New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[hezagenius]

So how is everyone adding their dry hops? Loose? Bagged? I have been having some big problems with my last 6-7 batches all were horribly undrinkable. I have a thread going on the fermentation sub forum about it. The current thought is it is hop related and possibly from the massive dry hops not dropping out. I usually leave it in the fermenter between 7-10 days. I have had some great beers using that time frame and some horrible ones. Mostly using WY1318. I typically add 8 oz of loose hops into the primary between day 2-4. Sometimes split it between day 3 and 5. Anyway worried how to handle this going forward if that is my issue. How can I solve that problem? I don't cold crash currently or use any fining agents. I am brewing a batch now and cut my whirlpool and dry hops in half. I also used a bag in the kettle for the whirlpool hops to keep it as clean as possible going into the fermenter.

I toss the hops in commando in the kettle, fermenter and keg. I figure they'll get the most mixing if they can freely move around. My beers look like pea soup coming out of the kettle. I've tried putting them in SS mesh tubes in the keg and I still got some fine particles making their way outside the tubes.

Several things should cut down on unwanted hop flavors:
1. Filter your diptube when transferring to the serving keg
2. Filter your diptube in the serving keg
3. Better yet, use a floating diptube setup like the Clear Beer Draught System. You can put a filter on this as well.
4. Time. Hops will settle out once you get the keg into the kegerator and cool it down. I use a lot of hops, both in the kettle and in the fermenter. When I take samples, you can see all the small hop particles in the beer. It tastes really bad. My beers take a few weeks to mellow out. After 2-3 weeks of carbing and settling, they taste great, and they still maintain their haze. After 4 weeks, they taste even better. And with a floating diptube setup, the beer has zero hop particles in it.

 

[The_Glue]

Just did a NEIPA with 80% pale ale, 20% old DME, mashed really high and for 30 mins only, Burton Union + US05 yeast, OG: 1.072 and 25IBU in the boil and 15IBU in whirlpool. (calculated by Brewers Friend)
Now the beer ended at 1.024(!) and it is the best IPA i ever did. (it is hazy and high Cl and silky, similar to the commercial versions of this style i tried)
Is this normal for this style? Did the yeast just stopped working?

 

[stickyfinger]

if you mashed over 160, that FG is believable. if it’s not too sweet, you just have more dextrins, not maltose

 

[mintyice]

Anyone else feel like the same handful of questions keep popping up? Time to make a FAQ for this recipe/style yet?

 

[TomRep]

When I used liquid yeast, I used to do my starters about five days in advance, chill the night before, and pull it out when I started brewing to decant and warm up. However, now I've been sticking with S04. One packet rehydrated about a half hour into the boil. Been working flawlessly on my 1.078 OG (average) brews, getting them down to 1.010 in two days. I do add a nice dose of oxygen before adding the yeast and purge the head space with co2 after pitching.

 

[EndOfLine]

Scott Janish, @ScottJanish came to one of my home brew clubs last night to talk about some of the latest in NE IPAs! One of the things that caught my interest was the IBU/dry hop relationship. He said that he did a dry hop only beer and did something like 3 ounces of hops and 4 additions (12 ounces) and send the beer out for testing. The result? 77IBUs. Makes you think about how you may hop your beer in the future! There you go sticky fingers. You said it worked first a year ago haha

 

[Biscuits]

Not the recipe from this thread...but it seemed like the right place to share

 

[marjen]

Tried all different ways. Last batch I did loose and added a inline. Details here

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=636379

Cleanest keg ever. First pour, zero debris. Had 10ozs in the conical, did not cold crash, contact time 7-10 days between two charges.

That looks like a nice solution. A little pricey but I might consider that as it looks like it would really provide a good barrier against all the hop crap getting into the keg.

I have a couple Dry hoppers from Arbor Fab. I might try and stick the tube from the kettle into one and use it as a first line filter from the kettle to remove extra grain and hops from the boil and whirlpool for now. That should get me as clean as possible into the fermenter. Eventually I think I might pick one of those up. I also might pick up a cheap filter for the end of my dip tube so when I use my new unitank that can act as a filter out.

 

[leesmith]

Just use whirlfloc, whirlpool, and then let the wort settle for a while before transferring to primary.

 

[Chris-18]

Here is my advice on NEIPA's:

So I haven't been following this thread, but I might add some of my own experience here.
These hazy IPA's are hysterically sensitive to oxygen. The polyphenols from the dryhops are very oxygen sensitive. What actually happens (as I understand it) is that the prenyl leg of the of the hop polyphenols, picks up oxygen, which is more or less the same process as what happens in apples, avocados etc. when they are exposed to oxygen, turning them brown.

