New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

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A recent NEIPA I brewed came out post fermentation at 4.7 after a huge dry hop and it tasted a little flabby. Tweaked it so the next was 4.4 and it was much better. From my research it seems like 4.3 - 4.5 is what the big boys target.
 
For all of the things I track and measure PH is not one of them...aside from calculating my mash PH using software. If I were to want to start measuring and altering ph throughout the entire brewing process what would be the easiest way to do so? Obviously a ph meter and some acid come to mind but is it that simple?
 
HopsAreGood said:
For all of the things I track and measure PH is not one of them...aside from calculating my mash PH using software. If I were to want to start measuring and altering ph throughout the entire brewing process what would be the easiest way to do so? Obviously a ph meter and some acid come to mind but is it that simple?
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That’s all. Room temp not carbonated reading. Lactic or phosphoric acid and water software such as Bru’n Water
 
Dgallo said:
That’s all. Room temp not carbonated reading. Lactic or phosphoric acid and water software such as Bru’n Water
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So when would be the ideal times to be measuring and adjusting? And what would be target numbers to be aiming for at each step?
 
HopsAreGood said:
So when would be the ideal times to be measuring and adjusting? And what would be target numbers to be aiming for at each step?
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I personally do not adjust post mash ph for NEIPA, so I’m sure someone will answer this better but you ideally want to check post mash, post boil, pre and post dryhop
 
Dgallo said:
I personally do not adjust post mash ph for NEIPA, so I’m sure someone will answer this better but you ideally want to check post mash, post boil, pre and post dryhop
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One thing I am aware of is that large dry hops can fairly significantly raise PH, so adjusting at that point seems to make sense. I think finished beer in the 4.2-4.5 range is ideal, but I’ve also seen some people’s say that adding acid post dry hop can leave an acidic twang that is not very desirable. We’ll see, maybe I’ll start playing around with it. I’d be interested to see the final ph of the beers I’ve been brewing for years because I have absolutely no idea what they’d be.

Could be one of those things where maybe they’re higher than I realize and a few simple adjustments could make a major positive impact.
 
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Rainy said:
Any ideas about pre-boil or post-boil pH?
I vaguely remember multiple brewers (Dan Suarez, Henry Nguyen: "Tareget knock out pH, pre-fermentation of about 5" (at what temp?)) targeting less than 5.2 for preboil pH to get a softer bitterness from the hot side hops.
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Yeah some of the hazy makers advocate getting the ph down to close to 5 by knockout. I have read it's supposed to decrease bitterness. I usually hit 5.4 mash ph and then add some more acid during the boil. It usually drops my KO ph to about 5.2 or so. I've wanted to experiment adding more acid and going even lower but I've kind of gotten lazy lately and stopped measuring KO ph on my last 5-6 batches.
 
I aim on the lower end of the mash scale 5.2 ish when I know I am going to do a massive dry hop and this generally means no further adjustments are required. Knockout ph around 4.9 - 5.0 seems to be the sweet spot so I will check with around 10 mins left of the boil and adjust if I remember.
 
If you add a significant amount of hops at say 170, will this raise the ph from whatever it was at knockout? Which I’m assuming you mean when you turn of your heat source? If so would another reading after adding the whirlpool hops be needed?
 
HopsAreGood said:
If you add a significant amount of hops at say 170, will this raise the ph from whatever it was at knockout? Which I’m assuming you mean when you turn of your heat source? If so would another reading after adding the whirlpool hops be needed?
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Knockout is when you transfer from kettle to fermenter. So it'll be after any whirlpool addition. That's when I take my reading.
 
HopsAreGood said:
Got it....Makes sense. I’ve seen many people refer to knockout as when they turn off their heat source. Hence my question.
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As with many things, probably depends on who you ask. But I think more often than not brewers consider knockout the transfer out of the kettle. Usually turning off the heat source is called flame-out.
 
marjen said:
Quick PH question. What should ph look like for these beers, post mash, post boil? Also if adding lactic acid, when is the best time to add it?
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I don't worry about anything aside from mash pH, unless I'm doing a sour.
this is because if you get your mash ph correct, the remainder will fall into line, unless theres an infection, and you can normally tell an infection by taste.
 
