The key is to make sure it warms back up for a few days (3 works best for me) while on the hops.

My current process is cold crash to 37F for 2 days, dry hop and let warm back up to ~70F for 3 days, then crash to 37F again for about 36 hours.

I ferment in one keg and dry hop in another after crashing out the yeast. I want to hard crash at 32F and dry hop at 67F.

After crashing: Would you expect any difference from (1) transfering the beer to the dry hop keg while the beer is still cold and then warm the beer in the dry hop keg versus (2) warm the beer in the fermentation keg and then transfer to the dry hop keg?

Warming the beer while at the yeast might get some of the yeast back in suspension. While cold beer on the dry hop might extract some unwanted flavors.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

I ferment in one keg and dry hop in another after crashing out the yeast. I want to hard crash at 32F and dry hop at 67F.

After crashing: Would you expect any difference from (1) transfering the beer to the dry hop keg while the beer is still cold and then warm the beer in the dry hop keg versus (2) warm the beer in the fermentation keg and then transfer to the dry hop keg?

Warming the beer while at the yeast might get some of the yeast back in suspension. While cold beer on the dry hop might extract some unwanted flavors.

I've done it both ways and had no issues either way. I think you can just do whatever works best on your production line. Usually now I transfer cold to the dry hop keg and just let it free rise to whatever temp I'm dry hopping at, because I just don't want to wait for it to warm up before transferring.

 

[couchsending]

Listening to a podcast today that referenced a BSG paper released earlier this winter with some interesting info on cold dry hopping. Might actually get more fruitier aspects of the hops at colder temps vs. higher. Might have to try even colder than 55.

 

[anteater8]

Just did two batches with Barbarian and I think I've confirmed that I like Juice better.

 

[Dgallo]

Just did two batches with Barbarian and I think I've confirmed that I like Juice better.

What did you ferment Barbarian at and at what pitch rate?

and was it the same exact recipe and you just switched out the yeast?

 

[anteater8]

What did you ferment Barbarian at and at what pitch rate?

and was it the same exact recipe and you just switched out the yeast?

I pitched 0.75 and fermented at 66 for 3 days and then slowly up to room temp. One of the recipes was the same that I brewed with Juice, but its been about a year and a half. I wish I had a better description, might just be my gut telling me I prefer Juice.... but I feel like the mouthfeel on the Barbarian is a little on the heavy side for me despite finishing at 1.012, not quite as crushable. Then again, my other Barbarian brew had a great mouthfeel so it could be a variety of factors.

 

[Dgallo]

I pitched 0.75 and fermented at 66 for 3 days and then slowly up to room temp. One of the recipes was the same that I brewed with Juice, but its been about a year and a half. I wish I had a better description, might just be my gut telling me I prefer Juice.... but I feel like the mouthfeel on the Barbarian is a little on the heavy side for me despite finishing at 1.012, not quite as crushable. Then again, my other Barbarian brew had a great mouthfeel so it could be a variety of factors.

I run Barbarian between 72-74 and pitch about .5-.6, I get a solid stone fruit character that way. I don’t use it by itself very often though. Both are great yeast though. Would have been cool if you did a side by side.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

I run Barbarian between 72-74 and pitch about .5-.6, I get a solid stone fruit character that way. I don’t use it by itself very often though. Both are great yeast though. Would have been cool if you did a side by side.

OK rookie question here as Ive brewed a bunch (n=14) of these NEIPAs in a relatively short time. Since I am new, I haven't really done any under pitching of yeast as I just wanted to ensure good attenuation. My pitch rates have always been the traditional 0.75 or 1.0 pitch rates with only using the higher pitch rate for most of my double NEIPAs. I have though pushed towards the upper end of temp range (73 degrees) for A24, A04, GY054 and 95 degrees for Voss Kviek. So given that Ive always assumed that esters really shine by going high temp AND under pitching, I am thinking that under pitching is the bigger factor here for ester formation. Is this correct? My favorite yeasts so far have been A24 and Voss Kviek (Omega) but I don't think I have really expressed the esters as much as I could have by under pitching. I also haven't wanted esters overpowering my hop combos. I have a fresh pack of A24 so thinking I might try under pitching the next one.

