I use dextrose every time I brew a NE style IPA you just have to mash a little higher to offset it. I still get a pretty nice mouthfeel using it and going high cl to sulfate. Trillium uses dextrose in almost all their beers and they have a real nice mouthfeel, yeast choice also plays a part too. I find I have to use dextrose especially when using 1318 otherwise it's hard to get the fg in the 1.012 range without it. Oh I only use a 1/2lb so just enough to help the beer dry out and finish a little lower but not thin it out. But that beer looks great, just like Julius from treehouse.
New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA
- Thread starter Braufessor
- Start date
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I use dextrose every time I brew a NE style IPA you just have to mash a little higher to offset it. I still get a pretty nice mouthfeel using it and going high cl to sulfate. Trillium uses dextrose in almost all their beers and they have a real nice mouthfeel, yeast choice also plays a part too. I find I have to use dextrose especially when using 1318 otherwise it's hard to get the fg in the 1.012 range without it. Oh I only use a 1/2lb so just enough to help the beer dry out and finish a little lower but not thin it out. But that beer looks great, just like Julius from treehouse.
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
Looks like the Trillium website indicates that they do use dextrose in some of their beers. The lower ABV ones do not though. I don't see the point of dextrose personally. If I want something dryer, I just boost the sulfate, unless you are getting over 7.5ish%, then dextrose could be useful.
You have a good point that the yeast is huge in determining the perception of dryness as well. A 1318 or Conan beer will taste a lot smoother and fuller, less dry or crisp than say a Chico-like strain.
I've come to the point that I don't really concern myself with final gravities anymore unless I am having a problem with the flavor in the beer. If I mash really high, I end up with high FG, but it doesn't result in a sweeter beer, just a lower alcohol beer, IMHO.
Anyway, once you understand the tools available, you can tweak them each individually or all at once to make changes to a recipe obviously.
Very good points. I should say when I make these style beers their always over 7% abv so I've realized using a 1/2lb dextrose helps get me to this abv otherwise it's finish in the 6-ish %. However I've been mashing at 149 and notice while the mouthfeel is nice it thins out on the back so the last two beers I made one just bottled and one fermenting away I mashed at 152 just to see if that provide a little fuller mouthfeel and body. The recently bottle one finished at 1.012 and the next one is a few days away from the fg sampling. I exclusively use Conan or 1318 in these beers just depends on what profile I want, cleaner I use Conan, a little more fruity yeast twang I use 1318, and both yeast I save from starters are prob on their 3rd or 4th gen at this point. I really like trillium so I've used the dextrose but treehouse may not use any and their known for their mouthfeel, I think next beer I'll just mash at 152 and not use dextrose and see what happens.
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
I also have noticed that I get a more fruity, peachy character from 1318 and a pretty clean profile from Conan. I like both but maybe like Conan a bit more.
I just tried Treehouse for the first time this weekend. I tried Green and Alter Ego. Both were quite good, fresh, lots of Galaxy I think. Both had a really nice mouthfeel for sure. Alter Ego seemed to have more of a rich malt character and more complex hop character. I think I liked Alter Ego a bit more. I am starting to think that the flaked grains in large amounts is a pretty key pillar of the style, especially if you want to drop the ABV down lower and lower and not have a thin beer. flaked oats and flaked wheat are really great for making a beer taste fuller than it should be for the ABV.
tempestam83
Well-Known Member
Boom!
beardandbutter
Member
I actually based the grist of this beer off of the homebrewtalk Trillium Melcher Street Clone. As I used a different hop schedule I figured this thread would be more appropriate. Thanks for the info!
Nice points or also a lower attenuating yeast to keep that fg up. Use more flaked grains and mash a little higher and I can see where you'd get a 6% beer with the mouthfeel of an oatmeal stout. I'm pretty sure treehouse while this is just my opinion uses a Conan strain, the beers I've had from them don't have the yeasty twang fruitiness I get from trillium which I would bet uses 1318, I've used that yeast on a few recent IPAs and it's the one similarity my beer has to trillium and once you taste it you get it.
brew703
Well-Known Member
I'll be brewing batch#2 in the coming weeks. I changed up the hops to try something different and without citra.
