New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[stickyfinger]

Unfortunately, my beer seems to have lost it's way.

It was great out of the fermenter...super juicy and flavorful. I closed transferred to a CO2 purged keg, added my dry hops with CO2 on and purged 6 times at 30PSI after closing the lid. I kept it at room temp for 5 days and then moved it to the kegerator at 36F to cool and get ready to serve.

The first couple of pints were excellent last Tuesday. Since then it's been a quick decline. It doesn't have much aroma anymore, it's not really juice but rather just cloudy, and it tastes rather thin. I shook the keg a bit and got some aroma back temporarily but I'm perplexed...what could have gone wrong?

My only conclusion is that this Imperial Juice yeast floculates too much and the yeast took all the hop aroma/flavor with them to the bottom of the keg. The fact that I get more aroma when I swirl the keg seems to support that theory.

Any other ideas?

you could try adding all of the dry hops to primary and none to the keg. try another yeast - wlp095, conan, WY1318. add no finings. use fresh hops. just some quick thoughts.

 

[ejf063]

Anyone use WLP008 (east coast ale) for this style beer yet?

I'll be doing just that this weekend...... But I too am wondering if it has been used by anyone yet.

10 gallon batch, split in 2. one with WLP008, the other with Omega DIPA

 

[stickyfinger]

Has anyone done a comparison b/w using a hop stand and using dry hops (or HS + DH vs DH)? I think I'm going to try a comparison for my next split batch.

 

[armenianbrewer]

I'm about to transfer from my dry hopping keg to my drinking keg tonight but way too much hop gunk went into my dry hopping keg so I wont be able to force transfer it from one keg to the next unfortunately because the poppets will clog... so I'm going to have to do the old auto siphon from one keg to the next

I feel like I'm going to oxidize this beer far more than I want but not much I can do about it at the moment

What's the main issue with oxygen in this beer? Darkening of the beer and loss of hop flavor?

Why does it darken and why does the hop flavor diminish so fast, does anyone know? I thought hops were a preservative for flavor stability as well as antibacterial

 

[armenianbrewer]

I'll be doing just that this weekend...... But I too am wondering if it has been used by anyone yet.

10 gallon batch, split in 2. one with WLP008, the other with Omega DIPA

Awesome! Definitely let us know how that works out if you can

 

[stickyfinger]

What's the main issue with oxygen in this beer? Darkening of the beer and loss of hop flavor?

Why does it darken and why does the hop flavor diminish so fast, does anyone know? I thought hops were a preservative for flavor stability as well as antibacterial

Most people think of hops as a preservative due to the bittering component, which can inhibit wild yeasts and possibly other microbes.

As far as oxygen, it is well-known in food science that oxygen is the enemy of freshness. Oxygen is an "oxidizer" compound that readily reacts with other compounds (which get "oxidized".) The reactions that oxygen go through with beer components largely result in compounds with flavor profiles that are less delicious than the unoxidized compounds. So, in almost all cases, oxygen is bad for beer. Browning is a common side-effect of oxidation, think of apricots that are sulfited vs ones that are not sulfited. The sulfited ones have a very fresh, crisp flavor and are very orange. The non-sulfited ones are brown and have much more of a jammy/canned/"oxidized" flavor.

If oxygen is around in the beer, it WILL react with something, whatever it bumps into that is amenable to the reaction. So, the less oxygen you have around, the less likely it is that you will get staling in the beer. Though, it will still occur without oxygen around, as there are other reactions that take place without oxygen.

I think the hop flavor leaves faster than we'd like because there are delicious compounds in the hops that are very reactive with oxygen. Some of them may be more unstable than others and are more likely to degrade to less pleasant or unpleasant flavors. Malt flavors seem to be very stable, likely because the compounds responsible for those flavors are not damaged by oxygen.

 

[Braufessor]

I'm about to transfer from my dry hopping keg to my drinking keg tonight but way too much hop gunk went into my dry hopping keg so I wont be able to force transfer it from one keg to the next unfortunately because the poppets will clog... so I'm going to have to do the old auto siphon from one keg to the next

I feel like I'm going to oxidize this beer far more than I want but not much I can do about it at the moment

What's the main issue with oxygen in this beer? Darkening of the beer and loss of hop flavor?

