New guy with etiquette questions

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Jq1n

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Ok here's the situation. A buddy of mine and myself were talking about brewing beer forever. We made plans to split on equipment to make it cheaper. Over time I ended up buying or making everything required to brew except the mash tun. He made the mash tun (which broke during our first brew day but thats beside the point). We set a brew day and I picked out a basic recipe. I ordered the grains and picked them up and got everything prepared. He showed up on brew day with the water (he bought several gallons of spring water for brewing). Due to the excitement I forgot to get the money for his half of the ingredients and he never volunteered. He had to go home before the boil was finished, I ended up doing everything else including clean up. I also did the transfer to secondary fermenter and all of the gravity measurements etc. He came over for bottling and we split the duties but the beer has remained at my place until it is carbed up.
Etiquette question is : how much beer does he own? I feel like giving him half but I'm not sure if I should since I bought all the equipment, ingredients, bottles, and did the large majority of the labour. Anyone else been in this situation?

Also, we have talked about brewing together but does that mean I have to brew every batch with him? Can I go rogue? I'm so thirsty to try new recipes but he only wants to brew the same thing again and again until we improve our brew process. I understand that in the sense that we will be able to taste our improved processes in the quality of the same recipe over and over but it sounds boring as hell.
Anyways, that's my conundrum and why I signed up to post instead of just reading like I usually do.
Jq1n
 
IMHO get his money for the first batch and split it with him. Then buy him out of his part of the gear. Then you have a full set up and can brew whenever and whatever you want. If he wants to brew with you, then you guys can just split the cost of the recipes you do.

Partnerships and co-ownership at the homebrew level always seem to be more of a headache than just owning the gear yourself and partnering up from time to time.
 
Crappy situation to be in, I think the important thing to do to avoid this is to come up with the plan ahead of buying stuff - ie who is buying what equipment and who is buying what consumables. I would say the fact that you own more equipment doesn't factor in on how the beer is split up, it just means that you are the one who gets to keep it and use it as you wish. The consumables (sani, water, ingredients, etc) should be split 50/50 on cost for a batch that's being split 50/50. I'd add up the total cost and divide by two, and ask for that difference.

It sounds like you two have quite different priorities so maybe alternating who gets creative control on each batch is the way to go. That's what myself and a coworker do, because while we're not as different as you and your brew partner in priorities, we do want different things sometimes. In that case, whoever's turn it is to choose the recipe also buys and brings all the ingredients.
 
Ask him for his half of the first recipe if you are not concerned about offending him.

After that, feel free to brew those same recipes over and over with him to get them nailed down tight.

And brew what YOU want between those batches! I would expect him to also help in equipment and storage during the process.

Of course your relationship may be entirely different. If it was MY buddy wanting to brew, I'd probably be fine hosting him every time, and I'd be perfectly fine with him fermenting and bottling at my place as well. From the outside, though, it sounds like you want to keep it closer to a business relationship.

It might be a good idea to write down the cost and time involved in getting your brewing system set up. Then maybe hang it somewhere noticeable. Hopefully he would recognize his fair share and offer to make good on it.
 
If he's you're buddy, give him half that beer...its a small price to pay for peace in the friendship since you two failed to be clear in the exchange. The let him know if you're going to brew together again, that you can't foot the expenses primarily by yourself. Brew when and what you want to brew (after getting your own mashtun) and let him know that he's welcome to brew with you anytime he wants...it's worth the extra effort to have a buddy that enjoys brewing as well.
 
Gently remind him of the portion he owes. You could just charge half of the ingredients you bought, minus half of the water he contributed. A good time to bring it up would be right before he comes over to pick up his share of the beer. If he's a true friend he won't feel imposed upon.

Keep your equipment. You will always have it on hand for when you want to brew. You can offer to loan the gear for his own brews. However, if he is still big on the cost-sharing, make sure he offers half of what you paid for the gear. Then work out (in advance!) the time-sharing of it. Insist that each of you returns it to the other in good, clean condition. You don't want this to ruin a friendship.
 
