New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[Dgallo]

Green Islands was the worst.

I guess everyone has their own tastes for NEIPAS because I 1000% disagree. Green island, Nelson Bomb, and Down under Bomb are in my opinion the best. Did miss the last canning of green island but I can’t inagine it was that bad. But hey, I also can’t stand treehouses’s green.. it was malty and the hops didn’t pop at all on their 6/4 canning run of it
@marchuk96

 

[Loud Brewing]

I think that a lot of these breweries are always tweaking their hop dosages to create better margins. It's also the fact that it's an agricultural product with tons of variables in ingridients

 

[TBryerton]

I guess everyone has their own tastes for NEIPAS because I 1000% disagree. Green island, Nelson Bomb, and Down under Bomb are in my opinion the best. Did miss the last canning of green island but I can’t inagine it was that bad. But hey, I also can’t stand treehouses’s green.. it was malty and the hops didn’t pop at all on their 6/4 canning run of it
@marchuk96

I haven’t had the other two you mentioned. The Green Island I had was awhile back. It tasted like it was dry hopped about an hour ago. But like I said, they’ve had a few good beers. I like the No Pumpkin and there was a mosaic / galaxy beer (and maybe Citra?) I had last year that was great. Can’t recall the name.

 

[Dgallo]

I haven’t had the other two you mentioned. The Green Island I had was awhile back. It tasted like it was dry hopped about an hour ago. But like I said, they’ve had a few good beers. I like the No Pumpkin and there was a mosaic / galaxy beer (and maybe Citra?) I had last year that was great. Can’t recall the name.

That sounds like something they would do in their double plus good series

 

[beervoid]

I have also been experimenting with total hop loads and wp/dh ratios at home. I have several friends who own and operate professional breweries in SoCal (wicks, route 30, euryale) and I have been given the same answer in regards to their hop quantities in neipa offerings. They all claim to use 4-5 lbs total per barrel and always slightly higher dosing ratio in the dh.

So I attempted to follow these guidelines with my recent 10 gal batch and felt that the final product was slightly muted on both flavor and aroma. I am only assuming, but I think this might be the result of their better quality contract hops, and/or the ability of these breweries to force more out of the hops using different methods in the fermenter similar to what is outlined in the janish book.

My next batch will be back up to my previous 6lbs total per barrel, 60/40 dh to wp ratio and see if I can get that loud hop flavor and aroma back again.

My 2cts. There is definately such thing as overhopping.
Commercial brewers have less dry hop extraction efficiency due to the conical shape of their fermenters and higher volume's. One can't translate 6lbs per barrel (16oz per 5 gallons) straight to homebrew quantities. I don't know how much % difference there is but im guessing about 20% based on my experience with brewing small vs big.
I would love to see some science on this.

Also they can layer their hop additions, so they can dry hop and dump, repeat and extract in a few hours with hopguns. So use high loads with little contact time. If you throw in alot of hops at homebrew level you extract too much polyphenols.

Perhaps if you go above 12 to 16oz per 5 gallons with several dry hop charges with less then a few hours contact you would be able to emulate the big brewery process.
I can only see this done by people having the ability to dump the dry hops and yeast.
Has ayone with a conical fermenter tried this out?

 

[couchsending]

Thanks. For process, at higher loads, I could dial down amounts as I get closer to kegging/bottling and also cold crash. What else could I do? Love to have more dry hops, but don't want the astringency...

Cold crash and condition cold for an extended period of time or use a certain percentage of fining agents. Most Galaxy forward beers for example I’ll lager for a week or so in the low 30s before transferring to another keg to carbonate. If you’re adept at keeping O2 pickup to a minimum you won’t get any degradation in aroma or flavor but you do get a much smoother beer.

 

[couchsending]

TreeHouse talks about this quite a bit. I would love to get your take on how to alter your process for higher rates. I’ve never gone that high - frightens me a little

Tree House talks about altering the base beer to accommodate for both higher kettle and dry hop additions when it comes to the higher hopped versions of say Julius, Alter, Green, etc. I’ve actually wondered what exactly Nate is referring to when he says that.

