I fail to see why one would want or need the still dragon on an HLT?
When at temp, just shut it off?
New To Electric. Why wouldn't this work?
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I fail to see why one would want or need the still dragon on an HLT?
When at temp, just shut it off?
iijakii
Well-Known Member
He's saying you can size your elements for the batch size if you want - don't have to go only 5500W. There's 2000,2500,3000,3500,4500 etc and plenty in between options available.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
One thing thats not been mentioned is it will likely take an hour or 2 longer to brew this way.
Its kind of like cooking on a fire meaning you really have to watch things close.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
If your watching it like a hawk and know just when to do so then yeah... Otherwise with no control it could easily go well over your desired temp and you cant hold it at the same temp without heat control. I dont know how you do it but I get my sparge water to temp and hold it there until Im ready to use it..
It would work either way but having control does make it easier. Do you cook on a stove with a really small heat source and no heat control? Would you rather do that? I realize thats all youve done with electric brewing (at least I believe so from your past comments) but is it possible you just dont realize what your missing?
I disagree completely....15 minutes maybe. With this reasoning I could brew beer in 20 minutes if I upgraded to a 5500w element lol
Since when are accurate HLT temps all that important? Yes, I realize exactly what I'm missing, and really could care less if I'm batch sparging with 165 or 175 degree water....hell maybe I'll just start cold sparging as that would be simpler without an HLT....I try not to obsess.
Have you ever tried it, or are you making ass umptions?
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
How so? So is 3000w with 6 gallons is only 15 minutes faster than say 5500w?
In reality it takes over 30 minutes longer for the 3000w to take 6 gallons from 65 degrees to boiling alone. if your ground water is cold you wait longer. and you boil longer to get the desired boiloff rate. This can add up to an hour easily.. More with 1500 or 2000w.
heres a calculator..
http://brewmastercontrols.com/index.php/electric-heat
I'm comparing 3800-4000w vs 4500, not a big deal IMO.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
No need to resort to name calling here... Really? No, I havent but I have to think the science and math doesnt lie here. Sparge temps may not be critical but strike water temps do matter.
Taking this all as some sort of attack against you for some reason? I dont get it.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
But you use 2 1500w elements. and I was responding to you "Then I could" comment So yeah you could easily save an hour yourself.
Although I do want a pretty bare bones set up I do want some rudimentary control over the power level of the element so although it might be possible to size the element to my system I dont think it is the best option for me.
As suggested before I may just use one still Dragon kit and plug/unplug between the two of them. That seems to be the simplest option. I just need to figure out what I need to ask my electrician to set up. With just a 240 source would they also be able to put in a regular outlet so I could plug in a chugger pump and other accessories or would they have to run a 120 line?
As suggested before I may just use one still Dragon kit and plug/unplug between the two of them. That seems to be the simplest option. I just need to figure out what I need to ask my electrician to set up. With just a 240 source would they also be able to put in a regular outlet so I could plug in a chugger pump and other accessories or would they have to run a 120 line?
My apologies, lame attempt to be humerous.
No, 2 @ 2000w, 4000w total
dyqik
Well-Known Member
That's definitely a good way to start. Then you can easily build a standalone HLT controller (PID or manual) later if you want to, without wasting investment. I kind of like the idea of separate controls for each component anyway, at least until I've understood how I brew in the space.
I think to tap off a 120V line they would probably have to install a subpanel so that the 120V line is on a 15A/20A breaker, so that's probably a fairly big investment. That may depend on the local code though. It'll probably be cheaper for to run a separate circuit to the garage for the 120V outlet, depending on your house construction, etc.
A 120V line is definitely good to have, even if it's just to run a laptop to take notes/watch TV/listen to music on while brewing! But you'll probably end up using a 120V outlet for pumps, ventilation fans, etc. anyway.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
Fair enough.. With 4000w the time difference is very small... But the boil is pretty crazy with 6 gallons (at least you can turn off one of your elements which I'm guessing you are doing from time to time while leaving the other on. Someones with 1 240v element doesnt have the same options. plus your 4000w worth of elements is likely closer to 3500w in real output.