Yeast does scavange a lot of oxygen, but that process is too slow to prevent oxidation of the hop compounds. It takes less than 24 hour of oxygen exposure to turn a beer brown.
The more hops a beer contains, the less oxygen exposure you can allow.

This is the exact same beer I made.
The one on the right, was bottled, from a plastic bucket with an autosiphon, with no CO2 purging of any parts, however, I was very careful not to splash any beer.
The one on the left was kegged in a corny keg. The keg was purged 3 times with CO2 and closed transfered from a stainless steel fermenter.
The beer is exactly the same. Take a look at the difference.

Oxidation not only changes the color, but the aroma of the hops, to sort of a dusty/musty aroma. Nothing like fresh hops at all.

So if you want to make a really good NEIPA, you need to keep oxygen out after fermentation. As soon as you add dryhops, you need to keep oxygen out. But the hot side is no problem, as the aroma compounds have either been driven off or izomerized, and thus are less sensitive to oxygen pickup.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

So if you want to make a really good NEIPA, you need to keep oxygen out after fermentation. As soon as you add dryhops, you need to keep oxygen out. But the hot side is no problem, as the aroma compounds have either been driven off or izomerized, and thus are less sensitive to oxygen pickup.

Is there any hope for those of us who bottle to avoid this fate? I have personally experienced just what you pictured above, with the bottled becoming noticeably darker.

 

[Chris-18]

Is there any hope for those of us who bottle to avoid this fate? I have personally experienced just what you pictured above, with the bottled becoming noticeably darker.

Well, if you can get your hands on a CO2 bottle with a regulator, with a hose attached to it, you can purge all your bottles and autosiphon before you bottle. So purging everything with CO2 is your way to go. It's a tad expensive, but you might be able to get a used bottle somewhere for cheap.

Trust me, I thought I was super careful when bottling, but I was introducing oxygen left and right.

So using bottles is no problem, but you need to purge them before bottling, and fill and cap them ASAP, otherwise you won't have a chance.

 

[grassfeeder]

Well, if you can get your hands on a CO2 bottle with a regulator, with a hose attached to it, you can purge all your bottles and autosiphon before you bottle. So purging everything with CO2 is your way to go. It's a tad expensive, but you might be able to get a used bottle somewhere for cheap.

Trust me, I thought I was super careful when bottling, but I was introducing oxygen left and right.

So using bottles is no problem, but you need to purge them before bottling, and fill and cap them ASAP, otherwise you won't have a chance.

exactly. I keg mine and if I want some bottles I purge the bottle with CO2 and fill and cap immediately. This has proven successful but even then I would imagine shelf life has to be somewhat limited. I've gone a month being OK but I'd hesitate going longer.

 

[leesmith]

Here is my advice on NEIPA's:



So I haven't been following this thread, but I might add some of my own experience here.

These hazy IPA's are hysterically sensitive to oxygen. The polyphenols from the dryhops are very oxygen sensitive. What actually happens (as I understand it) is that the prenyl leg of the of the hop polyphenols, picks up oxygen, which is more or less the same process as what happens in apples, avocados etc. when they are exposed to oxygen, turning them brown.



Yeast does scavange a lot of oxygen, but that process is too slow to prevent oxidation of the hop compounds. It takes less than 24 hour of oxygen exposure to turn a beer brown.

The more hops a beer contains, the less oxygen exposure you can allow.



This is the exact same beer I made.

The one on the right, was bottled, from a plastic bucket with an autosiphon, with no CO2 purging of any parts, however, I was very careful not to splash any beer.

The one on the left was kegged in a corny keg. The keg was purged 3 times with CO2 and closed transfered from a stainless steel fermenter.

The beer is exactly the same. Take a look at the difference.

Oxidation not only changes the color, but the aroma of the hops, to sort of a dusty/musty aroma. Nothing like fresh hops at all.



So if you want to make a really good NEIPA, you need to keep oxygen out after fermentation. As soon as you add dryhops, you need to keep oxygen out. But the hot side is no problem, as the aroma compounds have either been driven off or izomerized, and thus are less sensitive to oxygen pickup.

This should be a sticky.