I'd also remind him (gently) of his share of the cost. If he pays up, give him some of the spoils. If not, ask him to foot the bill the next time before you brew together.

When I started brewing, I had grand schemes of the guys coming over and doing collaborative brews, but it quickly got to be more trouble than it was worth. I was storing all the gear, doing most of the actual self-education on techniques and theory, and footing most of the bill. They would show up for brewing or bottling, but mostly just get in the way or drink my beer. Too many cooks in the kitchen, and all that.

Eventually I found it was just easier to handle it all myself. That, and I've gotten to feel it is soothing to just turn up some music and brew with no one else around.
 
Holy responses. I think I'm gonna like this place! After typing out the situation and reading all of the responses so far, this is what I'm gonna do. I'm going to eat the costs on the first batch. The ingredients cost $43 total, minus the cost of water, divided by 2= maybe $15. Chump change really if you think about it. He's a really good buddy so no big deal there. I'm going to give him half the beer to keep the peace like suggested. What goes around comes around and I wouldn't be surprised if he buys the next batch. Next batch we do I will get him to pick up the ingredients and give him my half of the money, that way i can insure that we split. I'm def keeping all the equipment, I ordered a bazooka screen off eBay to make my own mash tun. I will def brew with him in the future but I'm also going rogue and brew-my-own-adventure as well. (I want to try a pilsner but he has no interest at this point.)Problem solved. In hind sight I kind of wish I had never suggested a 'partnership' because now when I do brew on my own I hope he isn't offended. Anyway, if I could do it all over again I would make my language more clear and take the stance of "I'm brewing, wanna join in sometimes" instead of "let's brew" cuz that has made me feel like it's a partnership and I can't do what I want with my hobby. I'm sure everything will be cool in the end, just gotta maybe ruffle some feathers a little to get there.
Jq1n
 
Yeah I had the same grand ideas but one batch in I'm noticing that I do waaaaaay more reading on the topic and my buddy has hardly done any. I'm clearly more into it with buying the equipment and learning technique. Maybe this is a lone wolf type hobby?
 
Wow, lots of very lonely brewers on here. It is as simple as this, he buys the next beer you guys brew. I've been brewing with a friend of mine for 11 years and we do it all the time. Key word here is friend. If you are truly friends you will figure it out, otherwise you probably aren't that good of friends to begin with. The equipment works itself out if you ever part ways, just keep track. There will typically be one of you that goes "all-in" in researching and learning techniques and whatnot, but that doesn't mean the other guy doesn't want to brew he just didn't catch the bug as hard. Think of what you've got as a head brewer - assistant brewer relationship, you might be designing the recipes and laying out the processes, but I'm sure you would like a second set of hands when it comes time to clean out that mash tun.
 
True lol, maybe next time I'll just say "I bought last time! You're buying this time!" and that will be that
 
ECBrew said:
Wow, lots of very lonely brewers on here. It is as simple as this, he buys the next beer you guys brew. I've been brewing with a friend of mine for 11 years and we do it all the time. Key word here is friend. If you are truly friends you will figure it out, otherwise you probably aren't that good of friends to begin with. The equipment works itself out if you ever part ways, just keep track. There will typically be one of you that goes "all-in" in researching and learning techniques and whatnot, but that doesn't mean the other guy doesn't want to brew he just didn't catch the bug as hard. Think of what you've got as a head brewer - assistant brewer relationship, you might be designing the recipes and laying out the processes, but I'm sure you would like a second set of hands when it comes time to clean out that mash tun.
Click to expand...

I'm never alone, usually a friend is over to "help" (i.e. drink beer and keep the tunes going), but I would never "split" a batch with him. I'll usually promise to get him some unspecified amount and usually it's six or a few bombers or whatever.

I'd be more than happy to lend him my equipment to do his own, but that beer is my beer damn it. He can think up his own recipe, buy his own ingredients, etc.

I guess if he wanted to go in on a 10 gal batch (which I am capable of doing now), I might consider it. But time is money and with the amount of beer I consume, 5 gal only lasts 2-3 weeks at most. No way I'd give half of that up.
 
