New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[berndawg84]

Hope this isn't too much of a thread hijack. Wanted to get some feedback on the hopping for this NE IPA. I'm pretty set with the grain bill. I used WeldWerks Juicy Bits IPA as a basis. According to Brewer's Friend, the calculated IBU for this is only 33, but I'm guessing it'll taste more bitter than this due to flameout hops and whirlpool hops? Also, has anyone used Vic Secret in a NE IPA? Seems like an intriguing option. The WeldWerks beer uses Citra, Mosaic and El Dorado, so I'm just tweaking that slightly. Thanks.




Juice Bomb


Method: BIAB
Style: American IPA
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 3 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 5 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.038 (recipe based estimate)
Efficiency: 65% (brew house)







Original Gravity:

1.063


Final Gravity:

1.016


ABV (standard):

6.26%


IBU (tinseth):

33.14


SRM (morey):

4.49









Fermentables

Amount Fermentable PPG °L Bill %
6.3 lb American - Pale 2-Row 37 1.8 78%
0.7 lb Flaked Wheat 34 2 8.7%
0.7 lb Flaked Oats 33 2.2 8.7%
6 oz American - Carapils (Dextrine Malt) 33 1.8 4.6%
8.08 lb Total


Hops

Amount Variety Type AA Use Time IBU
0.2 oz Citra Pellet 11 First Wort 9.47
0.2 oz Mosaic Pellet 12.5 First Wort 10.76
0.2 oz Vic Secret Pellet 15 First Wort 12.91
0.1 oz Citra Pellet 11 Boil 0 min
0.15 oz Mosaic Pellet 12.5 Boil 0 min
0.1 oz Vic Secret Pellet 15 Boil 0 min
0.1 oz Citra Pellet 11 Whirlpool at °F 40 min
0.1 oz Mosaic Pellet 12.5 Whirlpool at °F 40 min
0.1 oz Vic Secret Pellet 15 Whirlpool at °F 40 min
0.22 oz Citra Pellet 11 Whirlpool at °F 30 min
0.22 oz Mosaic Pellet 12.5 Whirlpool at °F 30 min
0.22 oz Vic Secret Pellet 15 Whirlpool at °F 30 min
0.6 oz Citra Pellet 11 Whirlpool at °F 20 min
0.3 oz Mosaic Pellet 12.5 Whirlpool at °F 20 min
0.3 oz Vic Secret Pellet 15 Whirlpool at °F 20 min
0.5 oz Citra Pellet 11 Dry Hop 4 days
0.5 oz Mosaic Pellet 12.5 Dry Hop 4 days
0.5 oz Vic Secret Pellet 15 Dry Hop 4 days
0.33 oz Citra Pellet 11 Dry Hop 8 days
0.65 oz Mosaic Pellet 12.5 Dry Hop 8 days
0.33 oz Vic Secret Pellet 15 Dry Hop 8 days


Hops Summary

Amount Variety Type AA
2.05 oz Citra Pellet 11
2.12 oz Mosaic Pellet 12.5
1.75 oz Vic Secret Pellet 15


Mash Guidelines

Amount Description Type Temp Time
-- Infusion 149 F 60 min


Yeast


Wyeast - London Ale III 1318

 

[stickyfinger]

OK, I don't want to mislead anyone, but I have done a few more comparisons in the style. I've done a couple with hops in the kettle, one with a big 20-minute addition and another with a 90 minute hop stand. I loved them at first, but they have not aged as well as my dry-hop only batches. Was it due to the kettle hops or some other factor? I don't know. I feel like I was getting some very consistent, repeatable, long-lasting hop flavor when I was doing only dry hopping. I think I'll go back to that.

The other confounding variable is that my latest batch using the 90 minute hop stand also used WLP002 as the yeast. I liked it a ton at first, but it hasn't aged super well. It is still good, but it has cleared up pretty quickly and lost some hop character before I thought it would. I am starting to wonder if the yeast hanging around in suspension is helping these beers maybe? My favorite yeasts so far are WLP095, GigaYeast Conan and WY1318.

The WLP095 is just a super solid yeast, very repeatable, long-lasting hop flavor, perfect. The GigaYeast Conan was of a similar character to the WLP095 and super cloudy for a long time. WY1318 has a sort of unique, strange flavor profile that seems to get better and better as the keg ages, weirdly. It makes for a super hazy beer for a long time and long-lasting hop character. I'd love to see a comparison of all three in the same wort with no kettle hops and a huge dry hop. I suppose one day I'll have to try that.

Oh, the other thing I am wondering about is the usage of kettle fining. I have a feeling that maybe omitting kettle finings might beneficial to the style. I'd have to do a side by side to compare though of course. It seems like it certainly leads to a hazier beer if you omit them!

Love this style, one of the best!