 

[beervoid]

Tree House talks about altering the base beer to accommodate for both higher kettle and dry hop additions when it comes to the higher hopped versions of say Julius, Alter, Green, etc. I’ve actually wondered what exactly Nate is referring to when he says that.

Higher gravity beers can carry higher hopping loads. Are the hoppier versions of julius etc not higher abv as well?

Edit.
Just checked jjjuliusss its also 6.8%
Perhaps just higher og and fg.

 

[Dgallo]

My 2cts. There is definately such thing as overhopping.
Commercial brewers have less dry hop extraction efficiency due to the conical shape of their fermenters and higher volume's.

Where are you getting this info? It’s been proven that extraction has a direct correlation with suffice area, aka total liquid volume the hops are in contact with. That would mean the larger brewing volumes of a commercial brewery would provide them with increase extraction potential compared to homebrewers. So we would have to hop at higher rates to achieve the same extraction

 

[Loud Brewing]

My 2cts. There is definately such thing as overhopping.
Commercial brewers have less dry hop extraction efficiency due to the conical shape of their fermenters and higher volume's. One can't translate 6lbs per barrel (16oz per 5 gallons) straight to homebrew quantities. I don't know how much % difference there is but im guessing about 20% based on my experience with brewing small vs big.
I would love to see some science on this.

Also they can layer their hop additions, so they can dry hop and dump, repeat and extract in a few hours with hopguns. So use high loads with little contact time. If you throw in alot of hops at homebrew level you extract too much polyphenols.

Perhaps if you go above 12 to 16oz per 5 gallons with several dry hop charges with less then a few hours contact you would be able to emulate the big brewery process.
I can only see this done by people having the ability to dump the dry hops and yeast.
Has ayone with a conical fermenter tried this out?

I asked this exact question to professionals in regards to scaling total hop loads from 1bbl to 10gal and was told that I would most likely have to increase my total hop load a bit because of their ability to AlHop and or other techniques like pulsing c02 from the bottom of the conical (and their hops are just better than typical homebrew hops)

Effiency is crucial to them and I understand all of that on a commercial level, but with my first hand experience and my taste preferences, .5lbs total hops per 5gal batch is not nearly enough on the homebrew side of neipas.

 

[beervoid]

Where are you getting this info? It’s been proven that extraction has a direct correlation with suffice area, aka total liquid volume the hops are in contact with. That would mean the larger brewing volumes of a commercial brewery would provide them with increase extraction potential compared to homebrewers. So we would have to hop at higher rates to achieve the same extraction

I think it was Jamil who stated that because homebrew fermentation vessels have flat bottoms you have more surface area.
Also it's mentioned in Scott Janish's new book.

 

[beervoid]

I asked this exact question to professionals in regards to scaling total hop loads from 1bbl to 10gal and was told that I would most likely have to increase my total hop load a bit because of their ability to AlHop and or other techniques like pulsing c02 from the bottom of the conical (and their hops are just better than typical homebrew hops)

Effiency is crucial to them and I understand all of that on a commercial level, but with my first hand experience and my taste preferences, .5lbs total hops per 5gal batch is not nearly enough on the homebrew side of neipas.

I've had awsome results with as low as 6oz. Whenever I go above 10oz (which is on par with the 4lbs/bbl limit established by science) it doesn't really makes a difference.. higher then that and it becomes muddled hopburn mess.
If you are not getting the punch out of 8oz (0.5lbs) either your process or hop choice needs to be revisited.

 

[Dgallo]

I think it was Jamil who stated that because homebrew fermentation vessels have flat bottoms you have more surface area.
Also it's mentioned in Scott Janish's new book.

What page in the book, I don’t recall seeing that.