 

[stickyfinger]

Scott Janish, @ScottJanish came to one of my home brew clubs last night to talk about some of the latest in NE IPAs! One of the things that caught my interest was the IBU/dry hop relationship. He said that he did a dry hop only beer and did something like 3 ounces of hops and 4 additions (12 ounces) and send the beer out for testing. The result? 77IBUs. Makes you think about how you may hop your beer in the future! There you go sticky fingers. You said it worked first a year ago haha

it can work well and definitely leaves some bittering. some hops or lots of hops really have a strong bitterness, just from dryhopping. i DO like the round flavor from kettle hops though

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

I kegged my NEIPA, a Sloop Juice Bomb clone, then used a Beer Gun to purge the bottles with Co2 before and after filing them. Is that a cure for preventing oxidation in bottled NEIPA?

 

[JJ900]

Is there any hope for those of us who bottle to avoid this fate? I have personally experienced just what you pictured above, with the bottled becoming noticeably darker.

You can read through the "cannot overcome my hazy ipa oxidation problem" thread but several possible factors to reduce this problem were discussed there like:

-changing from Conan to 1318
-using more hops during the boil, rather than just whirlpool/dry hop
-using potassium metabisulfite
- even grain choice, maybe no crystal malts
- bottle early, yikes
- what else?

Some of these had anecdotal success and some were speculative but it really needs more experimentation.

 

[Chris-18]

You can read through the "cannot overcome my hazy ipa oxidation problem" thread but several possible factors to reduce this problem were discussed there like:

-changing from Conan to 1318
-using more hops during the boil, rather than just whirlpool/dry hop
-using potassium metabisulfite
- even grain choice, maybe no crystal malts
- bottle early, yikes
- what else?

Some of these had anecdotal success and some were speculative but it really needs more experimentation.

I can add something here:

In regards to the POtassium metabisulfite (KMS), do not do it. In commercial practice they use KMS with sodium erythorbate in I believe a 60/40 ratio. So simply adding KMS isn't going to be enough.

Also, some people (I think around 10% of the population) are allergic to sulfites, so anything over 10ppm requires your to label a product as such.
KMS is also a really nasty eye and skin irritant, so you need proper safety equipment if you are going to handle it properly.

So in my mind, KMS is just something you use, when your process isn't optimized - it covers up the brewing flaws, so to speak, but the problems are still there.

Switching yeast, will do nothing to prevent oxidation of the hop polyphenols.

 

[schematix]

Bottle spunding is a potential solution.

 

[JJ900]

I can add something here:

In regards to the POtassium metabisulfite (KMS), do not do it.

Switching yeast, will do nothing to prevent oxidation of the hop polyphenols.

Sorry, I should have said Sodium Metabisulfite

So switching yeast did actually work for a few people. Although there could be other explanations for that fix - there was additional reference material provided in the Bottling/Oxidation thread that described specifically how Conan is actually more problematic with regard to oxidation - have you seen that part of the thread? I'll find it if its of interest.

 

[Sbe2]

Here is my advice on NEIPA's:

So I haven't been following this thread, but I might add some of my own experience here.
These hazy IPA's are hysterically sensitive to oxygen. The polyphenols from the dryhops are very oxygen sensitive. What actually happens (as I understand it) is that the prenyl leg of the of the hop polyphenols, picks up oxygen, which is more or less the same process as what happens in apples, avocados etc. when they are exposed to oxygen, turning them brown.

Yeast does scavange a lot of oxygen, but that process is too slow to prevent oxidation of the hop compounds. It takes less than 24 hour of oxygen exposure to turn a beer brown.
The more hops a beer contains, the less oxygen exposure you can allow.

This is the exact same beer I made.
The one on the right, was bottled, from a plastic bucket with an autosiphon, with no CO2 purging of any parts, however, I was very careful not to splash any beer.
The one on the left was kegged in a corny keg. The keg was purged 3 times with CO2 and closed transfered from a stainless steel fermenter.
The beer is exactly the same. Take a look at the difference.

Oxidation not only changes the color, but the aroma of the hops, to sort of a dusty/musty aroma. Nothing like fresh hops at all.

So if you want to make a really good NEIPA, you need to keep oxygen out after fermentation. As soon as you add dryhops, you need to keep oxygen out. But the hot side is no problem, as the aroma compounds have either been driven off or izomerized, and thus are less sensitive to oxygen pickup.

We need to start our own thread. SHOW US YOUR OXIDIZED NEIPA

 

[EndOfLine]

We need to start our own thread. SHOW US YOUR OXIDIZED NEIPA

Lol!! How depressing

 

[TimmyWit]

I kegged my NEIPA, a Sloop Juice Bomb clone, then used a Beer Gun to purge the bottles with Co2 before and after filing them. Is that a cure for preventing oxidation in bottled NEIPA?

That's exactly what a friend and I did for a local competition and it worked well. So well that it actually took the grand prize which includes a brew day at Urban Chestnut and it will be on tap at the brewery. Much thanks to all the advice in this thread! While I thought it was a great beer, I'm still shocked at the results.