I recently did the math myself when debating on going to 5500w because my 4500w element is really only putting out 4026w... if I assume the 5500w element puts out say 5200w optimistically its not a huge deal in time but element power varies from element to element and that has some effect as well as many other criteria on different peoples experience.
I feel like we had this discussion before?
FuzzeWuzze
I Love DIY
Well an accurate HLT is the entire premise behind a functioning HERMS system...so there's that.
The entire premise of this thread is the OP is looking to replace a basic manual propane rig and switch to an inexpensive very simple e-brewing system, NOT build a HERMS system...so there's that...cheers!
mcgimpkins
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Yeah, you and/or an electrician can wire a 120 pump connection into a 240 source. In addition, from personal experience, having an on off switch on your pump electricity a lot more convenient than plugging and unplugging the thing.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
Depending on how its wired though It will cause the gfci to pop ... Ive learned this from experience...
dyqik
Well-Known Member
It shouldn't do with a proper 240V GFCI, as long as the 120V return is down the 240V neutral. It's only if you try and do that on the end of a 2 hot and 1 ground 240V wire, with the ground acting as the neutral that it will cause problems.
Any professional electrician that wires up a 240V circuit like that will likely be reporting for reeducation in order to regain his licence. I imagine that looks a bit like the end of A Clockwork Orange, but with pages of the NEC replacing the film...
Probably not worth concerning the OP with, IMO. He does have to trust that he's got a vaguely competent electrician.
BowAholic
Well-Known Member
Just a quick question... I have seen this 30 amp switch suggested many times and have almost bought it, but is the 30 amp rating at 240 volts or at 120 volts... ???
mcgimpkins
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I haven't had that fun-filled experience, but it is good to know it looks like they talked about it here: GFCI for a mixed 120 / 240 box
In addition this website: http://www.spadepot.com/spacyclopedia/wiring-hot-tub-spa.htm has a diagram for wiring up a 3 wire (no neutral) and 4 wire spa panels.
BadWolfBrewing
Well-Known Member
They are sort of independent of each other. It has to be able to break/block X amount of volts safely, and it has to be able to conduct Y amount of amps safely.
I.e., it works for 240V/30a. I'd be it works for high current as well, but don't test it.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
Im not sure why I had the issue then.. I do use a separate ground wire than my neutral and the two are only connected at the main box downstairs so...It shouldn't do with a proper 240V GFCI, as long as the 120V return is down the 240V neutral. It's only if you try and do that on the end of a 2 hot and 1 ground 240V wire, with the ground acting as the neutral that it will cause problems.
Any professional electrician that wires up a 240V circuit like that will likely be reporting for reeducation in order to regain his licence. I imagine that looks a bit like the end of A Clockwork Orange, but with pages of the NEC replacing the film...
Probably not worth concerning the OP with, IMO. He does have to trust that he's got a vaguely competent electrician.
dandanbeer
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Just follow the diagram at this link
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=382286
scroll down to 30A 5500W single element PID. the wiring isn't too hard.
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BowAholic
Well-Known Member
thanks...i'll pick one up then. I just wasn't sure since I see things like this listed on switches "Power: 15A 250VAC / 20A 125VAC"
Below are the specs on the Leviton 3032 series of switches from the Leviton website.
Not sure why there are two different current maximums listed, however a 5500W element draws at most 5500/240 = 23A.
Brew on
Thanks Doug,
I bet a 5500w element would pair nicely with my 24 gallon kettle for 15 gallon batches
Cheers
I bet a 5500w element would pair nicely with my 24 gallon kettle for 15 gallon batches
Cheers
Below are the specs on the Leviton 3032 series of switches from the Leviton website.
View attachment 338183
Not sure why there are two different current maximums listed, however a 5500W element draws at most 5500/240 = 23A.
Brew on
I scratched my head too, and I work for Leviton.... Consulting the datasheet, 24A max is for a 2HP max load. i.e. if you have a 2HP load, it shouldn't draw more than 24A. It's got to do with the inductance of motors and inrush and all that. Relays are rated the same way. Different current maximums based on what your load is.
I think the 30A rating means you can get away with 30A loads of resistive circuits like heating elements.