 

[BrewinSoldier]

OK, I don't want to mislead anyone, but I have done a few more comparisons in the style. I've done a couple with hops in the kettle, one with a big 20-minute addition and another with a 90 minute hop stand. I loved them at first, but they have not aged as well as my dry-hop only batches. Was it due to the kettle hops or some other factor? I don't know. I feel like I was getting some very consistent, repeatable, long-lasting hop flavor when I was doing only dry hopping. I think I'll go back to that.

The other confounding variable is that my latest batch using the 90 minute hop stand also used WLP002 as the yeast. I liked it a ton at first, but it hasn't aged super well. It is still good, but it has cleared up pretty quickly and lost some hop character before I thought it would. I am starting to wonder if the yeast hanging around in suspension is helping these beers maybe? My favorite yeasts so far are WLP095, GigaYeast Conan and WY1318.

The WLP095 is just a super solid yeast, very repeatable, long-lasting hop flavor, perfect. The GigaYeast Conan was of a similar character to the WLP095 and super cloudy for a long time. WY1318 has a sort of unique, strange flavor profile that seems to get better and better as the keg ages, weirdly. It makes for a super hazy beer for a long time and long-lasting hop character. I'd love to see a comparison of all three in the same wort with no kettle hops and a huge dry hop. I suppose one day I'll have to try that.

Oh, the other thing I am wondering about is the usage of kettle fining. I have a feeling that maybe omitting kettle finings might beneficial to the style. I'd have to do a side by side to compare though of course. It seems like it certainly leads to a hazier beer if you omit them!

Love this style, one of the best!

Interesting. So if you aren't making any kettle additions, where are you getting your bitterness from?

I just did version #2 of this and used gigayeast Conan. Suprisingly, it came out pretty clear and not cloudy. I never use kettle finings or gelatin to the keg on this style. This is the second time I've used citra from the same batch, and I have a weird taste in this one. I had the same weird taste in my Pliny the Younger clone I did quite a while back with the same citra batch of hops. I think my hops might be bad. I was hoping to see what the difference in flavor would be with this yeast vs the 1318 I used last time. Bummer.

 

[stickyfinger]

Interesting. So if you aren't making any kettle additions, where are you getting your bitterness from?

I'm often satisified with the bitterness I get from the dryhop alone.

I just did version #2 of this and used gigayeast Conan. Suprisingly, it came out pretty clear and not cloudy. I never use kettle finings or gelatin to the keg on this style. This is the second time I've used citra from the same batch, and I have a weird taste in this one. I had the same weird taste in my Pliny the Younger clone I did quite a while back with the same citra batch of hops. I think my hops might be bad. I was hoping to see what the difference in flavor would be with this yeast vs the 1318 I used last time. Bummer.

That's sad, man. Chuck those hops. Where did you buy them? There are definitely still mysteries with this style.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Juice Bomb

That looks like a huge PITA to divvy up your hops into such minute quantities for such small differences in time. I've never seen anybody do a 40 minute, 30 minute, and 20 minute addition all in one beer (plus other additions). Not that it's a bad thing, but I think you're overcomplicating it and making a bunch of extra work for yourself and won't see a difference over more conventional hopping schedules (fewer steps).
Also, unless you want it bitter like a West Coast, this style really doesn't need anything boiled longer than 15 minutes. You'll pick up plenty bitterness from flameout and whirlpool/hopstand additions, despite what brewing calculators say.
Just my 2 cents.

The other confounding variable is that my latest batch using the 90 minute hop stand also used WLP002 as the yeast. I liked it a ton at first, but it hasn't aged super well. It is still good, but it has cleared up pretty quickly and lost some hop character before I thought it would. I am starting to wonder if the yeast hanging around in suspension is helping these beers maybe? My favorite yeasts so far are WLP095, GigaYeast Conan and WY1318.

The WLP095 is just a super solid yeast, very repeatable, long-lasting hop flavor, perfect. The GigaYeast Conan was of a similar character to the WLP095 and super cloudy for a long time. WY1318 has a sort of unique, strange flavor profile that seems to get better and better as the keg ages, weirdly. It makes for a super hazy beer for a long time and long-lasting hop character. I'd love to see a comparison of all three in the same wort with no kettle hops and a huge dry hop. I suppose one day I'll have to try that.

Oh, the other thing I am wondering about is the usage of kettle fining. I have a feeling that maybe omitting kettle finings might beneficial to the style. I'd have to do a side by side to compare though of course. It seems like it certainly leads to a hazier beer if you omit them!

Love this style, one of the best!

So I just posited the theory on the oxidation thread that yeast strains that remain in suspension longer may be providing anti-oxidative protection to the hops by scavenging the oxygen that would ordinarily be bonding with the hops and oxidizing (granted at a low rate because they're not all that active at this stage). Maybe I'm way off base, but it's a theory.

