Yep, you can't totally fill them while using the PRV as a vent since it hangs down about 0.5" from the lid's highest point. I usually fill the kegs until beer comes out of the PRV, seal it up, push ~10 oz of beer out with CO2, then purge the headspace a million times at 30 psi.
New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA
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Yep, you can't totally fill them while using the PRV as a vent since it hangs down about 0.5" from the lid's highest point. I usually fill the kegs until beer comes out of the PRV, seal it up, push ~10 oz of beer out with CO2, then purge the headspace a million times at 30 psi.
EndOfLine
Well-Known Member
Fill the keg through the liquid post, until it comes out of the pressure relief valve on the top.
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
Shaking the keg back and forth obviously gets rid of some of the trapped air, but I'd be interested to know how much remains after shaking. I always shake the keg back and forth in both directions and air bubbles come out. Can't get it all though I suppose.
You're not getting it. When beer comes out of the PRV, there is still air above the lowest point of the PRV.
EndOfLine
Well-Known Member
So at home you can fill one corny with sanitizer, and another corney wirh sanitizer. keg transfer into the other until it comes out of the pressure relief valve. Twist it shut.
Even if you do that (which I do) you can't fill the keg 100% with sanitizer, so some air will remain.
EndOfLine
Well-Known Member
Under pressure, with liquid coming in and forcing itself out though a Tiny valve, I doubt there will be much of any air. If there is
Which I doubt, I dont think anyone can tell a difference.
No, no, it does not matter if it's under pressure or not. If you rack to a keg through the bev out and vent through the PRV until beer comes out the PRV, there is a volume of air left above the lowest point of the PRV, period. That's all we're saying.
ttuato
Well-Known Member
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
Interesting, anyone use WLP644 or the Citrus/Barbarian blend from Imperial? I'm not sure I'd want tartness in this style though.
There's a ton of air left even when you fill from the bottom... that's the point.
If you have a corny keg standing vertically, the most you can purge is up to the bottom of the PRV valve. Go look at a lid. The entire volume of the lid remains.
THERE IS A SOLUTION THOUGH!
Cut the gas dip tube so it's flush on the inside. Then you tilt the keg to 45 degrees with the gas port up. Attach a gas QD and fill through the liquid dip tube until liquid comes out. Then rock it back and forth a few times until it stops sputtering air. Take the gas QD off, then the liquid QD off and you've got a 100% full corny, no air.
I have thought about doing something similar, but I once had a problem with a super hoppy beer not carbonating due to a suspected layer of CO2-impermeable hop oil on the surface of the beer. Since that batch, I have been installing 3" silicone extensions on my gas in tubes so the CO2 is forced to enter the beer under the surface and break up the oil layer as the bubbles rise to the surface during carbonation. I never had a problem after using the extensions, but maybe the batch that wouldn't carb was caused by some other unknown.
That is quite the hypothesis - I'd put money on another factor. Why not add a little priming sugar and naturally carbonate?
It's been known (or thought) to happen... Who knows. I'm not interested in naturally carbing at this point as there are way too many other variables I'm playing around with right now. Someday, though. It's definitely on my list.
OP
OP
So..... Brewed a blonde ale tonight to build up a batch of conan yeast. Throughout the process, I did a "triangle" type test with some of my IPA's
A = 140 Sulfate/70 Chloride
B = 70 Sulfate/140 Chloride
C = 120 Sulfate/120 Chloride
Everything else about the beers was the same.
I tasted them 2 versions at a time. 2 glasses of the same, 1 different. I even KNEW which ones I poured 2 of, but they were marked on the bottom of the glass. Mixed them up myself to the point that I did not know which was which..... and then tasted all 3 just to see if I could tell the difference. Which 2 were the same and which 1 was different. I did this 6 times with each head to head comparison.... just a few sips of each (so, I did not get wasted
A vs. B (3 out of 6)
A vs. C (1 out of 6)
B vs. C (2 out of 6)
So, 6 out of 18 = the same as random chance. But, I have to be honest - I bet half of the 6 I got "right" were total guesses on my part. And, that was with pouring the beers myself, mixing them up myself, KNOWING which there was two samples of vs. 1 in each flight.
I feel confident in saying there is not a significant difference in those above water profiles. All were good. None of them were immediately distinguishable from each other. None were consistently distinguishable. I would highly doubt that a more rigorous tasting, with truly blind participants would yield results where people could tell the difference.