Why does it darken and why does the hop flavor diminish so fast, does anyone know? I thought hops were a preservative for flavor stability as well as antibacterial

If you can..... Take the poppets out and maybe even take the guts out of the two disconnects..... that will prevent clogging. Yes - you will still then get some gunk into your serving keg..... but, it should be minimal - especially if you get the full keg where you want it a few hours before transfer and let it settle out.

Then, once transfer is complete, take the post off the serving keg, dunk it in star san and put the poppet back in and reattach. Purge head space multiple times to push out any oxygen.

 

[armenianbrewer]

Most people think of hops as a preservative due to the bittering component, which can inhibit wild yeasts and possibly other microbes.

As far as oxygen, it is well-known in food science that oxygen is the enemy of freshness. Oxygen is an "oxidizer" compound that readily reacts with other compounds (which get "oxidized".) The reactions that oxygen go through with beer components largely result in compounds with flavor profiles that are less delicious than the unoxidized compounds. So, in almost all cases, oxygen is bad for beer. Browning is a common side-effect of oxidation, think of apricots that are sulfited vs ones that are not sulfited. The sulfited ones have a very fresh, crisp flavor and are very orange. The non-sulfited ones are brown and have much more of a jammy/canned/"oxidized" flavor.

If oxygen is around in the beer, it WILL react with something, whatever it bumps into that is amenable to the reaction. So, the less oxygen you have around, the less likely it is that you will get staling in the beer. Though, it will still occur without oxygen around, as there are other reactions that take place without oxygen.

I think the hop flavor leaves faster than we'd like because there are delicious compounds in the hops that are very reactive with oxygen. Some of them may be more unstable than others and are more likely to degrade to less pleasant or unpleasant flavors. Malt flavors seem to be very stable, likely because the compounds responsible for those flavors are not damaged by oxygen.

Okay well now that makes a ton of sense... guess I'll just have to drink faster or invite more people over to drink my beer.. haha.

Also, as a side note does the oxidation process happen any differently at room temperatures vs cold keg temperatures?

 

[cheesebach]

Ultimately what I'm wondering is if the settling of the yeast associated with cold crashing would cause the beer to clear and ultimately take some of the flavor with it?

If you're willing to do the extra work and experiment a bit, you could cold crash after fermentation is complete to help drop the yeast out and then bring it back up to your fermentation temp and add the 2nd charge of dry hops. This would help limit the amount of hop compounds that bind with yeast and then settle out, since there won't be as much yeast in suspension when the last dry hops are added. I'd only try this though if you can do the cold crash under co2 - otherwise, the oxidation you get from the suck-back during cold crashing would probably negate any shelf life longevity benefits you get. Also, just increasing the amount of dry hops used could probably help compensate for the hops that are binding with the yeast and settling out.

 

[armenianbrewer]

If you can..... Take the poppets out and maybe even take the guts out of the two disconnects..... that will prevent clogging. Yes - you will still then get some gunk into your serving keg..... but, it should be minimal - especially if you get the full keg where you want it a few hours before transfer and let it settle out.

Then, once transfer is complete, take the post off the serving keg, dunk it in star san and put the poppet back in and reattach. Purge head space multiple times to push out any oxygen.

I will try that but for the life of me I couldnt get the poppets off this recently purchased used keg... I soaked the hell out of it with pbw twice with a concetrated dose, and pushed the pbw out to clean everything then did the same with star san... if I can get the poppet off I can definitely try that method out... if not then autosiphon transfer it is

 

[plazola86]

I will try that but for the life of me I couldnt get the poppets off this recently purchased used keg... I soaked the hell out of it with pbw twice with a concetrated dose, and pushed the pbw out to clean everything then did the same with star san... if I can get the poppet off I can definitely try that method out... if not then autosiphon transfer it is

I had a keg plug up on me once and I never want to deal with that again. I went and bought an inline from fermenter to keg filter that filters down to 100 micron. Less than $20 on vacmotion.com

 

[armenianbrewer]

I had a keg plug up on me once and I never want to deal with that again. I went and bought an inline from fermenter to keg filter that filters down to 100 micron. Less than $20 on vacmotion.com

Absolute genius! When it first floods the filter, does any splashing or aeration occurs? This will be my go to method from transferring from my SS BrewBucket to keg now... I've had poppet clog on me recently and I never want to deal with that **** again... remove/clean/sanitize/reattach/repressurize... what a PAIN it was


I do like this idea though...