Hey guys just wanted to share a brewery with you guys that you really need to check out if you get the Opportunity. Fiden’s Brewing Co in Albany NY. They are absolutely blowing up locally and will sell out of 4bbl in 32 oz crowlers typically in 5 hours. No joke they are going to become top 5 in the nation it’s that good. Sam from other half visited and was so impressed he took kegs with him to put on as guest taps because he wanted to help them get their name out. (That says something). Here is their Necessary Means with Galaxy- Citra/mosaic hotside and Galaxy in the dryhop with a touch of Citra. No joke, probably top 10 beers I’ve had.
D7D971F2-9319-46BC-A62E-86F4194BC0BF.jpeg
 
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Good stuff, if I ever find myself in the Albany area I’ll definitely check it out. Reminds me a little bit of Troon which is a small four barrel brewery near me. They brew in a small barn on a beautiful property with a very high-end farm to table restaurant. They have no tasting room and the only way you can get their beer is in 32 ounce crowlers or on tap in the restaurant. Prior to the pandemic they would announce a release on Instagram and would be completely sold out within an hour and a half max. During the pandemic they would announce a release and give a link to a square site where you can order, and it would sell out within like 10 minutes. It’s great for them that they have such demand but it’s really frustrating for people who can never get their hands on any of it. The Instagram release pages are littered with hundreds of comments of people complaining that it’s impossible to get a crowler.

I once traded a can of kkkinggg Jjjuliuss for a Crowler and I definitely got the upper hand. It’s that good.

https://www.instagram.com/troonbrewing/?hl=en
 
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Dgallo said:
Hey guys just wanted to share a brewery with you guys that you really need to check out if you get the Opportunity. Fiden’s Brewing Co in Albany NY. They are absolutely blowing up locally and will sell out of 4bbl in 32 oz crowlers typically in 5 hours. No joke they are going to become top 5 in the nation it’s that good. Sam from other half visited and was so impressed he took kegs with him to put on as guest taps because he wanted to help them get their name out. (That says something). Here is their Necessary Means with Galaxy- Citra/mosaic hotside and Galaxy in the dryhop with a touch of Citra. No joke, probably top 10 beers I’ve had. View attachment 684634
Click to expand...

Yet another amazing American Beer I'll not get to try
😭😭😭😭
 
stickyfinger said:
Decided to get 8 lbs of cheap 2019 Galaxy at YVH during the sale. I also got a pound of Idaho 7, which I've never used. Does it make a great single hop beer or should I mix it with something?
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In my opinion you can definitely use it as a single hop, but blending it obviously gives you more options. If you’ve never used it why not try it as a single hop so you can really get to know what it brings to the table.

I will say it’s one of those hops that people get different characteristics from. Whether it’s because of how it’s used in the brewing process or the particular lot of the crop. Sometimes it’s extremely orangey and sometimes it’s very dank. It’s also got a very green herbaceous character to it that some like and some don’t. Many people often use the black tea descriptor but I’ve never personally gotten that from it. It’s been touted as an incredible hot side hop while some like it in the dry hop and some not so much. I personally like it pretty much anywhere, but using it by itself is always a good idea if you’ve never used it before.
 
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true. why not. if i do a split batch, what works well with it. I've been thinking about it. What can compete with Galaxy? Every single beer I make with a large amount of galaxy is awesome. everyone loves it. i love it. it's the best hop ever. can anything or blend compete at all?

HopsAreGood said:
In my opinion you can definitely use it as a single hop, but blending it obviously gives you more options. If you’ve never used it why not try it as a single hop so you can really get to know what it brings to the table.
Click to expand...
 
stickyfinger said:
true. why not. if i do a split batch, what works well with it. I've been thinking about it. What can compete with Galaxy? Every single beer I make with a large amount of galaxy is awesome. everyone loves it. i love it. it's the best hop ever. can anything or blend compete at all?
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See above, I added a bit more.
 
stickyfinger said:
Decided to get 8 lbs of cheap 2019 Galaxy at YVH during the sale. I also got a pound of Idaho 7, which I've never used. Does it make a great single hop beer or should I mix it with something?
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I think idaho 7 is great! I did a single hopped pale ale with it and got mostly smooth pineyness with nice orange. if you want to see my full description check it out here: American IPA - Base Pale Ale Recipe for Single hop Beers

As for blending it with other hops, my fav so far is Idaho7, Citra, Nelson with Columbus in the boil kettle for bittering. Did that hop combo with voss kviek (wanted the orange esters) and it worked out awesome. Surprisingly I haven't thought to use it with galaxy yet.
 