Want the IBU's around 45. Should I increase the WP amts and reduce the bittering or leave as is? The first batch was really good but I want a bit more bitter to balance it out. My first attempt was around 35 IBU.
This is for a 2.5 gal batch.
Hops
Amount Variety Type AA Use Time IBU
0.35 oz Columbus Pellet 15 First Wort 29.47
0.5 oz Amarillo Pellet 8.6 Boil 0 min
0.6 oz Cascade Pellet 6 Boil 0 min
0.4 oz Simcoe Pellet 12.7 Boil 0 min
0.35 oz Amarillo Pellet 8.6 Whirlpool at 150 °F 30 min 4.51
0.35 oz Cascade Pellet 6 Whirlpool at 150 °F 30 min 3.15
0.35 oz Simcoe Pellet 12.7 Whirlpool at 150 °F 30 min 6.66
0.75oz Amarillo Pellet 8.6 Dry Hop 10 days
1 oz Cascade Pellet 6 Dry Hop 10 days
0.75 oz Amarillo Pellet 8.6 Dry Hop 5 days
1 oz Cascade Pellet 6 Dry Hop 5 days
Want the IBU's around 45. Should I increase the WP amts and reduce the bittering or leave as is? The first batch was really good but I want a bit more bitter to balance it out. My first attempt was around 35 IBU.
This is for a 2.5 gal batch.
Hops
Amount Variety Type AA Use Time IBU
0.35 oz Columbus Pellet 15 First Wort 29.47
0.5 oz Amarillo Pellet 8.6 Boil 0 min
0.6 oz Cascade Pellet 6 Boil 0 min
0.4 oz Simcoe Pellet 12.7 Boil 0 min
0.35 oz Amarillo Pellet 8.6 Whirlpool at 150 °F 30 min 4.51
0.35 oz Cascade Pellet 6 Whirlpool at 150 °F 30 min 3.15
0.35 oz Simcoe Pellet 12.7 Whirlpool at 150 °F 30 min 6.66
0.75oz Amarillo Pellet 8.6 Dry Hop 10 days
1 oz Cascade Pellet 6 Dry Hop 10 days
0.75 oz Amarillo Pellet 8.6 Dry Hop 5 days
1 oz Cascade Pellet 6 Dry Hop 5 days
EndOfLine
Well-Known Member
So I just read this entire amazing thread and every post within 2 days... Time
To brew this when I get home!
To brew this when I get home!
crusader1612
Well-Known Member
**bump**
I have never used 1469 yeast before. I saw this post the other day (as I am sure many did) and chose to wait for input from someone that had used the yeast before.
At this juncture I would say go for it and use it.
If it comes out well (and I cannot imagine this beer coming out badly) then report back with an update and we can all add that yeast to the list as a possible variety.
That is all I can say.
At this juncture I would say go for it and use it.
If it comes out well (and I cannot imagine this beer coming out badly) then report back with an update and we can all add that yeast to the list as a possible variety.
That is all I can say.
Here's Mine.
Original base recipe with 1/1/1 Citra/Galaxy/Amarillo for all 4 additions.
OG 1.060, FG 1.014, ABV 6.0%
1318 from 1-liter starter. 68* for 4 days, then up to 70* to finish.
Started with 100% RO and built up to reach nearly the exact profile from Brau's original recipe. Added 5.5oz of Acidulated Malt to mash to bring ph down to 5.4, because LHBS didn't have lactic.
It's definitely the best beer I've ever made. Great aroma - mango, pineapple, little bit of dank. Sharp finish, almost a little too sharp, and mouthfeel could use some work. I think next batch I will raise mash temp a degree or two and maybe increase flaked grains a little bit.
Thanks Braufessor for the original recipe and your continued attention to this thread!
