No good beer since I switched to RO water!

[Uhthoff]

I moved about a year and a half ago. I had always used tap water to brew but my new house has unusable crazy hard water. So I made the switch to RO about a year ago. Since that time I just can't seem to get things dialed in. I just brewed an IPA and and APA. The IPA is dry hopped and the APA has a decent amount of hops, yet the flavours aren't coming through.

I BIAB 10 gallon batches. I mash around 1.25 quarts to pound like a traditional mash tun method. Then I dunk sparge with remaining water and top up to boil water level. I use Gordon Strong's method to try and hit the right ph. So I treat all water with 1/4 tsp phosphoric acid and I add 2 tsp CaCl to the mash (for a 10 gal batch). I only mash the base grains for the full time and then add roasted and crystals for the last 15 min. I boil, ferment and keg.

The thing is, these are tested recipes that I have used in the past and now just don't come out well. Is my water too soft? Should I be adding some gypsum in the mash to bring out more hop flavour?

Any suggestions would be appreciated!

 

[jekeane]

If you were just using calcium chloride and ro water you're basically targeting a light malty beer. Which would impact a hoppy beer pretty significantly.

Download brun water and spend a night looking at it. If you are using RO exclusively it is super simple and accurate.

 

[Revvy]

If you were just using calcium chloride and ro water you're basically targeting a light malty beer. Which would impact a hoppy beer pretty significantly.

Download brun water and spend a night looking at it. If you are using RO exclusively it is super simple and accurate.

Yeah... if you're not brewing extract and using RO water, than you can't just add the same basic compounds to all beers across the board... you're going to have to tailor the water chemistry to the styles and the grainbills.

Like he said, you'll need some water software to dial it in.

 

[mabrungard]

While I value Gordon's palate, he knows incredibly little about brewing water chemistry and he purposely avoids learning anything more than AJ's simple methods. The bottom line is that the method doesn't work for all styles.

Without significant sulfate in the water, an IPA or APA is likely to be underwhelming. The only question you have to answer is what sulfate level suits your tastes.

 

[65C]

I'm in a super hard water area - I've started using 7.5ML lactic in first 13L to get me down to 5.2 - I can't tell you results yet as the first (of 3) is still in primary

I've started looking at Black IPAs too - I've got a couple on the go at moment - to see if those dark grains help

it's probably going to be a few months of experiment - but I'm going to try everything to work with current water before I start RO

 

[Mirilis]

I moved about a year and a half ago. I had always used tap water to brew but my new house has unusable crazy hard water. So I made the switch to RO about a year ago. Since that time I just can't seem to get things dialed in. I just brewed an IPA and and APA. The IPA is dry hopped and the APA has a decent amount of hops, yet the flavours aren't coming through.

I BIAB 10 gallon batches. I mash around 1.25 quarts to pound like a traditional mash tun method. Then I dunk sparge with remaining water and top up to boil water level. I use Gordon Strong's method to try and hit the right ph. So I treat all water with 1/4 tsp phosphoric acid and I add 2 tsp CaCl to the mash (for a 10 gal batch). I only mash the base grains for the full time and then add roasted and crystals for the last 15 min. I boil, ferment and keg.

The thing is, these are tested recipes that I have used in the past and now just don't come out well. Is my water too soft? Should I be adding some gypsum in the mash to bring out more hop flavor?

Any suggestions would be appreciated!

How are you checking your mash pH? Since you add a bunch of water after the mash as well you will also need a pH check pre boil as well to make sure nothing was thrown off.

I would start with a traditional IPA water recipe (theres lots of info on HBT) and then tweak the SO4 till its at your liking.

 

[GoeHaarden]

Without significant sulfate in the water, an IPA or APA is likely to be underwhelming. The only question you have to answer is what sulfate level suits your tastes.

This is incredibly true. I have lost some APAs to overwhelming maltiness, and almost all hop characteristics were absent with a low sulfate water profile.

 

[Schreiner]

I concur with the others that the sulfate to chloride ratio needs to be appropriate for the style.

Can one add gypsum to a beer post fermentation and still tease out more hop character?

