OP
OP
I would maybe go with dry hops on day 5, and then again on day 12, keg/bottle on day 14. It is fine that they are on the hops.
New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA
- Thread starter Braufessor
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I would maybe go with dry hops on day 5, and then again on day 12, keg/bottle on day 14. It is fine that they are on the hops.
Great base recipe Braufessor. I tweaked and put flaked adjuncts up to 31%, carapils 5% and honey malt 2%. I think the honey malt provides a sweetness that is needed in this recipe. I also mashed super high at 156*. Will be using this base recipe and mash temp from now on for most, if not, all APAs and IPAs. [emoji482]
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1466728471.894017.jpg
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1466728471.894017.jpg
OP
OP
Great looking beer. I have been bumping the flaked and wheat up into the 15-18% range.... but never went for 30%! Might have to give it a try some time.
Thanks Brau! The other tries I've done I haven't gotten that mouthfeel I was looking for or slight sweetness that plays with the hops. Others came across kinda harsh on the bitter, a little to much of a bite I'd say and kinda thin, dry on the back end as well. This one did have sweetness, because of using honey malt (thanks for the suggestion in your recipe) for the first time and the higher mash, and I wouldn't mind more mouthfeel believe it or not. Might go as high as 40% next time around.
That's a beauty, right there! Nice!
Thanks phyllobeddo!
Not sure how this got twisted to an argument for record keeping, but OK. I'm all for detailed record keeping.
pH is of course influenced by Ca additions through reduction in RA, though there are other ways to manipulate that. I would reckon that mash/kettle/cast out pH have more of an impact than a few dozen ppm chloride here or there.
The case you pointed out with regards to adding bicarbonate is not really analogous to the chloride discussion, as that is a much stronger lever in terms of pH manipulation, not to mention two different approaches entirely (mash adjustment vs. final beer adjustment).
If you think you can taste the difference between a beer with 300/380ppm Cl- made with 12+ ounces of aggressive American hops, well knock yourself out. The more likely case is that it is power of suggestion.
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
I also find it interesting that by adding, say 100 ppm, of gypsum you can get a very different tasting beer even though there may be more sulfate in the finished beer. Apparently, a small swing shifts the flavor.
OP
OP
The entire thread is about fine tuning a particular beer. In my opinion, there is nothing more useless than a recipe that is too general (pounds of grain instead of percentages, lack of attention to total volumes, Lack of water and pH info, etc.) I am simply reporting all aspects of the beers I am brewing..... I have basically settled in on what I like to do for hops, and yeast, fermentation, mashing etc. I am pretty close to what I like on grain bill. The only thing left is fine tuning water profile and pH. In order to find what might work best, you have to try some different things. That is a package of variables..... one of those variables is the amount of CaCl and Gypsum. Like I said - kind of hard to communicate a recipe without applying some numbers to those things.
The same argument could be made with EVERY variable in brewing....
"Why are you bothering to use 10.5 pounds of 2 row instead of 10...... who cares, you can't taste it any way."
"Why did you say mash at 154 .... you can't tell the difference between 152 and 154."
"Why did you say to ferment at 68..... there is no way you can tell the difference between a beer fermented at 68 or 70."
On and on..... but in the end, you have to say "something."
PH and water profile plays a big role in a beer. That comes as a package deal..... CaCl, Gypsum, NaCl, Epsom, Lactic Acid, type of water...... any one of those variables might be a small piece - but they all come as part of a bigger puzzle. All of them need to play a role. I know for a fact that switching Chloride and sulfate levels, even when dealing with < 75ppm, in beers like blonde ales, pilsners, light lagers, etc.... has a very noticeable effect. So, I am simply seeing if it has "some" effect in a pale ale as well. I am trying to communicate that in a way that someone else can replicate.