Dgallo said:
Hey guys just wanted to share a brewery with you guys that you really need to check out if you get the Opportunity. Fiden’s Brewing Co in Albany NY. They are absolutely blowing up locally and will sell out of 4bbl in 32 oz crowlers typically in 5 hours. No joke they are going to become top 5 in the nation it’s that good. Sam from other half visited and was so impressed he took kegs with him to put on as guest taps because he wanted to help them get their name out. (That says something). Here is their Necessary Means with Galaxy- Citra/mosaic hotside and Galaxy in the dryhop with a touch of Citra. No joke, probably top 10 beers I’ve had. View attachment 684634
Click to expand...
Could you describe how they stand out? What makes the beer so different from others?
Did you talk to the brewers about their process?
Looks tasty, tnks for sharing.
 
beervoid said:
Could you describe how they stand out? What makes the beer so different from others?
Did you talk to the brewers about their process?
Looks tasty, tnks for sharing.
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I’ve met the brewery once, right before this whole mess, so obviously never got close enough to bring in a brew or even ask any questions.

What blows my mind is there is only atouch of bitterness and only a touch of hoppy sweetener, that pseudo sweetness. It’s honestly perfectly in balance. The hops profiles are bold and upfront bUt not overly so, so there is not weird off hop flavors like machine oil, cat piss, or overripe/rotten fruit. The mouthfeel has treehouse written all over it no joke the same or even better them. I know that sounds crazy but you guys know I brew a lot of ipa and drink a lot of ipas from all the best in the US and I can easily say this is an amazing beer with only a handful being better
 
Dgallo said:
I’ve met the brewery once, right before this whole mess, so obviously never got close enough to bring in a brew or even ask any questions.

What blows my mind is there is only atouch of bitterness and only a touch of hoppy sweetener, that pseudo sweetness. It’s honestly perfectly in balance. The hops profiles are bold and upfront bUt not overly so, so there is not weird off hop flavors like machine oil, cat piss, or overripe/rotten fruit. The mouthfeel has treehouse written all over it no joke the same or even better them. I know that sounds crazy but you guys know I brew a lot of ipa and drink a lot of ipas from all the best in the US and I can easily say this is an amazing beer with only a handful being better
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Cool, hope you get the chance to pick their brains one day.
I saw their socratic questioning nr 4 had 2row chit and honey malt. No wheat or oats.
 
Did anyone catch the Instagram Live between JC from Trillium and Sam from Other Half today? I missed it but apparently they were taking about the recipe formulations of the beers they brewed for each other recently.
 
Dgallo said:
only a touch of hoppy sweetener, that pseudo sweetness
Click to expand...
speaking of this description, I have compared my beers to a couple of local breweries that I like, and both of them have that same "sweetness" almost like artificial sweetener that my beers don't have at all. This isn't a bad thing though as one of the breweries that sweetness is pretty heavy but the other is just a little and doesn't overpower it. What brings that quality? I have not brewed with lactose, but I always had a hunch that the lactose (if used too much) would cause this but I could be totally off base on that.
 
Noob_Brewer said:
speaking of this description, I have compared my beers to a couple of local breweries that I like, and both of them have that same "sweetness" almost like artificial sweetener that my beers don't have at all. This isn't a bad thing though as one of the breweries that sweetness is pretty heavy but the other is just a little and doesn't overpower it. What brings that quality? I have not brewed with lactose, but I always had a hunch that the lactose (if used too much) would cause this but I could be totally off base on that.
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The sweetness I’m referring to is most likely just the combination of honey malt and fruit forward hops. More of a perceived sweetness. In your case it’s possible it’s lactose. since lactose is considered an allergen, some states mandate that brewers list its use in beers.
 