Also, I don't use kettle finings in NEIPA - it seems counter-productive in a style that is supposed to be hazy. You wouldn't (I assume) kettle-fine a Hefeweizen, would you?

Lastly, I am having an interesting experience with the remains of my last NEIPA:
So it was delicious (Galaxy, Azacca, Citra), but as is par for the course, it only lasted at peak flavor for a couple of weeks. Then it was just okay, but lacked that fresh hops flavor and aroma. So when the keg got down to the halfway point, I transferred it to a 2.5 gal keg with two more ounces of fresh dry hops in the new keg (galaxy). Boom. Immediately fresh again, but despite a fine mesh bag holding the hops, I began getting sediment and the beer picked up a fresh ground black pepper quality (I think from the sediment). It was weird, like an actual peppery spiciness that actually burned the throat a little. I still drank it, and noticed if I discarded the first few ounces before pouring my pint, it was better (got rid of the sediment).
Now a month later, the freshness seems to be back, or at least not obscured by pepperiness. When I pour it now, you can smell the tropical fruit citrus aroma from several feet away.
This beer was initially kegged on 2/9 and re-kegged (downsized and re-hopped) on 3/15. So over a month later, it's better than it's been since it was Fresh 2.5 months ago!

Anyway, those are my musings for the day.

 

[Braufessor]

Juice Bomb

I have to agree with Cavpilot on this one - that seems like an insane amount of detail in your hop schedule. I cannot imagine that level of detail is going to amount in any perceivable difference what-so-ever. I would get your IBU's in one addition, of one hop early on...... save those good hops for later. Use Warrior or something like that. Then I would lump those other flameout/whirlpool additions together probably. I can't see how different additions, 10 minutes apart are going to matter that much. Just seems like way more work than needed.
Otherwise - I think it looks like a good recipe - just rather tedious.

 

[Braufessor]

The other confounding variable is that my latest batch using the 90 minute hop stand also used WLP002 as the yeast. I liked it a ton at first, but it hasn't aged super well. It is still good, but it has cleared up pretty quickly and lost some hop character before I thought it would. I am starting to wonder if the yeast hanging around in suspension is helping these beers maybe? My favorite yeasts so far are WLP095, GigaYeast Conan and WY1318.

The WLP095 is just a super solid yeast, very repeatable, long-lasting hop flavor, perfect. The GigaYeast Conan was of a similar character to the WLP095 and super cloudy for a long time. WY1318 has a sort of unique, strange flavor profile that seems to get better and better as the keg ages, weirdly. It makes for a super hazy beer for a long time and long-lasting hop character. I'd love to see a comparison of all three in the same wort with no kettle hops and a huge dry hop. I suppose one day I'll have to try that.

Oh, the other thing I am wondering about is the usage of kettle fining. I have a feeling that maybe omitting kettle finings might beneficial to the style. I'd have to do a side by side to compare though of course. It seems like it certainly leads to a hazier beer if you omit them!

Love this style, one of the best!

Those observations seem pretty reasonable to me. I could see some of the same I think. I think the idea that the yeast might bring something to the table is reasonable. I generally blow through most of mine so fast that it is sort of irrelevant ...... but, when I have had multiple batches done at the same time and I don't go through them as fast - I start to notice some of that too..... especially as the beers drop clear.

I quit kettle fining these beers - just seemed pointless. Not sure if it impacts the beer..... just didn't see the justification for doing it when I am purposely adding protein type grains and it is ending cloudy anyway.

The yeast thing was something I had been thinking about too...... was thinking of doing 1318, Conan and 1272 in 3 batches at the same time.

 

[aviator24]

Anyway to extend the life of the hop flavor? Brewed up a my first attempt at this awesome style last Saturday. Huge fan since I stumbled on it at a local brewery that produces the M-43 variety.
I have a 10 gallon batch fermenting away nicely but would like it to last as long as possible flavor wise once kegged. I am getting ready to make my first dry hop addition in a day or two. I also plan on doing the dry hopping in the keg as Baufessor has done previously in this thread.
I know I should have staggered the batches but could/should I delay the dry hopping in one of the 5 gallon glass carboys I have going? Or I could try to drink the entire double batch before the flavors start to dissipate if I have to...just a thought.

 

[berndawg84]

That looks like a huge PITA to divvy up your hops into such minute quantities for such small differences in time. I've never seen anybody do a 40 minute, 30 minute, and 20 minute addition all in one beer (plus other additions). Not that it's a bad thing, but I think you're overcomplicating it and making a bunch of extra work for yourself and won't see a difference over more conventional hopping schedules (fewer steps).
Also, unless you want it bitter like a West Coast, this style really doesn't need anything boiled longer than 15 minutes. You'll pick up plenty bitterness from flameout and whirlpool/hopstand additions, despite what brewing calculators say.
Just my 2 cents.