 

[Braufessor]

I will try that but for the life of me I couldnt get the poppets off this recently purchased used keg... I soaked the hell out of it with pbw twice with a concetrated dose, and pushed the pbw out to clean everything then did the same with star san... if I can get the poppet off I can definitely try that method out... if not then autosiphon transfer it is

Yeah - that is a little hit and miss. Sometimes they come out super easy. Some don't seem to want to come out at all. I have a couple kegs I cannot get the poppets out of.

 

[plazola86]

Absolute genius! When it first floods the filter, does any splashing or aeration occurs? This will be my go to method from transferring from my SS BrewBucket to keg now... I've had poppet clog on me recently and I never want to deal with that **** again... remove/clean/sanitize/reattach/repressurize... what a PAIN it was


I do like this idea though...

I control the flow through the spigot so that it floods slowly, there are some bubbles but I haven't noticed an off flavor. I drink my kegs fast though, they don't last for more than two weeks!

 

[Rdom]

Plazola, is that a fermonster you're fermenting in? Any problems with leaking at the spigot hole? Would you recommend it? Was considering getting some.

 

[stickyfinger]

Okay well now that makes a ton of sense... guess I'll just have to drink faster or invite more people over to drink my beer.. haha.



Also, as a side note does the oxidation process happen any differently at room temperatures vs cold keg temperatures?

most reactions go faster at hotter temps, including oxidation

 

[Sbe2]

Plazola, is that a fermonster you're fermenting in? Any problems with leaking at the spigot hole? Would you recommend it? Was considering getting some.

I have a fermonster, and I have had problems with it leaking between the O-Rings on the spigot. I think it is due to over tightening. Before adding my wort to it, i sanitize with starsan and make sure it's not leaking.

I can only compare it with my 5 gallon better bottle. I love the wide mouth for cleaning purposes and it seals nice. Of course I would prefer a brew bucket or conical.

I will be upgrading to a keg system soon and glad to see how someone transfers (Plazola)with a setup the same as mine.

 

[plazola86]

Plazola, is that a fermonster you're fermenting in? Any problems with leaking at the spigot hole? Would you recommend it? Was considering getting some.

Yeah that's a fermonster. I've never had a problem with it leaking and I remove and reinstall the spigot ever time to clean it. Just remember not to over tighten or else it will warp the silicone. That's probably the issue that most people run into. I highly recommend them, cheaper than the big mouth bubblers.

 

[Rdom]

Thanks to both of you!

 

[jbedell2]

Plazola, is that a fermonster you're fermenting in? Any problems with leaking at the spigot hole? Would you recommend it? Was considering getting some.

I bought two Fermonsters last year and have been using them for about 6 months. Overall I'm not very happy with them.

I have only had the spigot seal leak once, and it was pretty minor, but enough to grow a bunch of mold on the outside of the seal.

The two biggest problems are:
1) The spigot is low enough that I can't really use it, especially with this heavily dry-hopped beer. It's basically covered by trub by the time I'm ready to transfer.
2) The lid is a PITA to seal, and to get off once sealed. You have to really crank down on it to get enough of a seal for the airlock to bubble, and once you've done that it's really, really hard to get off.

Since I can't use the spigot and can't get the lid off, I wind up just using an autosiphon through the stopper hole, which is lame.

I wish I had paid a little more for a better fermentor, and will probably get rid of these soon.

 

[plazola86]

I bought two Fermonsters last year and have been using them for about 6 months. Overall I'm not very happy with them.

I have only had the spigot seal leak once, and it was pretty minor, but enough to grow a bunch of mold on the outside of the seal.

The two biggest problems are:
1) The spigot is low enough that I can't really use it, especially with this heavily dry-hopped beer. It's basically covered by trub by the time I'm ready to transfer.
2) The lid is a PITA to seal, and to get off once sealed. You have to really crank down on it to get enough of a seal for the airlock to bubble, and once you've done that it's really, really hard to get off.

Since I can't use the spigot and can't get the lid off, I wind up just using an autosiphon through the stopper hole, which is lame.