 

[crusader1612]

OK rookie question here as Ive brewed a bunch (n=14) of these NEIPAs in a relatively short time. Since I am new, I haven't really done any under pitching of yeast as I just wanted to ensure good attenuation. My pitch rates have always been the traditional 0.75 or 1.0 pitch rates with only using the higher pitch rate for most of my double NEIPAs. I have though pushed towards the upper end of temp range (73 degrees) for A24, A04, GY054 and 95 degrees for Voss Kviek. So given that Ive always assumed that esters really shine by going high temp AND under pitching, I am thinking that under pitching is the bigger factor here for ester formation. Is this correct? My favorite yeasts so far have been A24 and Voss Kviek (Omega) but I don't think I have really expressed the esters as much as I could have by under pitching. I also haven't wanted esters overpowering my hop combos. I have a fresh pack of A24 so thinking I might try under pitching the next one.

Yes, from my limited understanding of Kveik yeasts, under pitching will increase ester formation (in voss this is citrus generally).
I am not sure around off-flavours etc. though, which is always my main concern.

For liquid yeasts, i've been told t hat Opshaug has enough for 2-3 pitches in a single pcket, but someone else might be able to shed a little light on that.

I just ran with the dry lallemand voss yeast 2 packs unrehydrated into 1.068OG wort. testing the potential theory for stressed yeast, while pitching based on the lallemand recommendations for pack numbers.
kegged in 8 days.

 

[Dgallo]

OK rookie question here as Ive brewed a bunch (n=14) of these NEIPAs in a relatively short time. Since I am new, I haven't really done any under pitching of yeast as I just wanted to ensure good attenuation. My pitch rates have always been the traditional 0.75 or 1.0 pitch rates with only using the higher pitch rate for most of my double NEIPAs. I have though pushed towards the upper end of temp range (73 degrees) for A24, A04, GY054 and 95 degrees for Voss Kviek. So given that Ive always assumed that esters really shine by going high temp AND under pitching, I am thinking that under pitching is the bigger factor here for ester formation. Is this correct? My favorite yeasts so far have been A24 and Voss Kviek (Omega) but I don't think I have really expressed the esters as much as I could have by under pitching. I also haven't wanted esters overpowering my hop combos. I have a fresh pack of A24 so thinking I might try under pitching the next one.

So yeast produce esters as a result of stress and they produce the majority of their esters during the growth phase.

Underpitching actually kills two birds with one stone. By under pitching you are extending the growth phase where the yeast are multiplying themself to a proper number to consume the sugar in the wort. By extending this phase, the yeast will produce esters for a longer period. By under pitching, you are increasing stress to the yeast and in return increasing the production of esters.

Temperature can further stress the yeast, leading to even more ester production. So by under pitching and temperature stressing the yeast you can greatly increase the ester profile of your beer.

 

[crusader1612]

So yeast produce esters as a result of stress and they produce the majority of their esters during the growth phase.

Underpitching actually kills two birds with one stone. By under pitching you are extending the growth phase where the yeast are multiplying themself to a proper number to consume the sugar in the wort. By extending this phase, the yeast will produce esters for a longer period. By under pitching, you are increasing stress to the yeast and in return increasing the production of esters.

Temperature can further stress the yeast, leading to even more ester production. So by under pitching and temperature stressing the yeast you can greatly increase the ester profile of your beer.

the question i have is, what is the effect on off-flavours for yeasts like kveik, i haven't heard any problems, but given its a living organism, if you stress it out enough, surely something will happen?

 

[Noob_Brewer]

the question i have is, what is the effect on off-flavours for yeasts like kveik, i haven't heard any problems, but given its a living organism, if you stress it out enough, surely something will happen?