I agree with the give him half the beer and then tell him next time he supplies the ingredients, you supply the water. Me being me, I'd just figure the equipment is mine. But that's me...I wouldn't want to have half my setup owned by someone else. That way If you guys ever stopped being friends for one reason or another you won't have the property settlement issue to figure out.
 
I'd hold 100% of the beer because this sounds like its your operation and let him know that because he's obviously having trouble making good on promises right from the start, that you're going to make the executive decision to abandon the joint effort, but he is welcome to brew with you another day, payment up front. Broke friends aren't fun (no offense to any broke HBTers...)
 
Approximate the cost of the MT, then figure up the total bill for all equipment/ingredients/etc., get the percentage that he actually chipped in for, and give him that. Haha.
 
My brew buddy and I split our new eHERMS rig 50/50 and brew 10g batches together. We each end up with a keg at the end. We just alternate brews, he picks one then i pick one. We have a good rotation of 4-5 beers that we brew regularly and then experiment from time to time too. I should add that we have always brewed together, just on two separate 5g systems. He actually taught me to brew.

We do have a spreadsheet of who has bought what, both equipment and ingredients, and that has worked very well for us to keep things pretty even when it comes to spending. A quick check of that sheet and we know who's turn it is to buy.

We are pretty luck that he has a huge shop and we have all of our gear there and I have access to it any time i need.

Communication is key from the start. If you don't feel he is holding up his end of the deal then you have to decide if it is worth it to be "partners" on your brew system. Otherwise maybe buying him out of what he put into the equipment is best. Then when he wants to brew with you he knows he needs to pony up for his part of the ingredients.

If it were me I would share the batch with him and call it good. I find that "it all comes out in the wash." Make him buy you a few rounds or pizza the next time you brew.
 
Do you guys split the cost when you buy a case of BMC and count out bottles? Give him half the beer and tell him his half of the tab came out to $15. If he doesn't come up with money, you just drink his half when you're at his place, and steal the last hamburger off the grill as interest. If you pay for it and brew by yourself, you're still going to end up giving away beer.
 
Jq1n said:
Ok here's the situation. A buddy of mine and myself were talking about brewing beer forever. We made plans to split on equipment to make it cheaper. Over time I ended up buying or making everything required to brew except the mash tun. He made the mash tun (which broke during our first brew day but thats beside the point). We set a brew day and I picked out a basic recipe. I ordered the grains and picked them up and got everything prepared. He showed up on brew day with the water (he bought several gallons of spring water for brewing). Due to the excitement I forgot to get the money for his half of the ingredients and he never volunteered. He had to go home before the boil was finished, I ended up doing everything else including clean up. I also did the transfer to secondary fermenter and all of the gravity measurements etc. He came over for bottling and we split the duties but the beer has remained at my place until it is carbed up.
Etiquette question is : how much beer does he own? I feel like giving him half but I'm not sure if I should since I bought all the equipment, ingredients, bottles, and did the large majority of the labour. Anyone else been in this situation?

Also, we have talked about brewing together but does that mean I have to brew every batch with him? Can I go rogue? I'm so thirsty to try new recipes but he only wants to brew the same thing again and again until we improve our brew process. I understand that in the sense that we will be able to taste our improved processes in the quality of the same recipe over and over but it sounds boring as hell.
Anyways, that's my conundrum and why I signed up to post instead of just reading like I usually do.
Jq1n
Click to expand...

I'd just give him his water back and keep the beer.
 
Split the batch. Then possibly setup a schedule to brew as partners and nail that one recipe. Then just buy more fermenters and bottles/kegs for yourself. Then share your brews. "Check this out. I brewed this (insert style) the other day!" That may spark more excitement from your buddy. Don't even worry about equipment cost at this point. If the labor is too much just ask for help. "Will you (insert direction) while I (insert direction)."
 
Psylocide said:
I guess if he wanted to go in on a 10 gal batch (which I am capable of doing now), I might consider it.
Click to expand...