Bottom line, in my opinion, any combination of Sulfate and Chloride in say .... the 60-150ppm (and 5.3-5.45 pH) is going to give you a good, solid NE IPA if the other components are on point.
Simple water version of this message:
100% RO water
Per 5 gallons of Mash and Sparge water
1 tsp of CaCl and 1 tsp Gypsum
1 tsp of CaCl and 1/2 tsp Gypsum
1/2 tsp of CaCl and 1 tsp Gypsum
Anything like that is going to get you where you want to go.
A = 140 Sulfate/70 Chloride
B = 70 Sulfate/140 Chloride
C = 120 Sulfate/120 Chloride
Everything else about the beers was the same.
I tasted them 2 versions at a time. 2 glasses of the same, 1 different. I even KNEW which ones I poured 2 of, but they were marked on the bottom of the glass. Mixed them up myself to the point that I did not know which was which..... and then tasted all 3 just to see if I could tell the difference. Which 2 were the same and which 1 was different. I did this 6 times with each head to head comparison.... just a few sips of each (so, I did not get wasted
A vs. B (3 out of 6)
A vs. C (1 out of 6)
B vs. C (2 out of 6)
So, 6 out of 18 = the same as random chance. But, I have to be honest - I bet half of the 6 I got "right" were total guesses on my part. And, that was with pouring the beers myself, mixing them up myself, KNOWING which there was two samples of vs. 1 in each flight.
I feel confident in saying there is not a significant difference in those above water profiles. All were good. None of them were immediately distinguishable from each other. None were consistently distinguishable. I would highly doubt that a more rigorous tasting, with truly blind participants would yield results where people could tell the difference.
Bottom line, in my opinion, any combination of Sulfate and Chloride in say .... the 60-150ppm (and 5.3-5.45 pH) is going to give you a good, solid NE IPA if the other components are on point.
Simple water version of this message:
100% RO water
Per 5 gallons of Mash and Sparge water
1 tsp of CaCl and 1 tsp Gypsum
1 tsp of CaCl and 1/2 tsp Gypsum
1/2 tsp of CaCl and 1 tsp Gypsum
Anything like that is going to get you where you want to go.
grassfeeder
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jan 30, 2014
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- 107
I am using the 'Dryhop' one as well as their new "juice" in a split batch this week/weekend.
EndOfLine
Well-Known Member
So..... Brewed a blonde ale tonight to build up a batch of conan yeast. Throughout the process, I did a "triangle" type test with some of my IPA's
A = 140 Sulfate/70 Chloride
B = 70 Sulfate/140 Chloride
C = 120 Sulfate/120 Chloride
Everything else about the beers was the same.
I tasted them 2 versions at a time. 2 glasses of the same, 1 different. I even KNEW which ones I poured 2 of, but they were marked on the bottom of the glass. Mixed them up myself to the point that I did not know which was which..... and then tasted all 3 just to see if I could tell the difference. Which 2 were the same and which 1 was different. I did this 6 times with each head to head comparison.... just a few sips of each (so, I did not get wasted
A vs. B (3 out of 6)
A vs. C (1 out of 6)
B vs. C (2 out of 6)
So, 6 out of 18 = the same as random chance. But, I have to be honest - I bet half of the 6 I got "right" were total guesses on my part. And, that was with pouring the beers myself, mixing them up myself, KNOWING which there was two samples of vs. 1 in each flight.
I feel confident in saying there is not a significant difference in those above water profiles. All were good. None of them were immediately distinguishable from each other. None were consistently distinguishable. I would highly doubt that a more rigorous tasting, with truly blind participants would yield results where people could tell the difference.
Bottom line, in my opinion, any combination of Sulfate and Chloride in say .... the 60-150ppm (and 5.3-5.45 pH) is going to give you a good, solid NE IPA if the other components are on point.
Simple water version of this message:
100% RO water
Per 5 gallons of Mash and Sparge water
1 tsp of CaCl and 1 tsp Gypsum
1 tsp of CaCl and 1/2 tsp Gypsum
1/2 tsp of CaCl and 1 tsp Gypsum
Anything like that is going to get you where you want to go.
Awesome dude!! Thanks for the test!
How is the NE Esb?