I wish I had paid a little more for a better fermentor, and will probably get rid of these soon.

@Rdom I think I found a deal on fermonsters for you!

 

[duelerx]

I had a keg plug up on me once and I never want to deal with that again. I went and bought an inline from fermenter to keg filter that filters down to 100 micron. Less than $20 on vacmotion.com

Can you purge it with CO2?

 

[plazola86]

Can you purge it with CO2?

I installed a quick disconnect so if you have an empty keg full of CO2 as soon as you connect it the CO2 will travel through it. Not sure if that counts as purging though?

 

[hezagenius]

Has anyone tried brewing using pilsner malt instead of 2-row?, not sure if this could make a difference.

I've got a batch I'm transferring to my serving keg tonight that used equal amounts pilsner and pale ale malt for the base. The color was nice and straw-like when I racked to the dry hop keg.

Using just pale ale malt as the base was nice. There was some breadiness to it and the color was a beautiful orange. I'd like to lighten it up just a tad but keep some of pale ale malt flavor

This was the picture going into the dry hop keg on day 4.

 

[murphyslaw]

Is it normal to get a green floating layer like this? I used to always bag my hops so I'm hoping it's normal when you don't bag em.

This morning I swirled it and it fell. When I got home from work it was back. I just decided to go ahead and cold crash, trying the plastic bag suck back solution.

Also, Im on batch 3 or 4 with my fermonster and I love it. No leaks. No problem tightening it. I did find it almost impossible to get the lid off, but I bought a $5 rubber loop grip thing and have no trouble now. The only negative is that it's thin plastic which makes it hard to carry. You really have to have a brew hauler.

View attachment 1493941343790.jpg

 

[PissyFingers]

heres my 5th batch with Citra/Galaxy/Nelson and Mosaic. Fermented with 095 and 644, juicey as a mofo.:fro:

 

[Hannabrew]

If you're willing to do the extra work and experiment a bit, you could cold crash after fermentation is complete to help drop the yeast out and then bring it back up to your fermentation temp and add the 2nd charge of dry hops. This would help limit the amount of hop compounds that bind with yeast and then settle out, since there won't be as much yeast in suspension when the last dry hops are added. I'd only try this though if you can do the cold crash under co2 - otherwise, the oxidation you get from the suck-back during cold crashing would probably negate any shelf life longevity benefits you get. Also, just increasing the amount of dry hops used could probably help compensate for the hops that are binding with the yeast and settling out.

This is what I was thinking of trying but then it extends the time before I can drink it and of course we're up against the clock. If others that have brewed this recipe haven't had this problem I'm going to chalk it up to the Imperial Yeast.

 

[crusader1612]

heres my 5th batch with Citra/Galaxy/Nelson and Mosaic. Fermented with 095 and 644, juicey as a mofo.:fro:

a co pitch of both yeasts?
If so, can you give details on how you grew up each yeast?

 

[duelerx]

I've got a batch I'm transferring to my serving keg tonight that used equal amounts pilsner and pale ale malt for the base. The color was nice and straw-like when I racked to the dry hop keg.

Using just pale ale malt as the base was nice. There was some breadiness to it and the color was a beautiful orange. I'd like to lighten it up just a tad but keep some of pale ale malt flavor

This was the picture going into the dry hop keg on day 4.

Thanks for the picture!, do you prefer the flavor of the blend of pilsner malt or just the pale malt?

 

[duelerx]

I installed a quick disconnect so if you have an empty keg full of CO2 as soon as you connect it the CO2 will travel through it. Not sure if that counts as purging though?

Yeah that is what i was thinking.

 

[doublebogey10]

I plan on brewing one of these soon, with a combination of Citra, Mosaic and Vic Secret. Never had a beer with Vic Secret but I've heard it's great. I'm using the WeldWerks Juicy Bits recipe as a base and have tweaked it slightly. They use Citra, Mosaic and El Dorado as their hop combo for FWH, then flameout and whirlpool.

...

I think El Dorado is really underrated for this style. I've used it twice, in various combinations and both were terrific.

 

[doublebogey10]

For those who use 1318 how do you get your fg lower than 1.020? I have a hard time getting it to ferment out more than that in the few times I've used it. I do make yeast starters. I want my beer a little dryer than what I've been getting.