There are lots of extremes that can get you the "same thing" that will not actually be the same thing in the end:
Beer 1 = All RO water, only lactic acid to Mash pH of 5.35
Beer 2 = All RO water only CaCl to mash pH of 5.35
Beer 3 = All RO water only Gypsum to mash pH of 5.35
Beer 4 = High Bicarbonate water only lactic acid to 5.35
Beer 5 = High Bicarbonate water only CaCl to mash pH of 5.35
Beer 6 = High Bicarbonate water only Gypsum to mash pH of 5.35
All of those beers are "the same"....... but they are not the same. They are extreme routes to the same destination. They would taste very different in the end because you would have to use very large amounts of individual things to achieve your goal.
However, you can also use a little bit of a lot of things...... Blending RO/Tap water, some lactic acid, some CaCl, some Gypsum, some NaCl, some epsom...... when you do that to get to the destination you have to start dealing with minor tweaks instead of major swings.
How exactly does one convey potential water profiles without using specific numbers for various mineral additions?
If this was a thread titled: "I claim that I can tell the difference between 80 and 100ppm of sulfate in a finished beer." Then yeah - I get it - doubtful.
But it isn't ...... it is a thread about putting together a recipe and process for fine tuning a beer that is representative of a so-called NE IPA..... in order to do that, in a way that someone else has a chance of replicating, you have to use numbers - whatever those numbers happen to be.
The same argument could be made with EVERY variable in brewing....
"Why are you bothering to use 10.5 pounds of 2 row instead of 10...... who cares, you can't taste it any way."
"Why did you say mash at 154 .... you can't tell the difference between 152 and 154."
"Why did you say to ferment at 68..... there is no way you can tell the difference between a beer fermented at 68 or 70."
On and on..... but in the end, you have to say "something."
PH and water profile plays a big role in a beer. That comes as a package deal..... CaCl, Gypsum, NaCl, Epsom, Lactic Acid, type of water...... any one of those variables might be a small piece - but they all come as part of a bigger puzzle. All of them need to play a role. I know for a fact that switching Chloride and sulfate levels, even when dealing with < 75ppm, in beers like blonde ales, pilsners, light lagers, etc.... has a very noticeable effect. So, I am simply seeing if it has "some" effect in a pale ale as well. I am trying to communicate that in a way that someone else can replicate.
There are lots of extremes that can get you the "same thing" that will not actually be the same thing in the end:
Beer 1 = All RO water, only lactic acid to Mash pH of 5.35
Beer 2 = All RO water only CaCl to mash pH of 5.35
Beer 3 = All RO water only Gypsum to mash pH of 5.35
Beer 4 = High Bicarbonate water only lactic acid to 5.35
Beer 5 = High Bicarbonate water only CaCl to mash pH of 5.35
Beer 6 = High Bicarbonate water only Gypsum to mash pH of 5.35
All of those beers are "the same"....... but they are not the same. They are extreme routes to the same destination. They would taste very different in the end because you would have to use very large amounts of individual things to achieve your goal.
However, you can also use a little bit of a lot of things...... Blending RO/Tap water, some lactic acid, some CaCl, some Gypsum, some NaCl, some epsom...... when you do that to get to the destination you have to start dealing with minor tweaks instead of major swings.
How exactly does one convey potential water profiles without using specific numbers for various mineral additions?
If this was a thread titled: "I claim that I can tell the difference between 80 and 100ppm of sulfate in a finished beer." Then yeah - I get it - doubtful.
But it isn't ...... it is a thread about putting together a recipe and process for fine tuning a beer that is representative of a so-called NE IPA..... in order to do that, in a way that someone else has a chance of replicating, you have to use numbers - whatever those numbers happen to be.
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
I don't think you're ever going to be finished tweaking with this recipe! You seem like a consummate tweaker!
You seem to be arguing a larger point that I don't have any issue with. The best brewers are meticulous and keep detailed records in an attempt to correlate cause and effect. I'm fully supportive of that approach.