Original base recipe with 1/1/1 Citra/Galaxy/Amarillo for all 4 additions.
OG 1.060, FG 1.014, ABV 6.0%
1318 from 1-liter starter. 68* for 4 days, then up to 70* to finish.
Started with 100% RO and built up to reach nearly the exact profile from Brau's original recipe. Added 5.5oz of Acidulated Malt to mash to bring ph down to 5.4, because LHBS didn't have lactic.
It's definitely the best beer I've ever made. Great aroma - mango, pineapple, little bit of dank. Sharp finish, almost a little too sharp, and mouthfeel could use some work. I think next batch I will raise mash temp a degree or two and maybe increase flaked grains a little bit.
Thanks Braufessor for the original recipe and your continued attention to this thread!
Peruvian802
Well-Known Member
I've brewed my recipe many times but used 1318 for the first time on this version instead of Conan. I'm glad I built a large starter and kept some for next time!
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1467238038.700260.jpg
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1467238038.700260.jpg
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
Peruvian802
Well-Known Member
1318 provides the soft mouthfeel and turbidity that most associate with NE ipas and allows the hops to dominate.
Conan throws the peachy esters that heady topper and early versions of HF Edward were known for.
I realize that I'm not really adding much, but I can confirm the rumors. [emoji6]
crusader1612
Well-Known Member
thanks for responding
I absolutely love WY1469 and I really need to get onto brewing some beers with this. It's killer in a Brown Ale.
so I might just pull the trigger and see what happens, why the hell not right?
I will report back when I do I might mash slightly lower, given the lower attenuation though. (chances are I'll go with Hop Hands first up, to grow up a good pitch for future brews)
What were the amounts of salts that you added to build up the ro water?
brewski09
Well-Known Member
Maybe it's just me but I think your brewing program is a little off. I count 44ish IBU from the FWH and the whirlpool hops but the program isn't adding any from the 0 minute additions. Those can't supply 0 IBU if whirlpool hops are adding some too. Try plugging those in as whirlpool as well and see where you are.
I always get a sharp finish for about a week after I transfer to the serving keg. For me, it starts fading in week 2 and the beer usually continues to improve for a few more weeks before it starts to drop off a little.
brew703
Well-Known Member
The zero additions never add any IBU's. I never could understand why that is and why WP adds IBU's.
Anyway, I entered this recipe into Beersmith and you are right. Something is up with BF as it is not calculating the IBU's correctly. I had to reduce the FWH charge to .20 to get the IBU's down to 22 and adjusted the WP hops slightly to get at 45 IBU's total.
My latest batch that I have posted on here (pic and recipe) is good but I wouldn't mind the IBUs being a little bit lower. I make 3 gallon batches (into the fermenter) at the moment. The most recent beer was OG of 1.054, ABV around 5.2% and estimated IBU of 17. I put .2 oz of Columbus in at 60 and then 3 ounces in at a 180 WP. I was surprised to see how bitter my beer was with this recipe. It is a great beer nonetheless but still a little too bitter I feel. A local head brewer agreed.
Long story short, I believe additions around 180* will still provide bitterness. Maybe 5% utilization, maybe more? With my next beer I'm thinking of no bittering addition and adding everything around flameout and see how that turns out. Or still bitter slightly and add the WP in closer to 150*. This is for my system at least, yours may vary.
This also brings me to another thread on homebrewtalk. There's a recipe on here for Bissell Bro's Swish, a DIPA. I haven't had it but heard great things. One of the Bissell bros actually emailed a guy a scaled recipe. He only added .25 oz for a bittering charge for a 5 gallon batch! .25 oz (!!!!) for a DIPA! Which brings me to one more point then I'll stop blabbing. An 'All About Beer' article about the 'hop shift'. If memory serves me correct I believe one brewer was quoted using 1.1 oz on a 3 barrel system for a bittering charge for this kind of style IPA or APA, it didn't specify which. 1.1 oz for 3 barrels of beer!!!
