New, Looking for an A-Okay before I put down $$$

[BeeDeeEff]

Hello, I've dipped my toe into fermenting/brewing in the past, but always as a helper to a friend...this will be the first time I'll be wading in on my own.

Looking to see if the plan I have buzzing around my head sounds reasonable or if I've fallen into any obvious new-guy traps.

My goal is a carbonated cider, slightly sweet to bottle. In my mind that means something about as or slightly less sweet than store-bought WoodChuck:Amber. I found this post while reading through some of the stickies:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=2322948&postcount=80

So that seemed like a good starting point for a recipe.

I have no large equipment, I do have most of the pots/pans/other standard household items, so here is a list of what I think I'll need/want:

• Two 5-gallon carboys
• Stoppers+Air Locks
• Auto-Siphon+Hose
• Sanitizer
• Hydrometer + Graduated Cylinder
• Bottles
• Bottle Caps
• Bottle Capper
• Bottling Bucket
• pectic enzyme
• Nottingham Ale Yeast

Some bits of the process I'm not sure about:

• To take an SG reading, do you need a specialized tool to reach down and grab enough cider to measure mid-ferment? What would that tool be called?

• I was thinking about just fermenting, start to finish, in my basement...which isn't terribly temperature controlled. Will having a lowish temp (somewhere in the 60s) do anything bad to a ferment? or just slow it down? Should I make an insulated box?

• Should I invest upfront in any kind of tool/widget for cleaning either the bottles or carboys? Like a specialized nozzle or something?

Sound reasonable?

 

[menerdari]

I would add a fermentation bucket, something like an ale pail, that is 6.5 gallons.
You need extra head space for primary fermentation and at some point you will want to make more than just cider.
The tool to get a sample is called a wine thief, most of the time you can float your hydrometer right in it.
get a brush for your carboys, the inside top shoulder is hard to reach without one.
I ferment in my basement, mid 60s, perfect.
I like to add yeast energizer and pectic enxyme about 12 hours before pitching yeast.
add a bottling wand to your order as well.

 

[citytransplant]

Caveat: I'm new to cider too.

You won't need 2 carboys in my opinion. As mendari said, grab a new 6.5 gallon bucket for your primary and from there go to a (one) carboy for secondary. Less expensive way to go.

 

[BeeDeeEff]

Wouldn't it be easier to see when I'm getting close to the yeast cake on the bottom if I was racking from a clear container? or is it obvious enough through most buckets?

 

[menerdari]

the auto-siphon has a standoff on the bottom that keeps you out of the yeast cake, plus with the lid off you will easily see the bottom way before you get near it.
when I am racking from primary I rack as much as I can get, tilt the bucket near the end to get as much as I can and very little of the lees gets through, it pretty much stays at the bottom.
I set my bucket up on the table the day before I am going to rack so it will settle before racking and try not to move it much when I am racking, just a gentle tilt near the end (I put a small towel under the edge of the bucket to tilt it)

 

[Maylar]

Wouldn't it be easier to see when I'm getting close to the yeast cake on the bottom if I was racking from a clear container? or is it obvious enough through most buckets?

Yes, it is. Sometimes the sediment (called lees) is a couple inches thick and if you can't see bottom there's risk of siphoning some during racking. You will lose cider when racking to secondary, so having a 6 gallon primary and 5 gallon secondary lets you fill the secondary without air space.

Or, 5 gal + 3 gal + a couple 1 gal + 1/2 gal... I have a bunch of different sizes. Bungs and airlocks too.

A wine thief or sanitized turkey baster works for taking samples. Need yeast nutrient in your shopping list too.

Welcome to cider making.

 

[BeeDeeEff]

Thanks for all the replies!

One last question before I go dive in on the equipment forum...

Is yeast nutrient needed in all ciders? or only when, like me, you plan on using filtered juice instead of fresh-pressed cider?

 

[BGBC]

Apple juice (regardless of filtration) is not as nutrient dense as beer wort, so yeast nutrient will help you have a healthy fermentation.