FWIW, it was bottled on 30 September and I don't think they did the judging until 17 October so it held up just fine even over two weeks in the bottle.

 

[Jmash]

Yeah I always use the beer gun when I'm giving bottles to friends. It works great.

 

[schematix]

A beer gun on its own is not sufficient to reduce oxygen in the bottle to what is considered to be acceptable level. It's *much* better than just filling a bottle, but it's still not enough.

In a homebrew competition it's very probable most other competitors bottled in a similar fashion though so in essence everyone was on equal ground with respect to oxidation.

The best bottling method i've seen involves purging the bottles while they are inverted in a bucket of water/sanitizer. A cap is placed over the bottle before it's taken from the water... a hassle for sure, but works quite well.

It's also critically important to cap onto a stack of foam so all the air in the cap is displaced. Once the bottle is filled and overflows slightly, remove the beer gun almost all the way, and give it a slight shot of CO2 to agitate it, causing it to foam, then immediate place a cap on it and crank it down.

 

[TimmyWit]

A beer gun on its own is not sufficient to reduce oxygen in the bottle to what is considered to be acceptable level. It's *much* better than just filling a bottle, but it's still not enough.

In a homebrew competition it's very probable most other competitors bottled in a similar fashion though so in essence everyone was on equal ground with respect to oxidation.

The best bottling method i've seen involves purging the bottles while they are inverted in a bucket of water/sanitizer. A cap is placed over the bottle before it's taken from the water... a hassle for sure, but works quite well.

On a commercial bottling line, is every bottle inverted and purged?

These BJCP judges are pretty on top of it. If there was a hint of oxidation at 2+ weeks in the bottle, it would be mentioned. They judge all of the beers on a BJCP scorecard. It's not like they just say "well, they're all oxidized but this one is better than that one".

Saying a beer gun isn't enough is very subjective. I'm amazed at what these judges can detect. Their palate generally seems to be far more refined than mine and if they can't detect a hint of oxidation at 17 days, it's certainly good enough for me.

 

[Braufessor]

A beer gun on its own is not sufficient to reduce oxygen in the bottle to what is considered to be acceptable level. It's *much* better than just filling a bottle, but it's still not enough.

In a homebrew competition it's very probable most other competitors bottled in a similar fashion though so in essence everyone was on equal ground with respect to oxidation.

The best bottling method i've seen involves purging the bottles while they are inverted in a bucket of water/sanitizer. A cap is placed over the bottle before it's taken from the water... a hassle for sure, but works quite well.

It's also critically important to cap onto a stack of foam so all the air in the cap is displaced. Once the bottle is filled and overflows slightly, remove the beer gun almost all the way, and give it a slight shot of CO2 to agitate it, causing it to foam, then immediate place a cap on it and crank it down.

Actually, a beer gun can be about as good as it gets. I attended a session at NHC this summer with New Belgium as the presenters. It was on oxidation in beer. It was pretty informative overall. But, one of the more interesting things was that they used a variety of methods to fill bottles at their brewery and then tested them with their DO equipment - top end stuff. They tested beers from their bottling line, bottles filled from taps with hose, bottles with beer guns with various levels of care. By far..... the lowest readings came from CO2 purged Beer gun bottles. Nothing crazy - 5-10 second purge and fill, cap on foam. Low single/double digit ppb on the DO when tested. They said a person taking some care with a beer gun could easily exceed what a commercial bottling line could ever do.

Scroll down in this power point and you can see the test results toward the end. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/...emistry-Sensory-Evaluation-and-Prevention.pdf

Presentation - https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/...ation-Sensory-Evaluation-And-Prevention-1.m4v

 

[schematix]

On a commercial bottling line, is every bottle inverted and purged?

No that’s a home brew hack.

Commercially it depends on the exact equipment, but the high end ones built by the likes of Krones and used by the big brewers will do 3 vacuum purge cycles, then fill from the bottom, then foam the beer using hot deoxygenated water, put a cap on it and seal it all within a few seconds.

Capping on foam is the most important step.

 

[hellomynameisryan]

I brewed this recipe at the beginning of the Summer and am just finishing drinking the last few bottles.
Not being overly familiar with the style, it seemed like a fun experiment. Can't say I was a huge fan. I'm not sure if I did something wrong, but this was definitely not a favourite of mine. Oh well, live and learn!

 

[tld6008]

I brewed this recipe at the beginning of the Summer and am just finishing drinking the last few bottles.
Not being overly familiar with the style, it seemed like a fun experiment. Can't say I was a huge fan. I'm not sure if I did something wrong, but this was definitely not a favourite of mine. Oh well, live and learn!