I've done that a couple times, now that I have a 20g BK. Some of my brew friends don't have all their gear yet, so we do a sort of "brewing co-op," and we split a 10g batch. Split the ingredient costs down the middle (except yeast--they're on their own for that), and the other guy brings his own fermenter to fill. Guests bring beer and food. Everybody who shows up volunteers to help set up and clean up. It works great, no drama, everybody knows the drill.

But all that said, about half of my brews I do by myself. I still enjoy the solitude some times.
 
Give him half the beer, buy him out of any equipment cost if it's something you think you could use. Brewing is already a time consuming process, don't make it worse by needing to coordinate with a friend - especially since you're both beginners.
 
I would go 50/50 just because it would be awkward to give the guy two six packs and walk away with the rest. If you are concerned with cost then you should really talk to him and figure it out beforehand. There are other ways to recoup cost like buying food during brew day. Additionally you can always turn the table and tell him that he has to buy the next recipe.
 
I was in a similar situation last year when I got back into brewing. Myself and a couple of friends decided to do a batch, after the first batch it was really obvious that I was way more into it than the other two guys. Now I do 10g batches on my own. I'm perfectly happy if someone wants to come hangout and "help" (clean a bit and drink), but I'm fine to brew on my own. At this point it's my brewery.
 
This isn't about the cost of ingredients. Friends spend an extra 15 bucks here and there. If one has more disposable income, expect to subsidize the other. No, this is about creative control. This partnership just doesn't work because your goals are different.

"Hey buddy, you know you're my bud, but I want to do some other things with this hobby, so I plan to get a mash tun and do some brews like a lone wolf. I still want to brew together sometimes, but mostly I need you to come over and have a beer with me and tell me how great it is. Okay with that?"

If not, run him over with your truck.
 
Give him half the beer and some money for whatever equipment he chipped in for. Never brew with him again. Some things will never change. I have A BROTHER N LAW WHO IS THE BIGGEST MOOCHER IN THE WORLD!!! I have known him for over 40 years and he has NEVER changed!!
 
I say let him drink a few of the beers when he comes to visit. You did most of the work and bought most of the stuff...you get most of the beer.
 
All in all, it sounds a bit sketchy to me, at least as far as the friendship goes. If he's not paying his part and you have a concern about asking him to pay his part, then how strong is the friendship in the first place?

Personally, I'd just go through with it and give him his half, then ask, "What are we doing next?" Followed by, "You'll buy the ingredients for this batch since I got the last right?"

If he balks at the idea, then you know where your friendship lies, at least at the brewing level.

I guess this is why I usually do this stuff on my own, then invite people over to brew with me if they want, then just leave the open invitation to come over and drink whenever they want.

Honestly, in the moment, being busy, he probably just forgot about the cash. I wouldn't sweat it too much.
 
I am in nearly the exact same situation. Except that I started on my own, and we became friends after, and he was a little interested in the idea. Mainly just the good beer though. He has tried to learn the steps of brewing extract, and I've even thrown in some steeping grains while he's been there, but he's just not a detailed person at all. But I know that about him, so I can't expect anything better. It was pretty cool when he wanted to chip in and buy some equipment. But then it was really ****ty when I gave him very specific instructions of what to buy, and he came back with only two of the items on the list, and a whole bunch of other **** that we didn't need.

He's also one of those people who will flake out of doing the work (granted he's an architect and has to spend lots of time at his work during the weekdays). The only thing that he's really good at (when it comes to this brewing partnership) is paying up his half of the ingredients. I've been pretty pissed at him recently, but my wife helped me with some advice, and I think it applies to your situation as well.

The fact is, I do like the guy, and I do consider him a good friend, and I would still like to be friends and drinking buddies together. The only problem here is that we're obviously both not very good at communication. That and our schedules make it hard to consistently brew together without it being a little stressful. The last thing I want is for our friendship to feel stressful, AND for my brewing to feel stressful. So I'm just going to attempt to talk it out with him. It's honestly stupid to hold it inside instead of just talking about it like adults. So now I'm going to tell him that he could take his small portion of the equipment, or I could pay him for it, and we will just brew when it fits our schedules best. No stress whatsoever. And of course we will try to hang out and drink those beers together more often than that. And I figure since I'm brewing my own choice of recipes often enough anyways, then when we do brew together, he can choose what to brew.