I think this style benefits greatly from a small bittering charge and light carbonation like Brau has mentioned before. That really helps bring out the mouthfeel and will make it juicy, I feel.
Long story short, I believe additions around 180* will still provide bitterness. Maybe 5% utilization, maybe more? With my next beer I'm thinking of no bittering addition and adding everything around flameout and see how that turns out. Or still bitter slightly and add the WP in closer to 150*. This is for my system at least, yours may vary.
This also brings me to another thread on homebrewtalk. There's a recipe on here for Bissell Bro's Swish, a DIPA. I haven't had it but heard great things. One of the Bissell bros actually emailed a guy a scaled recipe. He only added .25 oz for a bittering charge for a 5 gallon batch! .25 oz (!!!!) for a DIPA! Which brings me to one more point then I'll stop blabbing. An 'All About Beer' article about the 'hop shift'. If memory serves me correct I believe one brewer was quoted using 1.1 oz on a 3 barrel system for a bittering charge for this kind of style IPA or APA, it didn't specify which. 1.1 oz for 3 barrels of beer!!!
I think this style benefits greatly from a small bittering charge and light carbonation like Brau has mentioned before. That really helps bring out the mouthfeel and will make it juicy, I feel.
I brewed this no-sparge eBIAB so I started with 8.7gallons of RO and added:
3g Gypsum
2g Epsom Salt
1g Table Salt (non-iodized)
8g Calcium Chloride
3g Baking Soda
Also added the 5.5oz of acidulated malt to get to 5.4pH.
This was my first time messing with water in this much detail. I used to calculator in Brewer's Friend and just played around with the additions until I got reasonably close to Braufessor's numbers.
According to the calculator, here's how it looked:
Ca+2 87.4
Mg+2 6.0
Na+ 36.9
Cl- 135.6
SO4-2 74.5
HCO 64.849
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
I haven't brewed this beer yet, but I was thinking I would drop down the IBUs as well, from my experience with other beers and what I like. I think there may be a big difference in hop utilization depending on your boil vigor as well.
I also know from experience that a lot of dry hops will increase the bitterness quite a bit. That may be part of what you are experiencing if you haven't dry hopped with this many hops before. (I realize there are no IBUs from dry hopping.)
mbbransc
Well-Known Member
You do get a small IBU bump from dry hopping.
I brew 12gal batches and only use 1/2oz Warrior as my bittering charge. I do a small 15' addition, substantial flameout addition, then huge whirlpool addition. Also, (2) big dry hops. IPAs are plenty bitter.
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
Have you seen any data on IBUs from dry hopping? I thought that the wort had to be hot to literally get IBUs. I always thought dry hopping bitterness was derived from other plant matter.
mbbransc
Well-Known Member
One of the podcasts I listen to, maybe Experimental Brews with Denny and Drew, episode on NEIPAs. They sent some pre and post dry hopped beers off to be testing. The same beer after dry-hopping experienced a slight increase in IBUs (I don't recall how much of an increase).
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
Wow! that's awesome, assuming it wasn't analytical error or variance. I'll look it up, thanks!
There have been some brulosophy experiments where they sent the samples to get IBU testing and they are way off from each other, as well as way off from beersmith. The variance for testing alone is like +/- 2-3 IBU's so if it wasn't marginal it would be hard to prove unless the entire process was flawless in the experiment.
mbbransc
Well-Known Member
^ Or maybe that's where I got it. I'm not sure. I know it was fairly recent though.
I have brewed probably 15-20 batches of NE IPAs and find that if you start the whirl pooling at 170 and keep it above 160 it reduces the bitterness and cleans the after taste up greatly. Also remove your boil additions before adding whirlpool hops if you use hop bags. Awesome style of beer...
To quote myself I guess I made this sound like I was talking about dry hopping but I wasn't. I was talking about whirlpool additions and such to make a point that dry hopping showing an IBU difference might not even be accurate considering there is a 2-3 IBU variance in normal testing.