 

[gratus fermentatio]

Something you might want to consider is using flip-top bottles instead of standard bottles & crown caps. They cost more initially, but they're reusable & you don't need the crown caps, nor do you need a capper. You will need to replace the rubber gaskets eventually, but they last quite a while & cost just a few cents to replace. I bottle beer & cider (and some wine & mead) in 1 liter flip-tops now, and since I also have smaller flip-top bottles, I don't even use crown caps for samplers anymore. Flip-tops save me so much time & effort I'll never go back to crown caps. They come in clear, brown & blue too.
http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/ez-cap-bottles-brown-1-liter-with-flip-tops
Regards, GF.

 

[Crash21]

I have been making cider for just about a year and my suggestions would be:

Don't go big at first. Just make 1 gallon batches until you get it where you like it. Also you know you WILL end up with some nasty stuff at some point as you learn and it will minimize the pain of throwing it out.
You can find organic juice that comes in a glass jug, you have juice AND a carboy right there.
Go with swingtop bottles.
Get more than one brand of yeast. I prefer Lalvin ec1118 and Mangrove Jacks M2 Cider yeast
Pick up a couple of funnels too.
Also a turkey baster is the way to go to pull samples. The LHBS wanted 20 bucks for a wine thief and the baster was 5 at WalMart.

 

[Bombo80]

My suggestion for anybody just getting into brewing would be to purchase a starter kit. They come with everything you need. Primary bucket, bottling bucket, carboy, auto siphon, tubing, capper, hydrometer, thermometer, airlock, bottle caps, bottle filler, and a few other items. Midwest has them for $100.

I attended the local homebrew club "Teach a Friend to Brew Day" a few years ago, with my fiance', and she actually won one of these kits. Also, last year, we invited a good friend to come to the event, and she won a starter kit for he husband. He had always talked about getting into brewing. After she won the kit, he had no excuses anymore. We talk brewing and trade samples regularly now.

Bottom line, if you are thinking about getting into homebrewing, think about one of these starter kits. The only other major thing would be a larger boiling pot. I have a few of the turkey cookers that I use. You don't have to go expensive.

 

[BeeDeeEff]

Ok I have the equipment now, and I was a bit mislead as to what came with the kit I got (cheaper than buying most of the stuff separately).

It came with a white powder called "Easy Clean No Rinse Cleanser", from the googling I've done it seems like it might be a generic version of one-step that can't legally label itself as a sanitizer because it hasn't gone through a required FDA verification process to use that term.

I've read tons of anecdotes of people using it without issue, and tons of people warning against using it thinking it is ozyclean. So since the Star San I just ordered from amazon won't get here until wednesday, think I would be ok just using this stuff as both my cleaner and sanitizer? It says no rinse, but should I try and drain as much as possible? or will any portion that dries inside the fermenter become no longer sanitary?

I'm only planning on doing one-gallon batches until I find a recipe I like for my cider, so not too much is lost if it turns out weird.

 

[MarkKF]

I used one step without a single problem for my first few years. I switched to Star San and still no problems. So whatever.

 

[Maylar]

I use One Step as a cleaner followed by star san as a sanitizer. One step leaves a film and even though they say no rinse I always rinse it off with warm water. It's great for scrubbing out the goo in the bottom of used bottles and cleaning carboys, and it helps remove old labels too.

 

[bernardsmith]

Hi BeeDeeEff, Not sure about the underlying question you ask about sampling - You don't need to stick your arm into the fermenter to get a good sample - Because you will have been stirring the cider a couple of times a day so there should be no strata where the yeast are active and strata where the sugar is more concentrated. You stir for three reasons - a) to ensure no strata form (more a problem with very large volumes and tall fermenters) b) to remove CO2 - its presence can inhibit fermentation and even stall it and kill yeast and c) to incorporate air into the cider or wine... Brewers collapse at the thought of introducing air into their fermenters once they have pitched the yeast but wine makers view air as really important for yeast activity including reproduction... However, once the active fermentation has stopped or resulted in a gravity of about 1.005 then you want to stop adding air as this will detrimentally affect the cider/wine and the yeast will need to deal with the lack of O2 as best it can... (indeed, many - most - wine makers add K-meta each time they rack , a substance that produces SO2 and which inhibits oxidation)...