BowAholic
Well-Known Member
thanks to all...
BadWolfBrewing
Well-Known Member
Right, many inductive loads (like motors) will have a large inrush current due to the starter capacitor. Resistive loads are better behaved.
Beernip
Well-Known Member
The still dragon controllers are great but just remember that they don't come with plugs on either end. If you're connecting two L6-30 connectors that's another $50 per controller. Still much cheaper then commercial though.Thank you all for your input I really appreciate all the great info. Right now I am leaning towards buying 2 still Dragon controller boxes one for my hlt and one for my brew kettle. With the instructions that come with those do you guys think a novice could throw them together?
I currently have a 240 electrical line that used to go to my electric range that was cut and taped when I upgraded to a gas stove. I am hoping to have that line extended into my garage and have an outlet put in for the 240 source by an electrician. Would the electrician also be the one to put in the spa panel and is that still necessary if I were running off of the 2 still Dragon controllers?
Lastly would I be able to plug both controllers in at the same time with just one 240 outlet/run at the same time? What type of outlet would I need to do that or would I have to have two 240 supplies?
Thanks again have another
Most likely you'd need two circuits but how many amps is your 240v circuit?
Beernip
Well-Known Member
My boss is an electrician and said you are only supposed to run a sustained load of 80% of the max load on a circuit. So 80% of a 30amp circuit is 24amps. A sustained load of 28amps on 30amp circuit would likely trip the breaker often. The motor startup load will spike well beyond the 24amps running load so don't want to blow the circuit.
Continuous load refers to over three hours which does not apply to brewing setups typically.
And the concern is not for tripping the breaker, it is for the cable heating up. If you oversized the cabling you can run at 100% load ad infinitum and the breaker will not trip. It takes a combination of an over current condition and time to trip a breaker.
And the concern is not for tripping the breaker, it is for the cable heating up. If you oversized the cabling you can run at 100% load ad infinitum and the breaker will not trip. It takes a combination of an over current condition and time to trip a breaker.
dyqik
Well-Known Member
This really needs to be put in a clearly visible sticky thread, along with the questions about unloaded SSRs "not switching", and SSVRs always showing 240V at their output.
It seems that every thread where someone mentions running a 25A element on a 30A circuit, someone has to wrongly bring up the continuous load rating factor.
In my experience, slowly upgrading over time has ended up costing more money than jumping into the electric all grain system that I have now. As I upgraded, equipment I already had became obsolete. I'm sure I could have done it differently so that I wouldn't have wound up with obsolete equipment but I would have been better off going straight to all-grain from the beginning.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
No need for that. As linked earlier Its $22 to purchase the standard 30Adryer cord with plug to match the plugs most commonly found in a home. http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-4-Prong-30-Amp-Dryer Cord-WX9X20GDS/202214666... Whats the actual benefit of more expensive connectors here? is a twist locking outlet really necessary? Its not in my brew panel application. It takes a lot of effort to unplug the dryer style plug. still they can be bought for under $20 too... http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...I93-aVhxDF0SlOiplIF4SRDXBOtqU2PjvwaAqyV8P8HAQ and for the receptical http://www.atielectrical.com/2620-l...hthwxM861lzFXMYQnewlZHwOzycHF35d2saAh6M8P8HAQ
The other cord to the element depends on whether you choose the 4500w which is under 20A or the 5500w which draws 22 amps and requires a 25a or higher rated outlet... again there are options for as little as $6 for this. Ive used 25a rated aviation connectors most recently which securely screw on at the panel and are even watertight.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
as mentioned this is only if you were boiling at full power for over 3 hrs which would never come close to happening. Its amazing how many electricians misinterpret this rule. A motor startup load is very short... I dont see any issues here...I put a sustained load which I believed to be about 28a according to my built in meter on my system before (30 mins or so) with no breaker issues on my 30a breaker. 5500w elements realistically draw around 21-22 amps at 100% usually as they usually put out less than their max power rating. I believe a chugger or march pump draws like 1.2 amps. The truth is many run thier control panel, element and a pump at the same time off 30a circuits with no problems.
dyqik
Well-Known Member
One thing to avoid this is to have a good idea of what you are heading towards, even if you can't there just yet, and to buy components that will be reused in the future, and to go cheap on things that can't be reused. For something like a control panel, SSVRs, contactors, PID units, etc. are all reusable in a new panel, so you aren't losing the component costs when you reconfigure the control panel. You should probably go with a fairly cheap enclosure though. Expensive items like GFCI breakers, power connectors and cables are all unlikely to need replacement as well. And then there's the secondhand market if you really can't reuse something.