QUOTE]

Yea that makes sense. I was using this recipe as a basis. This is an NE IPA you can really only get in Colorado, but it's amazing. Definitely on par with the likes of Trillium. Here's the recipe for it:

https://beerandbrewing.com/weldwerks-brewing-co-juicy-bits-new-england-style-ipa/

They do lots of small additions in the whirlpool, maybe that's excessive. I'm doing only 3gal, not 5, so I basically just cut the hop amounts in half.

So are you suggesting to not do a 60 minute boil? I was going to do a FWH and then not hop again until flameout.

 

[berndawg84]

I have to agree with Cavpilot on this one - that seems like an insane amount of detail in your hop schedule. I cannot imagine that level of detail is going to amount in any perceivable difference what-so-ever. I would get your IBU's in one addition, of one hop early on...... save those good hops for later. Use Warrior or something like that. Then I would lump those other flameout/whirlpool additions together probably. I can't see how different additions, 10 minutes apart are going to matter that much. Just seems like way more work than needed.
Otherwise - I think it looks like a good recipe - just rather tedious.

Gotcha, cool. So would you suggest then, at flameout just adding all of those hops, including the flameout and whirlpool hops? The flameout hops totaled about 0.3oz, The whirlpool hops totaled about 1.8oz, or 2.1 oz total. So should I just add the full 2.1oz at flameout and then just whirlpool for maybe 20-30 minutes or so? Thanks in advance.

 

[Braufessor]

Gotcha, cool. So would you suggest then, at flameout just adding all of those hops, including the flameout and whirlpool hops? The flameout hops totaled about 0.3oz, The whirlpool hops totaled about 1.8oz, or 2.1 oz total. So should I just add the full 2.1oz at flameout and then just whirlpool for maybe 20-30 minutes or so? Thanks in advance.

I like to start chilling a bit and get the wort down a bit.... even 180 or below probably (maybe just a minute or two)..... and then throw them in and shut off chiller. 30 minutes or so is what I do. But, yeah - I think you could combine some of those additions a bit for simplicity.

 

[jekeane]

@Braufessor Brewed as is on the revised post here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=7701386&postcount=1418 I added a bit extra on the dry hop charges (20% or so) because I pre packaged hops planning on a second small batch that didn't come to fruition because of a clogged pump.

Won a local ipa competition with it, both peoples and judges categories. Thanks, for the recipe. Still not sure about peoples love for the style but this is a great recipe for it!

So hazy the camera blurs:

 

[Braufessor]

@Braufessor Brewed as is on the revised post here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=7701386&postcount=1418 I added a bit extra on the dry hop charges (20% or so) because I pre packaged hops planning on a second small batch that didn't come to fruition because of a clogged pump.

Won a local ipa competition with it, both peoples and judges categories. Thanks, for the recipe. Still not sure about peoples love for the style but this is a great recipe for it!

So hazy the camera blurs:

Wow.... that looks great. Looking forward to getting home after work now! Congrats on the comp...... cool to hear that it did well.

 

[berndawg84]

I like to start chilling a bit and get the wort down a bit.... even 180 or below probably (maybe just a minute or two)..... and then throw them in and shut off chiller. 30 minutes or so is what I do. But, yeah - I think you could combine some of those additions a bit for simplicity.

Cool thanks, I will plan on that.

 

[cyclonebeer]

Hey Braufessor,
Have you ever played around with hop stand temps? I seem to remember a brulosophy triangle test where they looked at different different hop stand temp impacts and seemed to prefer about 120 degrees. I brewed a 10 gal batch of your IPA on Sunday. Almost didn't happen. I was out of Galaxy, but a friend of mine who brews waay too much had a pound that he sold me. This guys freezer is like a LHBS. Anyway, I set my hop stand temp at 120 in hopes to get a bit more "juicy" bump from that addition. Any thoughts?

 

[lilbova3]

I have always heard that it is not always advisable to harvest yeast from big beers or super hoppy beers. Is anyone harvesting 1318 from a NEIPA? I wont have a bunch of hop trub in the yeast cake anyway. I always just scoop up some yeast cake in a sanitized jar and don't go the washing route. If this is not a good process on this beer, I'll just start with a fresh pouch next brew day.

I always harvest mine from these beers. My beers aren't 'big' but very hoppy.

 

[Braufessor]

Hey Braufessor,
Have you ever played around with hop stand temps? I seem to remember a brulosophy triangle test where they looked at different different hop stand temp impacts and seemed to prefer about 120 degrees. I brewed a 10 gal batch of your IPA on Sunday. Almost didn't happen. I was out of Galaxy, but a friend of mine who brews waay too much had a pound that he sold me. This guys freezer is like a LHBS. Anyway, I set my hop stand temp at 120 in hopes to get a bit more "juicy" bump from that addition. Any thoughts?

Ha.... sounds familiar

Never been overly precise on the temps of hop stand.... I just get it cooled down below 170 or so. Can't say that I ever took it all the way down to 120. But, I am sure some times I am down in the 140 range.