LOL thats what Ive always been afraid of just like the boogie man! With Voss Kviek Ive also read that the esters can be way overpowering too when under pitching and running hot. Ive read somewhere (can't remember where) that the kvieks can run "cleaner" with lower temps but haven't tested that myself yet. So when I've run Voss Kviek (Omega Liquid Yeast), Ive always pitched it at 0.75 and Ive done that on 5 beers ranging in OG from 1.065-1.075. All have had the same temp drive: pitched at 90, let free rise to 95 and then hold until done fermenting which has typically been 72hrs conservatively speaking. None have had off-flavors that I can detect. To me Voss esters are definitely "orange" which I really like, but again with my pitch rates, I don't think Im getting overpowering esters that some get with under pitching.

 

[Dgallo]

the question i have is, what is the effect on off-flavours for yeasts like kveik, i haven't heard any problems, but given its a living organism, if you stress it out enough, surely something will happen?

So you kinda answered your own question in a way, yeast strains are different organisms and handle stress differently. Using your example of kviek strains, they can tolerate high temperature and still properly convert the sugar into ethanol. If you tried to push LAIII over 75*f you’ll most likely experience fusel alcohol off flavors. Some strains don’t produce much esters at all. Belgian strains can be POF+ and produce phenols which are flavor compound but not esters.

This is where the art of brewing comes in. you have to get to know the strains you are working with and experiment with their capabilities.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

So yeast produce esters as a result of stress and they produce the majority of their esters during the growth phase.

Underpitching actually kills two birds with one stone. By under pitching you are extending the growth phase where the yeast are multiplying themself to a proper number to consume the sugar in the wort. By extending this phase, the yeast will produce esters for a longer period. By under pitching, you are increasing stress to the yeast and in return increasing the production of esters.

Temperature can further stress the yeast, leading to even more ester production. So by under pitching and temperature stressing the yeast you can greatly increase the ester profile of your beer.

Thanks @Dgallo for the explanation. That clears up a lot in my head. Based on this explanation and my previous pitch rates, Im assuming that Ive been getting SOME esters from the relatively higher temps which does stress the yeast somewhat but not from my pitch rates (~0.75) which essentially cuts down the growth phase needed compared to under pitching. So I will plan another beer and try 0.6 pitch rate and keep my ferm temp drive the same to start experimenting with developing ester profiles with the beer. Will try this with A24. I am assuming that by under pitching and having a longer growth phase, this is why some peeps report a little longer time lag leading to high krausen? When I pitch at 0.75 with A24, the high krausen seems to always be around the 24hr mark. Loving this new hobby, but so much to learn!

 

[R.A.I.D]

What can I do to avoid hop burn while keeping aroma and flavor at a max?

Looking at this thread I have found the following tips:
- Minimize use of oat
- Use whirlfloc
- Whirlpool at 160 F (71 C) or below
- Hard crash before dry hopping
- Hard crash after dry hopping
- Let the beer mature for 2-3 weeks (3-5 weeks if I used potent hops like Galaxy, Vic Secret or Idaho 7)

Are there more tips?

 

[R.A.I.D]

Flaked Wheat - extremely good for head retention and body. Cause quite a bit of haze but best to be used at 15% and under otherwise it can certainly cause a slight clearing. Adds wheat notes

Sounds like 15 % flaked wheat is a good choice

 

[ryanm8]

Add dry hopping in a large bag to the list. When I do that combined with hard crashing, I get no hop burn. No need to do the rest on your list.

What can I do to avoid hop burn while keeping aroma and flavor at a max?

Looking at this thread I have found the following tips:
- Minimize use of oat
- Use whirlfloc
- Whirlpool at 160 F (71 C) or below
- Hard crash before dry hopping
- Hard crash after dry hopping
- Let the beer mature for 2-3 weeks (3-5 weeks if I used potent hops like Galaxy, Vic Secret or Idaho 7)

Are there more tips?