I do think it's best to get a single electric boil kettle going first, with a simple SSVR control (or maybe manual mode PID and SSR control), for heating strike water, sparge water and then boiling, and using coolers or even just a bottling bucket for transferring hot water around. It's possible to extract brew or all-grain 3 vessel brew with just one heated kettle. If you do mess up something on the boil kettle and buy a component that doesn't work out quite right, it's likely you can transfer weldless fittings, elements, etc. over to a HLT when/if you come to build one. If you decide to go bigger, then there's a pretty good chance the boil kettle will work OK as the HLT on the next size system up (e.g. a 8-9 gal kettle is OK for boiling 5 gal batches, and OK as a HLT for a 3 vessel 10 gal system).
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
I had a small budget when I pieced my system together.... I used the cheap $38 12x12x8 home depot plastic electrical box for my enclosure. When I decided to change and add stuff I only needed to replace the front panel... But instead of buying another whole enclosure I went cheap and used a piece of hardboard I had laying around and painted it... The result which was a sub $300 kal type panel with power and speed control for 3 DC pumps and a rims. a lot of my journey is documented in my thread below in my signature.
I also upgraded all my kettles and such over time , not because I had to but more because the cosmetics bug got me and I got tired of looking at the mismatched cooler, keggle, kettle setup...(I also wanted a bigger MT and BK when I realized its just as much work to make 11 gallons as it is 6) I used weldless fittings so I saved a lot of money not only once but twice since all I had to do was use an $18 drill bit set from harbor freight to drill holes and move things over from one set to the next and move them around as I saw fit... Function still comes over form in my eyes so I need versatility as I improve things.
The only waste I really have had was an old front panel cover , my old cooler and keggle, kettle and 12v dc pumps I replaced with better 24V versions... I also have many small cheap cartridge heaters from a couple different rims setups I experimented with while trying to improve step mashing times... Much of my old stuff can be sold and reused especially if I ever turn a friend onto brewing.. I was able to give my old immersion chiller away to someone who needed it and I kept my corona mill in case I need a backup when mine eventually fails.
The "upgrades" in manual to pid electric arent for everyone...Ive seen people abandon it all for a simple BIAB setup with minimal control. It all makes the same quality beer just maybe not as consistently.
I also upgraded all my kettles and such over time , not because I had to but more because the cosmetics bug got me and I got tired of looking at the mismatched cooler, keggle, kettle setup...(I also wanted a bigger MT and BK when I realized its just as much work to make 11 gallons as it is 6) I used weldless fittings so I saved a lot of money not only once but twice since all I had to do was use an $18 drill bit set from harbor freight to drill holes and move things over from one set to the next and move them around as I saw fit... Function still comes over form in my eyes so I need versatility as I improve things.
The only waste I really have had was an old front panel cover , my old cooler and keggle, kettle and 12v dc pumps I replaced with better 24V versions... I also have many small cheap cartridge heaters from a couple different rims setups I experimented with while trying to improve step mashing times... Much of my old stuff can be sold and reused especially if I ever turn a friend onto brewing.. I was able to give my old immersion chiller away to someone who needed it and I kept my corona mill in case I need a backup when mine eventually fails.
The "upgrades" in manual to pid electric arent for everyone...Ive seen people abandon it all for a simple BIAB setup with minimal control. It all makes the same quality beer just maybe not as consistently.
AF1HomeBrew
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The bug gets us all... I recently parted with my Blichmann kettles and purchased the new Spike Brewing kettles with custom TC ports... my setup looks like a mini-brewery with the TC and SS tubing from Still Dragon... and the brains of the BCS controller... The only thing missing is Laverne and Shirley..
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