Noob_Brewer said:
speaking of this description, I have compared my beers to a couple of local breweries that I like, and both of them have that same "sweetness" almost like artificial sweetener that my beers don't have at all. This isn't a bad thing though as one of the breweries that sweetness is pretty heavy but the other is just a little and doesn't overpower it. What brings that quality? I have not brewed with lactose, but I always had a hunch that the lactose (if used too much) would cause this but I could be totally off base on that.
Click to expand...
Play around with crystal/melanoidin malts
 
Dgallo said:
The sweetness I’m referring to is most likely just the combination of honey malt and fruit forward hops. More of a perceived sweetness. In your case it’s possible it’s lactose. since lactose is considered an allergen, some states mandate that brewers list its use in beers.
Click to expand...

Between stouts and some NEIPA's, I've brewed with lactose a bit and I feel like I can tell whether it's present. I have to say that about half, if not more NEIPAs in Chicago area have some amount of lactose in them. They're not required to disclose so they don't...

At the end of the day, people just can't help but love sugary drinks.

@Noob_Brewer if you keg, you can easily try adding little by little if you're not happy with Honey malt. Just dissolve a few oz in hot water, then add to keg.
 
secretlevel said:
Between stouts and some NEIPA's, I've brewed with lactose a bit and I feel like I can tell whether it's present. I have to say that about half, if not more NEIPAs in Chicago area have some amount of lactose in them. They're not required to disclose so they don't...

At the end of the day, people just can't help but love sugary drinks.

@Noob_Brewer if you keg, you can easily try adding little by little if you're not happy with Honey malt. Just dissolve a few oz in hot water, then add to keg.
Click to expand...

This is a common thought, but lactose is ~6x less sweet (to humans at least) than table sugar.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweetness#Examples_of_sweet_substances
I would guess the lower amount of IBUs, usage of fruit-forward hops, low attenuating yeast strains and the use of actual fruit are all contributing more towards the perception of sweetness than whatever amount of lactose is used.
 
hmmm, not sure if lactose dissolves well in cold liquid, but might have to try a pseudo experiment to find out what lactose brings to the table. Thinking of three small tasters: 1) lactose in water (might be gross lol), 2) lactose in a finished beer I have in keg, 3) same finished beer but without lactose. So would scale down normal lactose addition for a 5g finished batch to add it to two small glasses. Mix em and try em. I have some lactose so might be worth a try and even though might not be the same as using lactose on hot side, it should give me some idea of what it brings to a beer.
 
Noob_Brewer said:
hmmm, not sure if lactose dissolves well in cold liquid, but might have to try a pseudo experiment to find out what lactose brings to the table. Thinking of three small tasters: 1) lactose in water (might be gross lol), 2) lactose in a finished beer I have in keg, 3) same finished beer but without lactose. So would scale down normal lactose addition for a 5g finished batch to add it to two small glasses. Mix em and try em. I have some lactose so might be worth a try and even though might not be the same as using lactose on hot side, it should give me some idea of what it brings to a beer.
Click to expand...
IMO lactose definitely adds sweetness to beer, put 1 lb in a 5 gal batch and see what happens
 
I have done it and even gone higher. For me I really don’t get sweet, but I certainly can see how others might. It just adds a very noticeable difference to the mouthfeel and texture.
 
I've used lactose in a few batches. Mostly milk stouts, of course. The three NEIPA's that I've added 1lb of lactose finished at 1.012(2), and 1.013. The stouts around 1.021 to 1.016. So the IPA's just seem to have a softer mouthfeel, the stouts seem to have some sweetness. Probably the difference in FG is the more important variable. I'm not afraid of adding lactose to a NEIPA, but honestly, all of those that I have tried were recipes from others :cool: .

The ones that I have designed don't have lactose and I don't miss it in any way..
 
Frieds said:
Did anyone catch the Instagram Live between JC from Trillium and Sam from Other Half today? I missed it but apparently they were taking about the recipe formulations of the beers they brewed for each other recently.
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Just watched it, but there was not too much brewer information. More about how they evolved as breweries and a bit about shelf stability of NEIPAs
Great though to see again the confirmation that for hoppy beers temperature is a lot more important than oxygen.
They mention near the end of the instagram webcast that a well packed beer with low TPO sitting at room temperature for two weeks, will oxidise way faster than a medium well packaged beer sitting cold the whole time.