I brewed a version of this a couple weeks ago and the beer turned out with good aroma but completely bland. This was my 4th or 5th attempt, all similar to the original recipe. The previous batches were tasty (little high FG usually). The main difference here was that I used distilled water and only gypsum and calcium chloride (about 140ppm sulfate/chloride). Normally I use 100% RO, but I was waiting a lab report to get a baseline. I mashed 149, pitched 2nd generation WLP 007. Used 12.5 oz of mosaic/galazy in a 6 gallon batch. Is it possible the lack of Na/Mg was enough to take a normally delicious beer and make it bland? Or am I missing something else here?
70% Golden Promise
15% Flaked Wheat
15% Flaked Oats
70% Golden Promise
15% Flaked Wheat
15% Flaked Oats
OP
OP
I have it kegged but have not got it on gas yet. Out of the dry hop keg it was pretty good. Definitely like an over the top british bitter. I used 1318 yeast, and I am not sure if I would use that again on it or not. Maybe use 002 or 1469 in a future attempt??
My EKG's were fairly old too - even though they have been in a vac-pac jar in the freezer..... still not the greatest. Right now I would say it was "good" and I am hoping the flavors kind of come together a bit more. I want to get it carbed up and then try it on the beer engine in a week or two. I will check back in on it when I get it serving.
.... Cautiously optimistic about a NE "Amber" I kegged last night. Cascade, amarillo and Centennial hops, no caramel malts..... just used my NE IPA grain bill and D-180 Syrup for color/flavor. Pretty good out of dry hop keg and hoping it will get better (ambers usually seem to improve for me over the course of 2-4 weeks).
OP
OP
I suppose it is possible perhaps.... I have read that small levels of Mg are desirable in IPA's.... but, we are only talking 15ppm or something like that. I suppose since Distilled water is totally devoid of minerals, maybe the overall lower mineral content contributed to a lack of "pop" in the hoppiness. However, it is not like you did not add any minerals at all. And, based on what I found comparing different levels of Sulfate and Chloride, I would be a little surprised if such minor levels of Mg for instance could really make a big difference.
Other, perhaps more likely, sources would be different hops that were not as good as previous hops..... or perhaps hops that have been open longer. Maybe minor oxygen exposure in this batch versus another batch. Maybe dry hop that was done at a bit different time in primary. Maybe yeast difference or fermentation difference in regard to temps.......
I guess there are probably bigger players possible than 15ppm of Mg....
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
I would NOT bet on the water being the factor either. I think for our purposes RO and distilled are very similar. Distilled is theoretically purer, but it is not likely to be purer if people are drinking it, as it would be unhealthy to drink a lot of water that is too pure.
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
That's a good idea to minimize air! Thanks. If you get new kegs, they often come with a short air-in tube, like only 1/8" or so. I suppose you could buy small replacement air-in tubes.
As far as cutting down my other air-in tubes, have people used a hacksaw to cut off such a small piece? I don't think my pipe cutter would work with the flange on the tube.
I used the same supplier for hops (farmhousebrewingsupply), and they are sealed 4oz packs. I dry hopped on day 2 when it was vigorously fermenting and on day 4 when airlock activity was all but done. Transferring from carboy to keg I used CO2 to push it out and siphon into the keg on the outlet side. I purged the keg thoroughly. If anything oxygen pickup should've been much worse on the previous batch than this batch. Fermentation was probably a little colder (closer to 64*F actual beer temperature) this time, but attenuation was 80-82%. Everything on this batch looked perfect.
EndOfLine
Well-Known Member
My guess would be a dryer beer? Sometimes with the fg gets to low the hops have no foundation to stand on. You said yourself that your other batches had higher fg.
EndOfLine
Well-Known Member
Cool. I hope they turn out well. My casks gain some mojo when it carbed up a tad. I served at normal carb lvls.
ttuato
Well-Known Member
Nothing tart about wlp644. It is Saccro not Brett. There is a long thread on HBT discussing this.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=326861
Inspired by another HBT thread that uses WLP644 in a NE IPA https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=591765
I decided to try it with OP recipe V2. Unfortunately I had a snafu on brew day and my FG finished as 1.020. It was definitely very fruity. It was overrun with mango smell with some pineapple. Not sure if it was the yeast esters (I dislike mangos) or the sweetness of that batch, but I did not care for it.
I can tell you from experience that a pipe cutter is not the right tool....
I didn't have the tools and I have a lot of kegs (12) so i had a fab shop cut them with a stainless cutting saw. Was cheaper and less frustrating than trying to do myself. Probably not cost effective to do only a couple this way though.
trav77
Well-Known Member
A metal cutting disc on an angle grinder has worked fine for me. Then just clean it up a touch with a flap disc if necessary.