My point is that given the parameters of the discussion, this particular variable is of in all likelihood, very little consequence when you stop for a minute and consider the chemistry of the final beer. The other examples you brought up (changing grain amounts, RO vs. high mineral water, etc.) are different variables and, in most cases, more extreme changes. This is an apples and oranges scenario.
This is a great, popular, and useful thread. I appreciate your efforts. Rather than just post pictures of my homebrew, I'm trying to add a different perspective to the actual brewing discussion as food for thought. Just consider it.
My point is that given the parameters of the discussion, this particular variable is of in all likelihood, very little consequence when you stop for a minute and consider the chemistry of the final beer. The other examples you brought up (changing grain amounts, RO vs. high mineral water, etc.) are different variables and, in most cases, more extreme changes. This is an apples and oranges scenario.
This is a great, popular, and useful thread. I appreciate your efforts. Rather than just post pictures of my homebrew, I'm trying to add a different perspective to the actual brewing discussion as food for thought. Just consider it.
OP
OP
In my experience, this type of change has actually profoundly changed beers (with less flavor forward profiles - agreed) like blondes and lagers. So, just switching it up to see if impacts here too - without going to an extreme end and ending with a beer that is too far one way or the other. I tend to go more in measured steps in one direction instead of 10 steps all at once only to realize it was 4 steps too far.
But, what is to be considered? You really only said - "don't bother." What is the suggestion?
I am definitely all for looking into a variety of methods and different approaches. I would genuinely be interested in your approach..... What do you do with a beer like this? Compare and contrast some approaches you have done and what you have or have not found.
If you were going to suggest a water profile/approach ( or multiple profiles leading to successful out comes that are different from one another........ i.e.. "full/rounded" or "dry/assertive" etc..... ) what have you had success with? Or, failures with? To me, that is food for thought and something I would certainly consider - probably even brew to see what I thought as well.
@Braufessor. I've been out of brewing for a little under a year do to moving. My first beer is going to be centennial blonde as it is my go to please the masses beer. My second third fourth beers will be my versions of the information you have posted. Thank you
OP
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Ha...... actually, I really am hoping to try a couple more water strategies to see if I like them (everything I have been doing so far is really basically on the low to moderate end with 2:1 chloride: sulfate. I want to flip that on the low end. And I want to do a couple batches that are 1:1 on the low end and then on the moderate end..... see if any of those stand out. At that point.... I really think I will be settled on this beer and it will go in the bank as one I don't change much any more: Blonde Ale, Dortmunder, Scottish, Dark Mild, Black Lager..... I tend to pick a style, brew it over and over for a year.... move on to new style. Up next - Amber Ale...... and also have some more "tweaking" to do on a porter and brown ale that are close.
The consummate tweaker:
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Actually.... that looks alarmingly similar to my profile pic....... eek.
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Cool.... I do have to say that with all my messing around, the hop combo that I have really started to like is:
Citra/Mosaic/Galaxy 1:1:1 in both kettle additions
Citra/Mosaic 1.5:1.5 in both dry hop additions
That is worth a try in one of your renditions.
Hope it goes well for you.... I got out of the brewing game for about 5 years at one point due to grad school, new house, step kids, life, etc...... It took a few batches to get rolling again, but once I did it was better than ever.
This is my favorite thus far. I like the beer so much that I am afraid to mess with it.
Friend of mine that works at a well known VT brewery liked it so much that he paid my entry fee into 2 competitions.
Fear not...if I win an award, I will be sure to give props to the consummate tweaker
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I'm not sure, but did this beer just get a name and label......
Yup. It's a done deal.
ViciousFishes
Well-Known Member
Speaking of Amber Ale. Thanks to this thread and Braufessor's help, I applied many of these principles to my attempt at a hoppy amber/red. It follows the water profile and hopping schedule of a NE IPA. I did remove the flaked grains and used gelatin as the style seemed to demand it. Delicious!! Here's a pic taken just now while mashing in a Helles for the hot summer to come.
brew703
Well-Known Member
If I were to go with centennial/simcoe/Amarillo, would I sub simcoe for galaxy, centennial for mosaic and Amarillo for citra?