Luckily my wife is on board with the hobby, so she lets me invest in more equipment (because she gets to go buy dumb crap for her hobbies as well!). Also, the guy is German and has some ins to Oktoberfest, so I can't just stop the friendship! ;)
 
Pkrd said:
Before accurately calculating the split, we need to no how the beer tastes. :tank:
Click to expand...

Lol, I'd like to know that too! I'm a noob and have made a couple noob mistakes so it's taking a while to get this beer in my belly! I added a week to the fermentation for some reason then stored the bottled beer in my basement. The basement is a little too cold I think so 3 weeks hasn't been enough to carb it up fully. We drank about 6 of them last weekend with a couple other people to try the beer out but it wasn't carbed perfectly. Some were more carbed than others and some were hardly carbed at all. I moved the rest of the beer to a warmer closet upstairs so hopefully that will make it carb a little faster this week. This first beer is teaching me a tonne. Hopefully this Sunday me and the brew buddy can drink more of them, split the rest and start our next batch. I'm eager as hell and already planning (months in advance to actually starting I admit) a honey lager for the xmas holidays!
 
Jq1n said:
We drank about 6 of them last weekend with a couple other people to try the beer out but it wasn't carbed perfectly. Some were more carbed than others and some were hardly carbed at all.
Click to expand...

If you are getting beer that is inconsistently carbed, one of the main reasons for that is that the priming sugar is not getting mixed thoroughly - so one bottle ends up with more sugar, another less.

If I bottle condidition, I mix about 2/3 cup corn sugar with about 8-12 ounces of water and boil it down to about 4-6 ounces of liquid. Add it to bottom of my bottling bucket. Transfer beer onto the sugar-liquid. Stir gently to keep mixing - fine line of mixing but not adding oxygen to the finished beer.
 
Braufessor said:
Add it to bottom of my bottling bucket. Transfer beer onto the sugar-liquid. Stir gently to keep mixing - fine line of mixing but not adding oxygen to the finished beer.
Click to expand...

Like I said, learning a lot. This is what I did except for the gentle stir. I read about it afterwards. Wish I'd read about it before. Oh well, for a first beer it doesn't taste bad and once it's more carbed and sits in the bottle a little longer it should be really good.
Thanks eh
 
If you make sure that your siphon hose is laying a bit on the bottom up against the side of the bottling bucket, there should be no reason to stir afterward, as the power and motion of the siphoning should cause enough of a stirring motion for you. Although I will stir a tiny bit on smaller batches (4-5L), just because I feel the time it's siphoning out doesn't do the job. But with 19L or bigger batches I never stir and always get even carbonation.
 
When I first started brewing, me and a few buddies were drinking a pint and I said screw it I want to brew my own, so I went and bought literally everything that day. I didn't ask for any money for equipment but they bought the ingredients for the first batch. We brewed that one batch together and it was awful. It was easy to tell that I was more into the brewing process than they were, as I am constantly learning something every day and researching it and coming up with new ideas. So I packed up my equipment and I now brew at my apartment alone..with my cat, no hard feelings. I invite them over for a brew day once in a while but I don't ask them for anything. It's my beer. I just invite them for the company and to have a few pints while brewing. I found that it was too difficult to brew with a friend, because in the end they will see things differently than you will, and somebody will end up losing out on money, and a friendship can easily be ruined. I know you mentioned that it was to save money, but what if you guys used the same equipment, and each brewed your own batch? So your buddy can brew whatever beer he wants and then you brew yours afterwards or what not? You will both save on the actual equipment cost, and you guys will get to brew and learn more about each others process without butting heads on what you want to brew. Just my two cents!
 
If you are doing 90% of the work and research just go at it alone. Brewing by yourself is not bad and IMHO the distractions may hinder you from nailing down a brew day process. You will never need a second set of hands if you time things out correctly , where you are cleaning while mashing, boiling, etc. HBT is my brew buddy, no complaints so far and none in the foreseeable future.
 

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