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
In that vein, say I wanted to keg condition but don't want to time it out precisely with respect to transferring with limited extract remaining to be fermented out. I assume the best procedure from a LODO perspective would be to rack into a fully purged keg, pop the top quickly and pour in priming solution, purge the headspace a few times with CO2? I think that might be a way to extend the shelf life of hop bomb beers even more without doing all of the LODO pre-fermentation stuff.
Bingo. This process to reduce packaging O2 is by far the simplest adjustment to make. Just get a pressure gauge to monitor keg pressure (at room temp you're gonna need like ~40 psi to get proper carbonation). It raises so slowly that after about a week you just need to check it and burp it if its over the target pressure. It takes ~2 weeks to ferment the priming sugar. But if you have excess pressure you'll want to release it so you don't over carb. I do about 100g of sugar to 100g of water when i go this route, but obviously that will depend upon your volume and your fermentation temp and pressure. Worst case you bleed it.
Just use a dremel with abrasive cutting blade. Tube will get warm so hold in a vise or use gloves.
I highly doubt lodo pre-fermentation business has anything to do with extending the life of any beer. Post ferm is where I would think you'd want to focus your energy.
Are people under the assumption that keg conditioning is better in terms of oxidation than transferring under a closed, fully CO2-purged system and force carbing?
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
yes, i agree that the post-ferm steps are likely most important for this style, at least for me. i don't care about subtle malt character at all in this beer, and I do all of my character hopping during primary fermentation anyway.
i'd like to see if keg conditioning (with the required relatively warm storage for 1.5-2 weeks) is better than force carbonating and cold storage for the full time. Better in this sense being stronger hop character and aroma for a longer amount of time. Maybe the small residual oxygen even in a fully purged keg does some damage that is significant in terms of hop character/shelf life.
I'd like to try this:
-purge a keg completely of sanitizer through a shortened gas-in post/QD
-rack primary-hopped beer through the beer-out QD
-pop top and quickly add priming solution
-purge headspace 5-6X at 10 PSI to clear out headspace as much as possible again
-let condition for 2 weeks and then chill
I don't know if I'll get around to it anytime soon, but it is an intriguing idea.
It would be a great experiment if you brewed a double batch and force carbed one of the kegs. That's the only way you'll really know. I wonder if a completely CO2-purged keg filled in a closed system will even contain enough O2 for the yeast to carb it properly. Since we're talking about doing everything possible to minimize O2, that's the only way to transfer to a keg in my opinion. If you purposely have to oxygenate the beer for the yeast to naturally carb it, it kind of defeats the purpose of what we're discussing. Another factor to consider is that if you naturally carb, you need to keep the beer at room temp for two weeks. Beer at room temp will degrade faster than beer at serving pressure, so you may be taking a step forward and a step back.
I could do the experiment, but I'm not sure if it's worth it since there might not be enough O2 for the yeast to do their thing with the priming sugar and the need to keep the beer at a not so optimal temperature for so long.
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
If yeast needed O2 to consume sugars we wouldn't have beer, no?
Certainly the warm storage is concerning. However, I have noticed that beers I've kept in the primary for over 3 weeks have come out super hoppy and delicious, so I have hope the warm storage will not be as big of a deal as it seems, especially if my primary fermentation is pretty fast with only maybe 5 day dryhop.
EndOfLine
Well-Known Member
The Brulopher dudes have done two xbmts regarding force carbing vs natural last month I think?
If you want to cross compare something new, split a batch of IPA in two kegs. Purge one with just gas, and go full try hard with the other: flush gas tube, 45 degree angle to get the any gas that could be under the lid, purge by pumping out Sani
See if you can taste the diff in a blind triangle test
Yeast do not require O2 to metabolize sugar. S. cerevisiae uses O2 during the growth (lag) phase due to a phenomenon called the Crabtree Effect, but does not require it for fermentation.
ttuato
Well-Known Member
I greatly appreciate all of the knowledge being shared on this thread, I genuinely do. Having said that, out of respect to the OP can we please limit the discussion on this thread to "Northeast IPA" and stop with the thread hijacking....
The discussion around limiting oxygen and the processes to accomplish it is 100% inline with the OP's topic. There's more to brewing than just recipes, especially this style.
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
I would obviously agree. I apologize if some find the discussions off-course. I will defer to Braufessor.