 

[Uhthoff]

Thanks for all of the replies. I think using some software will be my next step. I have hesitated to do so because I know (and understand) very little about water chemistry for brewing.

 

[doug293cz]

Thanks for all of the replies. I think using some software will be my next step. I have hesitated to do so because I know (and understand) very little about water chemistry for brewing.

You don't really need to understand the chemistry to use the water adjustment software. Just make adjustments until you get within a good range for calcium, chloride, sulfate and pH. The software should give you some targets for each based on beer style (I know BrunWater does, haven't used others.)

Brew on

 

[mbobhat]

the only question you have to answer is what sulfate level suits your tastes.

 

[PTYstefan]

How are you checking your mash pH? Since you add a bunch of water after the mash as well you will also need a pH check pre boil as well to make sure nothing was thrown off.

I would start with a traditional IPA water recipe (theres lots of info on HBT) and then tweak the SO4 till its at your liking.

Sorry to bugger in, I have water that is mostly at ph7, I read a good mash ph is around 5.2 as you mentioned.
Would this mean that the splash water needs to be at 5.2 also?

 

[PTYstefan]

Sorry but does the splash water also has to be at 5.2ph? I am working with ph7 water here...

 

[Yooper]

Sorry to bugger in, I have water that is mostly at ph7, I read a good mash ph is around 5.2 as you mentioned.
Would this mean that the splash water needs to be at 5.2 also?

Water pH doesn't really matter to mash pH- that is mostly due to the alkalinity of the water and the buffering of it. Grains are acidic. The mash pH should be between 5.3-5.5, once the water and grains are mixed together.

Your sparge water should be be low a pH of 6, if you fly (continuous) sparge. It could be a bit higher if you batch sparge, under most conditions.

 

[doug293cz]

Sorry to bugger in, I have water that is mostly at ph7, I read a good mash ph is around 5.2 as you mentioned.
Would this mean that the splash water needs to be at 5.2 also?

Sorry but does the splash water also has to be at 5.2ph? I am working with ph7 water here...

Optimal mash pH (after cooling sample to room temp) is 5.4 to 5.6. Ok range is about 5.2 to 5.7 (ref.) However, pH of the strike water has almost no effect on mash pH. What does affect mash pH is the alkalinity of the strike water. Alkalinity is usually primarily determined by the amount of bicarbonate ion in the water. Malts are acidic and tend to lower the pH of the mash. The higher the alkalinity of the water, the more difficult it is for the malts to lower the pH into the correct range. Dark malts are more acid than light malts, so are more effective at lowering the mash pH. In many cases additional acid needs to be added to neutralize the alkalinity of the strike water. So getting correct mash pH is a balancing act between the alkalinity of the starting water and the combined acidity of the various malts in the grain bill. Doing the calculations by hand requires significant chemistry knowledge, and is tedious. This is why using water chemistry software is so useful. It has the required chemistry knowledge built in, so you don't have to know the chemistry yourself. All you have to know is how to provide the correct inputs for the software.

If by "splash" water you mean sparge water, then no, it does not need to be acidified to the mash pH. The mash is (should be) done when you get to the sparge step, so all you need to worry about is keeping the pH in the grain bed during the sparge below about 6 to avoid tannin extraction. If you add just enough acid to the sparge water to bring the pH down to about 5.8, then you shouldn't have any tannin extraction issues (unless you severely over sparge.)

Edit: Beat to the punch 'cause I tend to be so long winded.

Brew on

 

[Chanoc]

Sorry i'm late.
Could you not try half hard water and half RO on a small batch and see if it improves?

 

[PTYstefan]

Thank you @yooper
Thank you @doug293cz
I have not brewed yet, but my greed for knowledge is high.

That answered a question that o was looking an answer to.

Thank you.

 

[mongoose33]

Sorry i'm late.
Could you not try half hard water and half RO on a small batch and see if it improves?

Depending on what kind of beer you're trying to brew, it might work out ok.

I have very hard water. The rule of thumb here is I could brew dark beers with about a 3:1 ratio of tap water to RO water, less dark beers at about 2:1, lighter beers at about 1:3 or so.