Might have to figure out a way to sample yours and see how it is

 

[stickyfinger]

That looks like a huge PITA to divvy up your hops into such minute quantities for such small differences in time. I've never seen anybody do a 40 minute, 30 minute, and 20 minute addition all in one beer (plus other additions). Not that it's a bad thing, but I think you're overcomplicating it and making a bunch of extra work for yourself and won't see a difference over more conventional hopping schedules (fewer steps).

Also, unless you want it bitter like a West Coast, this style really doesn't need anything boiled longer than 15 minutes. You'll pick up plenty bitterness from flameout and whirlpool/hopstand additions, despite what brewing calculators say.

Just my 2 cents.







So I just posited the theory on the oxidation thread that yeast strains that remain in suspension longer may be providing anti-oxidative protection to the hops by scavenging the oxygen that would ordinarily be bonding with the hops and oxidizing (granted at a low rate because they're not all that active at this stage). Maybe I'm way off base, but it's a theory.



Also, I don't use kettle finings in NEIPA - it seems counter-productive in a style that is supposed to be hazy. You wouldn't (I assume) kettle-fine a Hefeweizen, would you?



Lastly, I am having an interesting experience with the remains of my last NEIPA:

So it was delicious (Galaxy, Azacca, Citra), but as is par for the course, it only lasted at peak flavor for a couple of weeks. Then it was just okay, but lacked that fresh hops flavor and aroma. So when the keg got down to the halfway point, I transferred it to a 2.5 gal keg with two more ounces of fresh dry hops in the new keg (galaxy). Boom. Immediately fresh again, but despite a fine mesh bag holding the hops, I began getting sediment and the beer picked up a fresh ground black pepper quality (I think from the sediment). It was weird, like an actual peppery spiciness that actually burned the throat a little. I still drank it, and noticed if I discarded the first few ounces before pouring my pint, it was better (got rid of the sediment).

Now a month later, the freshness seems to be back, or at least not obscured by pepperiness. When I pour it now, you can smell the tropical fruit citrus aroma from several feet away.

This beer was initially kegged on 2/9 and re-kegged (downsized and re-hopped) on 3/15. So over a month later, it's better than it's been since it was Fresh 2.5 months ago!



Anyway, those are my musings for the day.

i have been wondering about the yeast as a chemical reductant in finished beer as well. seems like a very good hypothesis to me

i also have added dry hops to the keg to revive an old beer. I've discovered that for some hop varieties or lots of hops, it can give a hop character that i din't enjoy as much as primary fermentation dry hops. the one time it seemed to work well was in a barleywine that had lost its hoppiness. didn't like it when i added apollo or ctz to a flagging ipa

 

[stickyfinger]

The yeast thing was something I had been thinking about too...... was thinking of doing 1318, Conan and 1272 in 3 batches at the same time.

love to see more yeast experiments!

 

[berndawg84]

Ha.... sounds familiar

Never been overly precise on the temps of hop stand.... I just get it cooled down below 170 or so. Can't say that I ever took it all the way down to 120. But, I am sure some times I am down in the 140 range.

Might have to figure out a way to sample yours and see how it is

So as a follow up to this...I redid the hop schedule in Brewer's Friend and simplified to one flameout addition and one whirlpool addition. Their site suggests that for a typical whirlpool hopping you get 10% utilization. I put in a 30 minute whirlpool at 175 degrees F, which added about 90 IBUs to the beer, for a total of 119 IBUs. Does this seem right? Seems like a lot. I thought I could start with a low FWH of 33 IBUs, but would get up into the 50's with the whirlpool hops, not 119 IBUs...

3 gallon batch
Original Gravity:

1.066
Final Gravity:

1.016
ABV (standard):

6.54%

IBU (tinseth):

119.15

SRM (morey):

4.65

Fermentables

Amount Fermentable PPG °L Bill %
6.3 lb American - Pale 2-Row 37 1.8 74.4%
0.8 lb Flaked Wheat 34 2 9.5%
0.8 lb Flaked Oats 33 2.2 9.5%
9 oz American - Carapils (Dextrine Malt) 33 1.8 6.6%
8.46 lb Total


Hops

Amount Variety Type AA Use Time IBU
0.2 oz Citra Pellet 11 First Wort 9.33
0.2 oz Mosaic Pellet 12.5 First Wort 10.6
0.2 oz Vic Secret Pellet 15 First Wort 12.72
0.1 oz Citra Pellet 11 Boil 0 min
0.1 oz Mosaic Pellet 12.5 Boil 0 min
0.1 oz Vic Secret Pellet 15 Boil 0 min
0.9 oz Citra Pellet 11 Whirlpool at 175°F 30 min 24.72
0.9 oz Mosaic Pellet 12.5 Whirlpool at 175°F 30 min 28.09
0.9 oz Vic Secret Pellet 15 Whirlpool at 175°F 30 min 33.71
0.5 oz Citra Pellet 11 Dry Hop 4 days
0.5 oz Mosaic Pellet 12.5 Dry Hop 4 days
0.5 oz Vic Secret Pellet 15 Dry Hop 4 days
0.33 oz Citra Pellet 11 Dry Hop 8 days
0.65 oz Mosaic Pellet 12.5 Dry Hop 8 days
0.33 oz Vic Secret Pellet 15 Dry Hop 8 days