I would dry hop with simcoe and Amarillo only.
Very nice! I am about to do a Red Rye IPA using water and hop schedules from this recipe as well! What was your grain bill?
ViciousFishes
Well-Known Member
I did a 12g batch split between WLP001 & WLP090. WLP001 brought out a somewhat more focused bitterness, while 090 is smoother and more balanced overall between the hops and malt. The 090 with gelatin delivered a clearer, red version of the NE IPA.
20# 2-row
3# Munich I
1# Crystal 40
1# Crystal 80
4oz Crystal 120
4oz Carared
4oz Chocolate
4oz Victory
I plan for 65% efficiency as I no sparge and have loss in pump, hoses, chiller. I expected the nominal amounts of 120, carared and chocolate would get me a rich red hue. Need to find a different mix next time as this was more amber than I was shooting for.
I'm going with:
7lb 8oz Maris Otter
1lb 12oz Rye Malt
8oz Crystal 80
4oz Crystal 60
1oz Chocolate
Should put me around 12.4 SRM for a 5 gallon batch. I'll report back.
Sorry if this was too far off topic, figured it slightly relates to this recipe since I am using the hop and water profile that this recipe gave me!
ViciousFishes
Well-Known Member
I hope no one minds. Braufessor's tweakery is having further reach to adjacent styles - that's good, right?
ViciousFishes
Well-Known Member
I would think you'd substitute the simcoe for mosaic as they're related and can have similar flavor attributes. I did a:
cascade, simcoe, amarillo
that, in a later version, substituted:
citra, simcoe, amarillo
The first version got 39 pts and silver medal in a local competition at Raleigh Brewing. Will submit the second for the next competition next weekend. I also brewed a Red IPA in which I substituted Mosaic for Simcoe -
citra, mosaic, amarillo... it's drinking great. Will also submit that and report back
OP
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Yeah - that is what I have done with that combo and really liked it. I tend to keep centennial out of the dry hop on these beers. I think it makes them "dry."
@braufessor my last couple of beers made here for some reason are tasting super astringent / grassy from what I think is the second dry hop addition. I closed transfer from carboy into a purged keg with the second dry hop. Wait 3-4 days then cold crash with minimal psi on it. After cold crash I transfer out of my filtered dry hop keg to a serving keg for conditioning, yet still just has that grassy taste. Thoughts?
OP
OP
My first thought in regard to grassy is what are you using for hops, hop schedule? Batch size?
Second thought in regard to astringent is what were you doing in regard to water?
I get an astringent taste for about the first week in the serving keg. It fades for me. I think it's the yeast and hop material in suspension that drops in the kegerator over time as it chills.
What does your grain bill look like for something like this ?
OP
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I will have to get back to you in this..... Out of town for national coaching convention for a couple days.... So, no brewing notes with me.
beardandbutter
Member
Just tapped my keg of my beer based off this recipe and the Melcher St Clone thread. Went with Simcoe, Amarillo, Citra hops, calling it my Big SAC NE DIPA.