I have a Galaxy/Mosaic hazy pale in keg now that finished a 1.012 with 1318. Healthy starter/good aeration at pitching/ferment around 67 and then ramp to 71 or 72 before crashing. 15 days grain to glass.

 

[Hannabrew]

@Rdom I think I found a deal on fermonsters for you!

I have 2 7 gallon Fermonsters and love them.

Any leaking is likely due to overtighening.

The lid issue is slightly annoying but from everything I've read about other PET wide mouth carboys, it's the lesser of all evils. Getting it on is not an issue but getting it off was challenging until I bought a strap wrench and now it's pretty easy.

If you use one I'd highly recommend skipping the airlock in favor of a blow off tube due to the suckback. With the weird weather we get in Chicago in March I was having to fill the airlock every day.

 

[Hannabrew]

Is it normal to get a green floating layer like this? I used to always bag my hops so I'm hoping it's normal when you don't bag em.

This morning I swirled it and it fell. When I got home from work it was back. I just decided to go ahead and cold crash, trying the plastic bag suck back solution.

Also, Im on batch 3 or 4 with my fermonster and I love it. No leaks. No problem tightening it. I did find it almost impossible to get the lid off, but I bought a $5 rubber loop grip thing and have no trouble now. The only negative is that it's thin plastic which makes it hard to carry. You really have to have a brew hauler.

what's the ziplock bag trick? Fill it with CO2 I assume? How is it connected to the bung?

 

[murphyslaw]

what's the ziplock bag trick? Fill it with CO2 I assume? How is it connected to the bung?

That's right. A zip lock full of co2 with a hose coming out of the corner that extend through the bung. Ive never tried it before.

 

[leesmith]

Is it normal to get a green floating layer like this? I used to always bag my hops so I'm hoping it's normal when you don't bag em.

This morning I swirled it and it fell. When I got home from work it was back. I just decided to go ahead and cold crash, trying the plastic bag suck back solution.

Also, Im on batch 3 or 4 with my fermonster and I love it. No leaks. No problem tightening it. I did find it almost impossible to get the lid off, but I bought a $5 rubber loop grip thing and have no trouble now. The only negative is that it's thin plastic which makes it hard to carry. You really have to have a brew hauler.

How many days into the fermentation was this?

 

[Hannabrew]

That's right. A zip lock full of co2 with a hose coming out of the corner that extend through the bung. Ive never tried it before.

How do you get an airtight seal on the hose coming into the ziplock?

 

[murphyslaw]

How many days into the fermentation was this?

14 days.

I'm down to 4*C and it hasn't budged. I just swirled it again to knock it down.

I've noticed this before, but apparently it didn't make it into my normally copious notes and I don't remember which beer or if or when it went away. I suspect it was my first shot at this recipe, which came out great. The current batch is my second with this recipe.

How do you get an airtight seal on the hose coming into the ziplock?

The hose doesn't come through the zipper. I cut a tiny hole in the bottom corner, shoved the hose through it, and then wraped electrical tape around it. It's probably not perfect, but as long as the bag is full of co2, I think the pressure should be outwards, rather than o2 coming in. I think?

I flushed it from the zipper side, then sealed it, then filled it from the tube.

 

[leesmith]

14 days.

I'm down to 4*C and it hasn't budged. I just swirled it again to knock it down.

I've noticed this before, but apparently it didn't make it into my normally copious notes and I don't remember which beer or if or when it went away. I suspect it was my first shot at this recipe, which came out great. The current batch is my second with this recipe.

Weird...usually they drop out after a few days and a couple swirls. And I don't cold crash. Come to think of it, I had a bag of Amarillo pellet hops that didn't like to drop out during dry hopping. When they dissolved there was a lot of plant material instead of more powder. I dry hop differently now but I used to use a fine mesh bag tied over the racking cane to prevent clogs. Worked good.

 

[hezagenius]

Thanks for the picture!, do you prefer the flavor of the blend of pilsner malt or just the pale malt?

It's still got a pretty raw hop flavor so I can't say how it will taste just yet. This is my first time using pilsner malt. I like to give my beers a week or two to settle down in the keg. Before that, the rawness of the hops tends to dominate for me.