 

[Braufessor]

So as a follow up to this...I redid the hop schedule in Brewer's Friend and simplified to one flameout addition and one whirlpool addition. Their site suggests that for a typical whirlpool hopping you get 10% utilization. I put in a 30 minute whirlpool at 175 degrees F, which added about 90 IBUs to the beer, for a total of 119 IBUs. Does this seem right? Seems like a lot. I thought I could start with a low FWH of 33 IBUs, but would get up into the 50's with the whirlpool hops, not 119 IBUs...

If you are only adding 30 IBU's for bitter addition, and everything else is flameout or after - you won't have anywhere close to 119 IBU's - no matter what the software says. And, it won't be perceived as bitter either.

There was a really good interview on..... Experimental Brewing Podcast I think ...... where they did some actually testing on IBU's and compared to projected.... the actual IBU's are all over the place. As far as an accurate unit of measure - the IBU is basically worthless. Its only real value is it allows you to have a consistency from batch to batch. In essence - even though the accuracy of the measurement is wrong...... if you always use the same inaccurate unit of measure, it ends up being useful in constructing recipe's.

Brew this one the way you are planning (it won't be 100 IBU's). Then, evaluate your beer and determine where it falls as far as your preferences. Then adjust from there on a future batch (more or less hops in boil for instance.).

 

[Braufessor]

Not usually a fan of high ABV..... but this is really great. 9.3%.

 

[berndawg84]

If you are only adding 30 IBU's for bitter addition, and everything else is flameout or after - you won't have anywhere close to 119 IBU's - no matter what the software says. And, it won't be perceived as bitter either.

There was a really good interview on..... Experimental Brewing Podcast I think ...... where they did some actually testing on IBU's and compared to projected.... the actual IBU's are all over the place. As far as an accurate unit of measure - the IBU is basically worthless. Its only real value is it allows you to have a consistency from batch to batch. In essence - even though the accuracy of the measurement is wrong...... if you always use the same inaccurate unit of measure, it ends up being useful in constructing recipe's.

Brew this one the way you are planning (it won't be 100 IBU's). Then, evaluate your beer and determine where it falls as far as your preferences. Then adjust from there on a future batch (more or less hops in boil for instance.).

Fair enough. I may increase my bittering addition to get more like 50 IBUs, 30 is a bit low. Interestingly, the WeldWerks recipe I posted does about 0.6 oz of Citra, Mosaic and El Dorado as a FWH, and then flameout and whirlpool hops, and they calculate their IBU as 55. But I know that IBU measurement is tricky stuff. Thanks for the input. On an unrelated note, I am bottling this beer (no keg setup yet)...according to this thread bottled NEIPAs often turn to brown sludge after a couple weeks. Going to brew it this weekend anyway, we'll see what happens I guess!

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=597557&page=12

 

[Shenanigans]

Fair enough. I may increase my bittering addition to get more like 50 IBUs, 30 is a bit low. Interestingly, the WeldWerks recipe I posted does about 0.6 oz of Citra, Mosaic and El Dorado as a FWH, and then flameout and whirlpool hops, and they calculate their IBU as 55. But I know that IBU measurement is tricky stuff. Thanks for the input. On an unrelated note, I am bottling this beer (no keg setup yet)...according to this thread bottled NEIPAs often turn to brown sludge after a couple weeks. Going to brew it this weekend anyway, we'll see what happens I guess!

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=597557&page=12

Cool let us know what happens on the bottling front.
Want to brew one of these myself but will probably reduce it to 3 gallons to make sure I drink up before it goes down hill in the bottle.
Still no conclusive evidence but I will be using 1318 which possibly stays fresher in the bottle than using Conan.

 

[Jmash]

Not usually a fan of high ABV..... but this is really great. 9.3%.

My son drank my last Heavy Mettle last weekend. I may move his stuff out to the sidewalk. I wish they made it more often. It's my favorite from Trillium

 

[Braufessor]

I am bottling this beer (no keg setup yet)...according to this thread bottled NEIPAs often turn to brown sludge after a couple weeks. Going to brew it this weekend anyway, we'll see what happens I guess!

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=597557&page=12

Oh.... I don't know about that. I have had some good bottle versions of this. I agree 100% that you want to bring your "A" game with your bottling process to avoid oxygen as much as possible.... but, I think it can be done. I know it can be done. I have enjoyed several that folks have sent me that were bottled.