Grain Bill:
71.1% 2 Row (found out my homebrew store only sells avangard which is 3 SRM so slightly darker than I anticipated)
11.9% White Wheat
4.4% Crystal 15
3% Cara-Pils
5.9% Dextrose
3.7% Acidulated
Mashed at 152F for 60 mins
OG: 1.075 - FG: 1.008
Hops:
.5oz nugget @ FWH
2oz Amarillo @ 10min
1.5oz Citra @ 10 min
2oz amarillo @ hop stand 170F
1.5oz Citra @ hop stand 170F
2oz Simcoe @ hop stand 170F
1oz Citra Dry Hop after 2 days fermenting
1oz Amarillo Dry Hop after 2 days fermenting
1oz Simcoe Dry hop after 2 days fermenting
1oz Citra Keg Hop
1oz Amarillo Keg Hop
1oz Simcoe Keg hop
Yeast:
Wyeast 1318
Ferment at 63F - for 3 days, then let rise to 70 where it sat for 7 more days
Water:
Went for about 200 mg/l sulfate and 100 mg/l chloride
Notes:
15 days grain to glass. First impression is intense tropical fruit, finishes quite dry, I wasn't expecting it to finish so low. Very enjoyable, but I feel like the mouthfeel isn't quite as silky soft as I'm looking for
Grain Bill:
71.1% 2 Row (found out my homebrew store only sells avangard which is 3 SRM so slightly darker than I anticipated)
11.9% White Wheat
4.4% Crystal 15
3% Cara-Pils
5.9% Dextrose
3.7% Acidulated
Mashed at 152F for 60 mins
OG: 1.075 - FG: 1.008
Hops:
.5oz nugget @ FWH
2oz Amarillo @ 10min
1.5oz Citra @ 10 min
2oz amarillo @ hop stand 170F
1.5oz Citra @ hop stand 170F
2oz Simcoe @ hop stand 170F
1oz Citra Dry Hop after 2 days fermenting
1oz Amarillo Dry Hop after 2 days fermenting
1oz Simcoe Dry hop after 2 days fermenting
1oz Citra Keg Hop
1oz Amarillo Keg Hop
1oz Simcoe Keg hop
Yeast:
Wyeast 1318
Ferment at 63F - for 3 days, then let rise to 70 where it sat for 7 more days
Water:
Went for about 200 mg/l sulfate and 100 mg/l chloride
Notes:
15 days grain to glass. First impression is intense tropical fruit, finishes quite dry, I wasn't expecting it to finish so low. Very enjoyable, but I feel like the mouthfeel isn't quite as silky soft as I'm looking for
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
your sulfate is too high and the dextrose isn't helping either.
This beer was:
31% 2 Row
31% Golden Promise
31% Flaked wheat and oats (use whatever percentages and amounts of each you want)
5% Carapils
2% Honey malt
OG: 1.054
Good looking beer. Sweet looking hop combo. Agree with stickyfinger, bring down sulfate and loose dextrose.
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
i just did 10 gallons of wit bier, but i pitched half with Conan and hopped with Citra. it is pretty good for a 4.2% ABV beer. it was about 50% flaked oats and wheat, so I can see how boosting the flaked adjuncts could be key to making better low ABV hop bombs.
crusader1612
Well-Known Member
I knowthe general go To Strains for these types of beers are WY1318 WLP002 or Conan.
however I have just gotten hold of WY1469 - West yorkshire - A Fantastic British strain, with lovely esters etc. lower attenuating ,but with a standard ber like this with no speicalty grains a such
Pale Malr
Wheat Malt
Flaked Malt (Wheat & Oats)
It seems to me like it'd make a good yeast substitute. Thoughts?!
however I have just gotten hold of WY1469 - West yorkshire - A Fantastic British strain, with lovely esters etc. lower attenuating ,but with a standard ber like this with no speicalty grains a such
Pale Malr
Wheat Malt
Flaked Malt (Wheat & Oats)
It seems to me like it'd make a good yeast substitute. Thoughts?!
One of my favorite commercial IPAs of the style is called n00b from Odd 13 brewing. The brewer just said that the base malt for that beer is Wyermann Vienna malt. I might try putting some Vienna in the mix for the next beer that I brew.
beardandbutter
Member
Thanks, I didn't have access to my brun water file and I just checked and it is actually 60:120 SO4:Cl - not sure why I thought it was so high and opposite. Definitely will cut the dextrose either in half or eliminate it next time
I bet losing the dextrose will get you where you want to be. Mashing a little higher could be something to think about additionally.