What was your bottling method?
I did the same and took no extra precautions when bottling other than filling from bottom and minimal head space. I use all grolsch type bottles so they were capped immediately.
I thought the beer was exceptional but definitely changed drastically within 10 days, taste & aroma fell off and it turned a darker color. Consistent with what has been described by many here.
I am today going to keg my second batch and I feel that it will be fantastic.

 

[hopjedi]

Russian

 

[dukedevil0]

Brewed up another batch over the weekend. Doing 1.5:1.5:1.0 Citra/Mosaic/Galaxy....looking forward to it.

 

[eastcoastbrewer]

Can you experienced brewers critique this NEIPA. Its going to be a BIAB beer.

Water:

2.5 gallons fermenter vol

Grains:

2.25lb Golden Promise
2.25lb 2-Row
.5lb flaked oats
.5lb flaked wheat

Hops:

1oz Amarillo
2oz Citra
2oz Galaxy
2oz Mosaic

Yeast: Wyeast 1318

Going to follow the hop addition timing on the first page. Let me know if i should change anything. Thanks guys

 

[marjen]

Might want to pick a different bittering hop. Not sure Amerillo is good for that. Something ike CTZ/columbus/Warrior might be a better choice.

 

[stickyfinger]

Might want to pick a different bittering hop. Not sure Amerillo is good for that. Something ike CTZ/columbus/Warrior might be a better choice.

What is the highest alpha but also not unpleasant bittering hop so as to avoid extra hop matter in the boil (without having to deal with syringes of hop extract for bittering?) I have been using Apollo with good results and was thinking Summit might work well too. Both are like 18% AA. I guess I could toss in some CTZ cryohops for bittering. They are over 20%AA

 

[Shenanigans]

What is the highest alpha but also not unpleasant bittering hop so as to avoid extra hop matter in the boil (without having to deal with syringes of hop extract for bittering?) I have been using Apollo with good results and was thinking Summit might work well too. Both are like 18% AA. I guess I could toss in some CTZ cryohops for bittering. They are over 20%AA

Taurus, Warrior and Nugget are other possibilities.

 

[tld6008]

Here is my attempt at the glorious NEIPA following the Profs 1418 edited recipe, I followed to the best of my ability from the Blonde Ale yeast harvest to txfr to Corney keg though top (I pushed with C02). Only difference was I added both dry hop additions at day 2 of fermentation (high krausen) and I cold crashed for 2 days starting at day 10. Carbed for 2 days @ 25 psi and drinking now! I am very happy with the results.
Please excuse blatant ad for my favorite brewery and my dinner.

 

[Braufessor]

Just got a batch on tap that is really good. 1418 recipe. 1318 yeast. Hops =
2 x 6 ounce addtion.

1x 6 ounces in kettle after flame out.
1x6 ounce addition at day two of fermentation

3:Citra
1: Centennial
1: Simcoe
1: Mosaic

 

[WiscoBrewer]

Just got a batch on tap that is really good. 1418 recipe. 1318 yeast. Hops =
2 x 6 ounce addtion.

1x 6 ounces in kettle after flame out.
1x6 ounce addition at day two of fermentation

3:Citra
1: Centennial
1: Simcoe
1: Mosaic

I did something similar to this
Similar grain bill WLP007 yeast
1: Cascade
1: Centennial
1: Simcoe
@ 45 and 30
2: Citra
1: Cascade
1: Centennial
1: Smicoe
@ 5
3: Citra
1: Cascade
1: Centennial
1: Simcoe
@ FO and WP
3: Citra
1: Centennial
1: Simcoe
DH x 2

Took 1st for IPA in a local competition (average score of 39.5) as well as people's choice, I'll be brewing this a Working Draft Beer Company after it opens in December.

 

[berndawg84]

What is the highest alpha but also not unpleasant bittering hop so as to avoid extra hop matter in the boil (without having to deal with syringes of hop extract for bittering?) I have been using Apollo with good results and was thinking Summit might work well too. Both are like 18% AA. I guess I could toss in some CTZ cryohops for bittering. They are over 20%AA

As was mentioned, I would go with Magnum or Warrior. Those are 2 of the best hops for just clean bittering, and due to the high AA content you won't need much in a 5gal batch, maybe an ounce or so. Other ones like Amarillo may just introduce additional flavors you may not want. In my experience, for an NEIPA it's best to not go for any flavoring from the bittering addition. Most of the flavor will get "boiled off" anyways.