Here is the link to the podcast I mentioned... It was a good interview.
https://www.experimentalbrew.com/podcast/episode-32-ibu-lie

 

[olotti]

So as a follow up to this...I redid the hop schedule in Brewer's Friend and simplified to one flameout addition and one whirlpool addition. Their site suggests that for a typical whirlpool hopping you get 10% utilization. I put in a 30 minute whirlpool at 175 degrees F, which added about 90 IBUs to the beer, for a total of 119 IBUs. Does this seem right? Seems like a lot. I thought I could start with a low FWH of 33 IBUs, but would get up into the 50's with the whirlpool hops, not 119 IBUs...

3 gallon batch
Original Gravity:

1.066
Final Gravity:

1.016
ABV (standard):

6.54%

IBU (tinseth):

119.15

SRM (morey):

4.65

Fermentables

Amount Fermentable PPG °L Bill %
6.3 lb American - Pale 2-Row 37 1.8 74.4%
0.8 lb Flaked Wheat 34 2 9.5%
0.8 lb Flaked Oats 33 2.2 9.5%
9 oz American - Carapils (Dextrine Malt) 33 1.8 6.6%
8.46 lb Total


Hops

Amount Variety Type AA Use Time IBU
0.2 oz Citra Pellet 11 First Wort 9.33
0.2 oz Mosaic Pellet 12.5 First Wort 10.6
0.2 oz Vic Secret Pellet 15 First Wort 12.72
0.1 oz Citra Pellet 11 Boil 0 min
0.1 oz Mosaic Pellet 12.5 Boil 0 min
0.1 oz Vic Secret Pellet 15 Boil 0 min
0.9 oz Citra Pellet 11 Whirlpool at 175°F 30 min 24.72
0.9 oz Mosaic Pellet 12.5 Whirlpool at 175°F 30 min 28.09
0.9 oz Vic Secret Pellet 15 Whirlpool at 175°F 30 min 33.71
0.5 oz Citra Pellet 11 Dry Hop 4 days
0.5 oz Mosaic Pellet 12.5 Dry Hop 4 days
0.5 oz Vic Secret Pellet 15 Dry Hop 4 days
0.33 oz Citra Pellet 11 Dry Hop 8 days
0.65 oz Mosaic Pellet 12.5 Dry Hop 8 days
0.33 oz Vic Secret Pellet 15 Dry Hop 8 days

Your whirlpool at 175 will not yield 90 ibus. As I understand from readings here and other places that alpha isomerization to the point of adding ibus cuts off at around 180-185 deg so your only really extracting aroma and the flavor oils at that point as the temp is not hot enough for the oils to turn into buttering agents. I do the same technique as you mention, I boil for an hour then cut flame, let wort cool to 175 then add my hopstand and I'll let that go for 30-60 min depending on time. My beers are mostly made this way and I do this for even lower abv pale ales and IPAs and there's no bitterness, supreme hoppiness yes to the point of just saturation but it leaves the palate quickly and not like a bitter tongue puckering hop bomb which is what I associate being a bitter beer.

 

[olotti]

Oh.... I don't know about that. I have had some good bottle versions of this. I agree 100% that you want to bring your "A" game with your bottling process to avoid oxygen as much as possible.... but, I think it can be done. I know it can be done. I have enjoyed several that folks have sent me that were bottled.

Here is the link to the podcast I mentioned... It was a good interview.
https://www.experimentalbrew.com/podcast/episode-32-ibu-lie

I hope mine have been some of them. Lol

 

[Hannabrew]

Unfortunately, my beer seems to have lost it's way.

It was great out of the fermenter...super juicy and flavorful. I closed transferred to a CO2 purged keg, added my dry hops with CO2 on and purged 6 times at 30PSI after closing the lid. I kept it at room temp for 5 days and then moved it to the kegerator at 36F to cool and get ready to serve.

The first couple of pints were excellent last Tuesday. Since then it's been a quick decline. It doesn't have much aroma anymore, it's not really juice but rather just cloudy, and it tastes rather thin. I shook the keg a bit and got some aroma back temporarily but I'm perplexed...what could have gone wrong?

My only conclusion is that this Imperial Juice yeast floculates too much and the yeast took all the hop aroma/flavor with them to the bottom of the keg. The fact that I get more aroma when I swirl the keg seems to support that theory.

Any other ideas?

 

[olotti]

Unfortunately, my beer seems to have lost it's way.

It was great out of the fermenter...super juicy and flavorful. I closed transferred to a CO2 purged keg, added my dry hops with CO2 on and purged 6 times at 30PSI after closing the lid. I kept it at room temp for 5 days and then moved it to the kegerator at 36F to cool and get ready to serve.