 

[madscientist451]

Some of the above I agree with, some I don't....but everyone has their own way.
A good way to start out is to get 2 carboys, one 5 gallon and one 3 gallon. Put about 3.5 to 4 gallons of juice in the bigger carboy and get it fermenting. When it stops, rack to the 3 gallon carboy and fill it right up to the neck. You'll leave behind dead yeast, live yeast that settled and fruit solids. I let the dregs in the big carboy settle and then carefully pout the top most of it to a 1/2 gallon jug and it goes into the fridge to settle some more and I'll drink this "young cider" in a day or two. The 3 gallon cider gets aged for 2-3 months to settle some more and aging also helps the taste. Depending what yeast you started with, you can re-pitch the first run yeast into your next batch if you want to.

 

[WVMJ]

Ok I have the equipment now.

What did you get? You can always rinse the no rinse stuff off if you want, we use the oxyclean unscented for the cleaner and starsan for the sanitiser and store carboys rinsed and dry with a paper towel in the end to keep out dust.

As you can see so many ways to make cider As like MS we use a bigger carboy, like a big mouth bubbler for the primary with a cloth over the top for the first few days to stir and add any nutrient, then when that settles down put an airlock on it until it starts to drop, then into a carboy the right size with very little headspace, that is the important part, headspace for cider, keep it to just a little bit, when that clears either rack again or bottle. Beer bottles are cheap with crown caps, fliptops are classier but I will warn you that you will never get a flip top bottle back if your friends brew also!

WVMJ

 

[BeeDeeEff]

I got a $99 kit that had:

6.5 gallon primary fermenter bucket/lid
5 gallon glass carboy
6.5 gallon bottling bucket w/bottling wand
Bungs and air locks for the fermenters
Auto-siphon + hose
'Easy Clean No Rinse Cleanser' (seems to be a generic version of one-step)
Thermometer / hydrometer / ph strips
Bottle Capper
Paddle
Bottle brush
Carboy brush

Also got:
1 gallon glass jugs (got two of these) w/plugs air+locks
Mini auto-siphon
Nottingham Ale Yeast packs
Bottle Tree / Sanitizer bottle pump
Faucet water jet adapter
Peptic enzyme
Fermax yeast nutrient
+other stuff I'm probably forgetting

Anyway I went ahead and used the Easy-Clean as instructed, treated it like one-step for required contact time, and have a gallon-sized batch bubbling away using the recipe I linked in the first post.

Once I find a recipe I like and get more used to the process I'll go for larger batches. Also I put some Star San on order since I didn't like using the one-step knock-off very much.

Thanks for all the replies to this thread!

 

[BeeDeeEff]

Started fermenting the sunday before last, racked yesterday. Smells really good.

 

[WVMJ]

Lotta headspace there, got to be careful with cider and too much empty space, can you top it up with a little more cider to fill the jug up a little more? WVMJ

 

[BeeDeeEff]

At this point I'm doing ~1 gallon batches until I find a recipe I like. I'm not in any rush, so I'd rather not jump into 5 gallon ferments right away.

But yeah I was a bit scared of overfilling my primary as I've never done cider before...really didn't want it to blow out. Pictured is the secondary and I probably left more in the primary then I should've...

So learning.

 

[BeeDeeEff]

Just bottled today after ~2 weeks clearing in the secondary once it dryed up in the primary.

Primed the 1 gallon batch with 1 oz table sugar in boiled water (5oz for 5 gallons is something I saw floating around several places). Here's hoping they don't blow up on me or any of the caps leak.