Saw something similar mentioned a while ago on a mbaa workshop about making hoppy beers and there's even a a scientific paper about it.
I wrote about this a while ago on beeradvocate, so just copy pasting what I wrote there:

They discuss it shortly in this podcast: Juicy Dry Hopping
And I think the research might be this one: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/03610470.2019.1603002
It's also discussed in the slides of Daniel Sharp for the juicy dry hopping workshop at the master brewers conference 2019.
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Quoting the abstract of the paper talking about this issue:

"It is generally recognized within the brewing industry that hop aroma and flavor in beer changes as beer ages post-packaging. Lager beer staling has been studied extensively, while dry-hopped beer has received limited attention. This study evaluated the impact of dissolved oxygen on the sensory and hop volatile profiles of dry-hopped beer during storage. Commercially-brewed dry-hopped beer was dosed with oxygen in a controlled fashion to create beers with a range of dissolved oxygen concentrations from approximately 40 to 250 μg/L 40 to 250 µg/L and then stored under chilled (3 °C) or accelerated (30 °C) storage conditions. ... Sensory results identified storage temperature, used as a proxy for aging duration, as having the greatest effect on aroma during storage. Dissolved oxygen concentration was observed to have a lesser, but significant, impact at both high and low storage temperatures after only two weeks of aging. Higher temperature and dissolved oxygen concentrations resulted in decreased tropical, citrus, and hoppy characteristics and the expression of malty, dried fruit, and cardboard aromas. Hop derived monoterpenes were not significantly affected by treatment temperature or dissolved oxygen, suggesting stale character expression from alternate sources such as lipid oxidation or Strecker aldehydes formation."

Further on in the paper: "Sensory results clearly indicated that accelerated storage conditions (i.e., temperature at 30 °C versus 3 °C) had a greater effect than DO (dissolved oxygen) levels on hoppy aromatic characteristics during storage. All high temperature stored samples exhibited higher perceived sweetness than the low temperature stored samples. "
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Rainy said:
Just watched it, but there was not too much brewer information. More about how they evolved as breweries and a bit about shelf stability of NEIPAs
Great though to see again the confirmation that for hoppy beers temperature is a lot more important than oxygen.
They mention near the end of the instagram webcast that a well packed beer with low TPO sitting at room temperature for two weeks, will oxidise way faster than a medium well packaged beer sitting cold the whole time.

Saw something similar mentioned a while ago on a mbaa workshop about making hoppy beers and there's even a a scientific paper about it.
I wrote about this a while ago on beeradvocate, so just copy pasting what I wrote there:
Click to expand...
Well there is a correlation between the two, so you really can't say temperature is more important than oxygen. Oxidation occurs faster at warmer temps but the limiting factor is how much oxygen is present and available to oxidize compounds.

take the two beers you mentioned and put them through the same testing. Take the lowest dissolved oxygen beer at canning and then take a mediocre processed canned beer and see which one is impacted worse by oxidation in both the warm and cold environment. Would bet my paycheck that the better packaged beer will be effected far less by o2 than the other beer in both environments
 
"Dissolved oxygen concentration was observed to have a lesser, but significant, impact at both high and low storage temperatures after only two weeks of aging. Higher temperature and dissolved oxygen concentrations resulted in decreased tropical, citrus, and hoppy characteristics and the expression of malty, dried fruit, and cardboard aromas."

Thanks for this paper @Rainy ! I think the paper was actually quite transparent in stating that both temp and oxygen matter. Whether temp matters more than oxygen though doesn't really matter to me as much at this time though. Why? Because I keg and the keezer maintains nice cool temps. But oxygen? there are many places along my processes where I could screwup and oxygen enters the beer. I am lucky thus far though that while my kegs have lasted 3-4 weeks on average, none have had these oxidation/aging descriptors after two weeks that I or other friends could detect.

From another personal perspective, it would have been nice to see the effect of ambient room temps (68-70ish) on aging rather than the 86degrees they used as a high temp to accelerate aging. For me this would have been helpful because I always ask the question to myself of how fast would a nice canned commercial beer degrade in hoppy character if I didn't put it in the fridge (because its full) and just put it in my cabinet.
 

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