That's from a local guy who's been brewing for 22+ years. I didn't want to just throw stuff together to see what I'd get, so I typically include a gallon of my tap water and the rest is RO water--then I add salts to bring it to the water composition I want.

**************

Here's something that helped me understand the role of water in brewing. If you look at Doug's post above about how alkalinity of water is offset by the acidity of malts, and that the darker the malt, the more acid, you can see why:

Stouts--very dark beers brewed with dark malt--originated in the London area. Why? Their water was very alkaline and only the dark malt and its acidity could bring the mash pH down to where it needed to be. In other words, the water determined what beer could be brewed well, and it was dark.

Pilsners--very light beers with light malts--originated where water was very soft, i.e., not much alkalinity by comparison to English water. Thus that water was suitable only for lighter beers, and beers dominated by dark malt would not work.

That was my "Aha" moment. The water calculators like Brunwater can help you determine what the water needs to be based on the kinds of malts you're using.

 

[Lefou]

Light SRM beers favor "soft" water. Pale and darker beers favor some hardness. It's a good, fast rule to remember. I always decide what beer I want first, then adjust the mash water using salts.
This was learned the hard way when my "soft", low calcium, low carbonate filtered tap water was used to Frankenbrew a noob's extract Dunkel with Carafa. I ended up with an acidic, flat beer that tasted more like smoky balsamic vinegar than any German dark I'd ever tasted. After that fiasco, I swore off brewing dark beers until I learned more.

...then I found this forum and Chris Colby's blog.
I have an in-ground pool and once I figured out the basic relationship water chemistry has with pool maintenance and mash water, a light went on in my head. Holy crap, I said ...if I can balance 42,000 gallons of pool water, why the hell can't I make 5 gallons of beer?

 

[Braufessor]

All of the advice to use B'run water is right on target. It is essential if you want to consistently get water appropriate to various styles. You cannot just apply a "one size fits all" approach to every style. B'run water gives the appearance of being more complicated than it actually is. The instructions are clear, and once you get going on it, it is easy to understand and use.

In the mean time, if you are just looking for a simple fix to your hoppy beers like IPA's and Pale Ales...... just tweak what you have been doing a bit.
*Add all your grains to the mash - Don't Hold the crystal/caramel malts out (should not be that much anyway in an IPA.
*Go ahead and add the phosphoric
*Add 2 tsp of Gypsum and 1 tsp of CaCl

That should get you something in the ball park that is more appropriate to a hoppy beer - other beers would require different approaches.

What you are currently doing would be a nice approach for a Pilsner, or Helles, or Blonde ale ..... or things like a brown ale, porter, maybe..

***Also - what % is your phosphoric acid..... not all phosphoric is the same %, so "1/4 tsp" is not always created equal. I assume you it is 10%.... that seems to be the most common.

 

[Uhthoff]

10% is what I'm using, 1/4 tsp per 5 gallons of water.

So I've read about the effects of gypsum on flavour, primarily that it will bring out more hops. What affect specifically does the Cacl have on flavour?

When you suggest using 2tsp gypsum and 1 tsp Cacl, is that based on a 5 gallon batch? I do 10 gallon batches so in that case 4 tsp and 2 tsp?

 

[Braufessor]

10% is what I'm using, 1/4 tsp per 5 gallons of water.

So I've read about the effects of gypsum on flavour, primarily that it will bring out more hops. What affect specifically does the Cacl have on flavour?

When you suggest using 2tsp gypsum and 1 tsp Cacl, is that based on a 5 gallon batch? I do 10 gallon batches so in that case 4 tsp and 2 tsp?

Do 2 tsp gypsum and 1 tsp CaCl per 10 gallons of RO water.... at least to start with.
That is not the ideal solution. The best solution is to get accustomed to Brun Water or other calculator. But, that will get you in the ball park.

Gypsum does not make a beer "hoppy." What it does is that it dries the beer out a bit and allows whatever hops are present to "pop" a little bit more.

In theory, CaCl, tends to "mute" or "round" flavors like hops out.

Gypsum will help produce a beer that is a bit more dry, crisp, assertive..... and that, can let the hops that are present "shine" a bit more.

 

[dschiller]

+1 for using Brun Water. It's excellent and easy to use.