The first couple of pints were excellent last Tuesday. Since then it's been a quick decline. It doesn't have much aroma anymore, it's not really juice but rather just cloudy, and it tastes rather thin. I shook the keg a bit and got some aroma back temporarily but I'm perplexed...what could have gone wrong?

My only conclusion is that this Imperial Juice yeast floculates too much and the yeast took all the hop aroma/flavor with them to the bottom of the keg. The fact that I get more aroma when I swirl the keg seems to support that theory.

Any other ideas?

I don't keg but seems your process is in line with what other people do here so there's no leak in the line anywhere otherwise yeah maybe that imperial yeast just drops when cooled and like you say when u agitate it then it's good but it drops out again but yeast is not what we're after in a neipa it's the hops and if you hop it heavily I would think that would stay in suspension. Or maybe you didn't use enough oats, barley or wheat or a big enough dry hop to where you could compensate for that hop loss when the keg is chilled. There's an answer in there somewhere now it's figuring out where and it maybe in the grain bill itself maybe.

 

[Braufessor]

I hope mine have been some of them. Lol

Absolutely

 

[marjen]

So I am thinking about making my changes to my hop schedule. Currently this is what I have been doing for a 5 gallon batch.

@60 mins .25 oz
@10 mins .75 oz
@flameout 2oz
@180 deg whirlpool for 30 mins 3 oz of hops
@pitch 2 oz hops
@day 3 post pitch 8 oz hops

Now I will say the last 2 beers using this method have been outstanding. But I am wondering if I could get the same results either combining the flameout/whirlpool together or completely removing those and just doing it all post pitch? Any thoughts on this? Not that its a big deal but wondering if 6 different hop additions are really all providing something that different.

 

[anteater8]

Heading to the LHBS today to pick up grain for my 8th and 9th batches of this beer. One will be 100% Azacca, the other 100% Galaxy. Will post notes once they're done, along with my favorite hop combo rankings.

 

[crusader1612]

Heading to the LHBS today to pick up grain for my 8th and 9th batches of this beer. One will be 100% Azacca, the other 100% Galaxy. Will post notes once they're done, along with my favorite hop combo rankings.

you could blend as well.

 

[anteater8]

you could blend as well.

Yeah trust me, I'm tempted. I've got heaps of Citra, Galaxy, Equinox, Simcoe, Amarillo, Azacca, Motueka, Columbus and El Dorado chilling in the freezer. There are dozens of combos I want to try. But I feel like I've been learning a lot about the hop from using a single hop in this beer and want to keep it up for a few more iterations so I can (hopefully) detect individual hop contributions to blends better in the future.

 

[golfgod04]

Yeah trust me, I'm tempted. I've got heaps of Citra, Galaxy, Equinox, Simcoe, Amarillo, Azacca, Motueka, Columbus and El Dorado chilling in the freezer. There are dozens of combos I want to try. But I feel like I've been learning a lot about the hop from using a single hop in this beer and want to keep it up for a few more iterations so I can (hopefully) detect individual hop contributions to blends better in the future.

im jealous, thats a great selection of hops! you could brew every weekend for awhile with all those combos!

 

[crusader1612]

Yeah trust me, I'm tempted. I've got heaps of Citra, Galaxy, Equinox, Simcoe, Amarillo, Azacca, Motueka, Columbus and El Dorado chilling in the freezer. There are dozens of combos I want to try. But I feel like I've been learning a lot about the hop from using a single hop in this beer and want to keep it up for a few more iterations so I can (hopefully) detect individual hop contributions to blends better in the future.

Understandabel - and with such a plethora of hops sitting around i dont blame you.

but what i mean is, brew your beers as normal, and at kegging, rack a gallon or so of each beer into a bucket, and bottle or kegg, that 2 gallons. then you've got three beers.
you can taste your single hops each, then see how each hops plays together. (even half a gallon of each or less)

 

[isomerization]

Understandabel - and with such a plethora of hops sitting around i dont blame you.

but what i mean is, brew your beers as normal, and at kegging, rack a gallon or so of each beer into a bucket, and bottle or kegg, that 2 gallons. then you've got three beers.
you can taste your single hops each, then see how each hops plays together. (even half a gallon of each or less)

You could probably even blend in the glass out of the kegerator too, would be cool to test different ratios.

 

[RevKev]

You could probably even blend in the glass out of the kegerator too, would be cool to test different ratios.

Get the graduated cylinders and tasting glasses out!!!

 

[MaCheFai]

Hey guys, for those of you who've tried this recipe, does this yield a beer that's more orange juicy like Julius, or more lemon/grapefruity? I was hoping to find a recipe that has more of the sweet side of citrus rather than tart.

The color and reviews have all been great, so I'm eager to try, just curious to get a better understanding of the flavor profile first.

After having read thru all of these pages, don't recall seeing a review or summary of results from the recipe from any other brewers?