Homebrew or commercial FV can be conical or flat bottomed

 

[isomerization]

I think it was Jamil who stated that because homebrew fermentation vessels have flat bottoms you have more surface area.
Also it's mentioned in Scott Janish's new book.

Why would the bottom of the fermenter matter more than the top? Aren’t most hops hanging out in the surface of the liquid during the majority of dry hopping?

 

[isomerization]

I've had awsome results with as low as 6oz. Whenever I go above 10oz (which is on par with the 4lbs/bbl limit established by science) it doesn't really makes a difference.. higher then that and it becomes muddled hopburn mess.
If you are not getting the punch out of 8oz (0.5lbs) either your process or hop choice needs to be revisited.

Dry hop amount or total hop bill?

 

[Dgallo]

I've had awsome results with as low as 6oz. Whenever I go above 10oz (which is on par with the 4lbs/bbl limit established by science) it doesn't really makes a difference.. higher then that and it becomes muddled hopburn mess.
If you are not getting the punch out of 8oz (0.5lbs) either your process or hop choice needs to be revisited.

Could we also use the argument for you that if you’re getting a hoppy muddled mess of flavored over 8oz either your process or hop choice needs to be revised? Sorry don’t mean to pick at you. I’m sure the beer taste fine at 8oz. I just did a galaxy pale ale with 8 oz total and its great, but not in a the same league of aroma or flavor as my NEIPA where I’m aroun 12-14 oz

 

[beervoid]

Why would the bottom of the fermenter matter more than the top? Aren’t most hops hanging out in the surface of the liquid during the majority of dry hopping?

Im guessing the bottom flat surface area of a typical homebrew fv is larger then the conical big volume.

 

[beervoid]

Dry hop amount or total hop bill?

Thats with in 3 to 6oz in whirlpool and 6oz in dry hop. I use mostly citra and mosaic as a base to build on and the remaining 20% are different hop varieties. Usually a little cryo in there as well.

 

[beervoid]

Could we also use the argument for you that if you’re getting a hoppy muddled mess of flavored over 8oz either your process or hop choice needs to be revised? Sorry don’t mean to pick at you. I’m sure the beer taste fine at 8oz. I just did a galaxy pale ale with 8 oz total and its great, but not in a the same league of aroma or flavor as my NEIPA where I’m aroun 12-14 oz

Possible yes. Honestly I've only went that high 3 times and all 3 times I wasnt happy with the result.

The hops come out much brighter imho in lower amounts. It might also be a matter of taste. I'm not so keen on the green hopburn raw hop flavor.
Also my neipas are drinkable in just a few days post kegging.

My process has definately improved with time as well and im slowly ramping up dry hops amounts again with the new process. Currently got 8oz +1oz cryo carbonating.

When you go that high what does your dry hop schedule look like?
How much oats? And how long conditioning to make it drinkable?

 

[isomerization]

Im guessing the bottom flat surface area of a typical homebrew fv is larger then the conical big volume.

I think you misunderstood, what does this have to do with dry hop extraction?

 

[beervoid]

I think you misunderstood, what does this have to do with dry hop extraction?

Larger surface area contact to volume ratio of the dry hops with beer.

Its stated under is layering the key in this article.
https://byo.com/article/advanced-dry-hopping-techniques/

 

[isomerization]

Larger surface area contact to volume ratio of the dry hops with beer.

Its stated under is layering the key in this article.
https://byo.com/article/advanced-dry-hopping-techniques/

Interesting, in my experiences the hops don’t sink within the first 2-3 days and then I cold crash. Hop oil extraction is complete by then, so I don’t really see how hop sludge at the bottom plays into this?

I wonder if commercial scale sees a different experience?

 

[leesmith]

I think you misunderstood, what does this have to do with dry hop extraction?

If the hops settle into the cone of the conical before they have given up all their flavor then there is less contact area for extraction because the hops are bunched up in the cone.

That’s why some breweries bubble co2 through them in order to rouse them.

Just my guess.

 

[beervoid]

I think you misunderstood, what does this have to do with dry hop extraction?