One of my best batches of NEIPA had no boil hops whatsoever in it. Did it as sort of an experiment, and everyone at my homebrew club meeting loved it. Last two batches have been 0.25oz of Columbus.
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
It would be interesting to continue discussing this topic in another thread, since a lot of people might not be interested in this information. Can we carry it out here:
I'm not sure if I am doing this a bone-headed way, but I think it will work, if you just click on the link to the quote directly above this sentence.
PERFECT!!! I just started messing with water, and I've been totatlly confused on how it works. I too use brewers friend, and biab no sparge so these numbers should fit my bill great!
The water calc is one of those things in BF that just doesn't seem as intuitive as it should be. You have to go to a separate page, it seems to save the calculations separately from the recipe or brew session, etc.
But what I was most surprised about was that it doesn't actually calculate the additions for you based on current and target water profiles. You have to randomly start plugging in numbers, see how it looks, then keep making adjustments until you get close to target. I believe Brun Water works the same way. This might be fine for people with a deep understanding of water chemistry, but when you're just starting out, it's sort of a shot in the dark. I saw something in the forums at BF about a script someone wrote that would actually figure out the addtions for you, but I don't know if they plan to add that to the calculator.
I will say that this was my second batch based on this recipe. For the first, I used the "simple" water solution from the original post. This second batch, with the additions I listed above, was far better. But, I changed a bunch of other stuff as well (most notably the dry hopping process and greater focus on avoiding oxidation), so I can't say for sure how much the improvement was due to the water.
OP
OP
With some of the talk on water, especially for those starting out, it is important to remember that you are basically only trying to accomplish 2 things:
1.) Proper pH of 5.3-5.45 ideally.
2.) Your own personal preference on flavor.
I find all the calculators to be a touch hit and miss ultimately. Therefore the most important thing is to start somewhere, keep track of what you do, and adjust accordingly in the future. Try a few versions with moderate swings and see if any of them stand out to you. If so, go in that direction. If not.... might not be worth worrying too much about one way or another. If I was going to start playing around with a couple versions of water, I would maybe try these 3 versions as a place to start:
Chloride:Sulfate ratio
150:75
75:150
150:150
See if any of them stand out as something you like or don't like, and go from there. It is important to keep the base beer pretty close to the same though if you really want to evaluate the potential preferences you might have.
Ultimately, in my experience, I find less/simple is often better than more and complex.
I just saw this article the other day and it has some good basic water information in there that could be useful for beginners trying to keep track of what they are actually adding to their beer.
http://beerandwinejournal.com/easy-aqua/
1.) Proper pH of 5.3-5.45 ideally.
2.) Your own personal preference on flavor.
I find all the calculators to be a touch hit and miss ultimately. Therefore the most important thing is to start somewhere, keep track of what you do, and adjust accordingly in the future. Try a few versions with moderate swings and see if any of them stand out to you. If so, go in that direction. If not.... might not be worth worrying too much about one way or another. If I was going to start playing around with a couple versions of water, I would maybe try these 3 versions as a place to start:
Chloride:Sulfate ratio
150:75
75:150
150:150
See if any of them stand out as something you like or don't like, and go from there. It is important to keep the base beer pretty close to the same though if you really want to evaluate the potential preferences you might have.
Ultimately, in my experience, I find less/simple is often better than more and complex.
I just saw this article the other day and it has some good basic water information in there that could be useful for beginners trying to keep track of what they are actually adding to their beer.
http://beerandwinejournal.com/easy-aqua/
trav77
Well-Known Member
How do we feel about Equinox hops in this style? Specifically with Citra and/or Mosaic. Going for more fruity/tropical.
OP
OP
Have not used them, so can't say for sure. What I usually do when I want to experiment with a hop in this beer is I go 1:1:1 or 1.5:1:.5(exp. hop) with the kettle hops and first dry hop. Then I taste the beer before my final dry hop. If I am not in love with the new hop, I don't use it in the last dry hop and just go heavier with Citra/Mosaic (or other tried and true hops I like).