This is from the article quote from Jamil.

"The main reason is that we're dry hopping into cylindroconical fermenters. The bottom is a narrow cone, which means that when the hops drop to the bottom, it results in a smaller surface area." He said not to worry about layering in dry hops on a small scale. Peter Wolfe also weighed in on the topic saying especially if a homebrewer is using a flat bottomed fermenter, there is little reason to layer in your hops, the surface area to volume ratio is much greater on a homebrew scale.”

Interesting, in my experiences the hops don’t sink within the first 2-3 days and then I cold crash. Hop oil extraction is complete by then, so I don’t really see how hop sludge at the bottom plays into this?

I wonder if commercial scale sees a different experience?

Much more pressure in the big tanks so maybe?

 

[Dgallo]

Theoretically it makes sense but I don’t believe the hops sink fast enough for the impact to happen. Maybe when DH during fermentation but not afterwards. The newest extraction data to come out shows that 90 percent of all hop compounds are extracted in the first 24 without agitation. We’ve all dryhopped, have you ever seen your dryhops sink in less than a day? I can’t even tell you the last time they dropped out in less than 2 or 3 days

 

[leesmith]

Are you saying it’s not good?

Why did I think it was bad or not a good example?

It was one note:
Mouthfeel, flavor....

Such an odd thing some of these new IPAs. There are no dynamics to the flavors and the way they play out on the palate. The same flavor front to back, side to side with no bitterness is an odd experience.

Sloop has made some good beers.
And this was drinkable.
But if I owned a brewery and was know for hoppy beers...I’d tuck this recipe back into my notebook for the time being.


And to the conical...dry hop time...extraction conversation.

You have to remember Jamil is a little old school in his dry hopping technique. As he was becoming known and gaining praise...it was common to dry hop for a week or even more.

I’m not supporting or refuting any of Beervoids comments. Just explaining that’s where it’s coming from.

 

[beervoid]

Why did I think it was bad or not a good example?
You have to remember Jamil is a little old school in his dry hopping technique. As he was becoming known and gaining praise...it was common to dry hop for a week or even more.

I’m not supporting or refuting any of Beervoids comments. Just explaining that’s where it’s coming from.

In the article it's is not only Jamil stating this. Peter Wolfe is also backing it. And Wolfe is again quoted in Janish's book.

On page 115.
"The size of a dry hopping vessel might also play a role in the
extraction rates. For example, Peter Wolfe suggested in an
online Q&A session that as the tank size increases, dry hop
extraction efficiency decreases. Potentially, you would need
more hops when brewing on a larger scale to get the same
results as you would on the homebrew scale."

 

[isomerization]

In the article it's is not only Jamil stating this. Peter Wolfe is also backing it. And Wolfe is again quoted in Janish's book.

On page 115.
"The size of a dry hopping vessel might also play a role in the
extraction rates. For example, Peter Wolfe suggested in an
online Q&A session that as the tank size increases, dry hop
extraction efficiency decreases. Potentially, you would need
more hops when brewing on a larger scale to get the same
results as you would on the homebrew scale."

I’m not super familiar with commercial ferm tanks, but don’t larger ones just get taller? If so, the surface area where the hops float would stay roughly the same. Thus more hops needed for increased volumes. Just a theory, but I’m with @Dgallo on this one regarding Jamil’s comments.

 

[SanPancho]

it all depends on aspect ratio of vessel. Narrower means more hops are “floating” under the water line, making them more likely to sink. Wider means more on surface where they can hang out.

And a crazy thick krauzen seems to help keep them floating and not sinking too.

The other variable is trapping the sunken hops in trub and yeast, which doesn’t happen if you can do dumps. Then you just pop em up with co2.

 

[Dgallo]

Why did I think it was bad or not a good example?

It was one note:
Mouthfeel, flavor....

Such an odd thing some of these new IPAs. There are no dynamics to the flavors and the way they play out on the palate. The same flavor front to back, side to side with no bitterness is an odd experience.

Sloop has made some good beers.
And this was drinkable.
But if I owned a brewery and was know for hoppy beers...I’d tuck this recipe back into my notebook for the time being.

I get what your saying there. I’ve noticed that when beers only have the common fruit forward hops that it just becomes one dimensional. Idk if you’ve ever had Pile of Crowns by LIC But that was prob the best ipa I’ve ever had. The beer took you on a trip of dankness upfront to pineapple with a crisp just enough resin bitterness to finish

 

[kevink]

it all depends on aspect ratio of vessel.

I was just going to say this. I don't buy size being a factor, but configuration may. Even the quote above states that size "might" play a role. It's not very convincing.

 

[leesmith]

In the article it's is not only Jamil stating this. Peter Wolfe is also backing it. And Wolfe is again quoted in Janish's book.

On page 115.
"The size of a dry hopping vessel might also play a role in the
extraction rates. For example, Peter Wolfe suggested in an
online Q&A session that as the tank size increases, dry hop
extraction efficiency decreases. Potentially, you would need
more hops when brewing on a larger scale to get the same
results as you would on the homebrew scale."

Thank you for the clarification.

 

[leesmith]

I get what your saying there. I’ve noticed that when beers only have the commen fruit forward hops that it just becomes one dimensional. Idk if you’ve ever had Pile of Crowns by LIC But that was prob the best ipa I’ve ever had. The beer took you on a trip of dankness upfront to pineapple with a crisp just enough resin bitterness to finish

I also think brewers are trying soo hard to not produce a beer flavored IPA that they leave nothing that can be dynamic. Take away the bitterness...take away the malt....then well it’s just a Capri Sun with alcohol and bubbles in it.

I have not had Pile of Crowns.

But wish they would put the original version of Modern Aberration back out.

Emailed them once about that beer but never heard back. It was brewed with Brett...and just fantastic...

 

[SRJHops]

Theoretically it makes sense but I don’t believe the hops sink fast enough for the impact to happen. Maybe when DH during fermentation but not afterwards. The newest extraction data to come out shows that 90 percent of all hop compounds are extracted in the first 24 without agitation. We’ve all dryhopped, have you ever seen your dryhops sink in less than a day? I can’t even tell you the last time they dropped out in less than 2 or 3 days

Indeed. Seems to take a while for them to settle to the bottom. In fact, the darn cryo hops I used in the last batch are STILL floating at the top of some of my bottles after 6 weeks! Last time I ever use cryo in the dry hop!

 

[kevink]

I'm about to use Imperial A24 Dry Hop for the first time and I'm wondering how it compares to 1318 from an attenuation perspective. Is it more attenuative, less, or about the same? If it's different, by how much?

 

[stickyfinger]

Definitely more attenuative than 1318, especially since it can degrade starches to fermentable sugars on its own.

I'm about to use Imperial A24 Dry Hop for the first time and I'm wondering how it compares to 1318 from an attenuation perspective. Is it more attenuative, less, or about the same? If it's different, by how much?

 

[Dgallo]

I'm about to use Imperial A24 Dry Hop for the first time and I'm wondering how it compares to 1318 from an attenuation perspective. Is it more attenuative, less, or about the same? If it's different, by how much?

About the same 3% difference.. 156 mash getting a 1.064 og I’ll get 1.016. Same as I would with London III. A24 is a blend so you need to drive the temp to get all the esters 68-74/75 over the course of the first 4 days.

 

[isomerization]

I personally get about 5% more attenuation out of A24 than 1318 (under similar grist/mash conditions).

Do we know how active the STA1 gene is in the Sacc trois strain? @suregork have you tested that strain?

 

[kevink]

About the same 3% difference..

Thanks. 3% more out of A24?

 

[Dgallo]

Thanks. 3% more out of A24?

Yeah. I underpitch it. It looks like a few people get better attenuation than I do. Could be the drive I use and the underpitching as to why I don’t see as much as others