300RUM
Well-Known Member
Only Nottingham has a sensitivity to the select brewer's having the problem.
New bad lot of Nottingham yeast ???
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Only Nottingham has a sensitivity to the select brewer's having the problem.
mullenite
Well-Known Member
Any yeast will go bad with improper handling. It has nothing to do with the fact that it's Nottingham. It could be that the bad packets all came from the same case or the same pallet.
There are too many unknowns to put it all on Lallemand at this point. It's hot out, it was hot out when this yeast shipped and if a couple cases got left out in the heat for too long that could have killed all the cells.
OP
OP
RavenChief
Well-Known Member
vtchuck
Well-Known Member
Did a 10 gallon batch of pale ale a few weeks back.... split it into 2 fermenters and pitched a hydrated pack of "bad lot" Notty into each. One was ripping the next day and the other took 48 hrs. to get going. Tasted both when transferring to the secondaries and both seem fine.
I did notice when proofing that the shape of the yeast particles seems different. In the past I would describe them as spheres.... now they seem to be tube shaped. Who knows??
I did notice when proofing that the shape of the yeast particles seems different. In the past I would describe them as spheres.... now they seem to be tube shaped. Who knows??
300RUM
Well-Known Member
I'm going to buy about 5 packets tomorrow I'll just hydrate it first but I will brew with it again.
Actually it may just make me rehydrate all my dry yeast from now on. Thats a silver lining
Actually it may just make me rehydrate all my dry yeast from now on. Thats a silver lining
SteveM
Well-Known Member
I'm sorry, I'm not buying the not-so-thinly-veiled implication that there are brewers' errors that are causing the problem with Nottingham yeast. If this was true, there would be just as many threads asking why Safale and other brands are not fermenting. Thus the tongue in cheek comment about how only Nottingham has the sensitivity to find brewers who are having problems.
If you have followed this forum for while, you know that there have been problems with Nottingham for a year or more. There are no doubt some subset of the people who post here who just screwed up, but this issue is not new and not "operator error" in most cases.
If you have followed this forum for while, you know that there have been problems with Nottingham for a year or more. There are no doubt some subset of the people who post here who just screwed up, but this issue is not new and not "operator error" in most cases.
My only experience with Nottinghams:
Lot #: 1080961099V exp 12/2011
Noticed odd behavior when I rehydrated the yeast. 2 days after pitch, no obvious signs of fermentation. rehydrated second sachet of yeast, a little more activity when rehydrated. Vigerous fermentation shortly after second pitch.
VERY ODD SMELL from both packets. Almost a rubbery or rubber smell. Not sure if this is typical or not. I've since racked my beer to keg, really hoping it turns out. It's my first experimental recipe. It'd be a shame if it was spoiled due to bad yeast.
Lot #: 1080961099V exp 12/2011
Noticed odd behavior when I rehydrated the yeast. 2 days after pitch, no obvious signs of fermentation. rehydrated second sachet of yeast, a little more activity when rehydrated. Vigerous fermentation shortly after second pitch.
VERY ODD SMELL from both packets. Almost a rubbery or rubber smell. Not sure if this is typical or not. I've since racked my beer to keg, really hoping it turns out. It's my first experimental recipe. It'd be a shame if it was spoiled due to bad yeast.
i also got for a third time a strange rehydration phase, smelled sour etc etc etc. i completely disregarded 2 first yeast packets and put in safale us04 instead. BUT, this third time (third brew) I put in a sachet, everything appeared to be NORMAL (ie fermentation started 12 hours after pitching). but it stopped at 1.025 gravity!!! it was a simple brown ale with OG of 1.054.
Has anybody noticed a reduction in apparent attentuation?
i wonder if i should repitch another yeast (any advice?)..
Has anybody noticed a reduction in apparent attentuation?
i wonder if i should repitch another yeast (any advice?)..
Rover
Well-Known Member
I haven't noticed any loss of attenuation out of the two bad packs I pitched.
What I did notice is a slow down of the whole process, post boil:
-extended lag time
-extended fermentation
-extended flocculation
-extended carb and conditioning.
fermentation temp 67F
In my experience, in the end, the beer tasted fine. It just put a dent in my pipeline
What I did notice is a slow down of the whole process, post boil:
-extended lag time
-extended fermentation
-extended flocculation
-extended carb and conditioning.
fermentation temp 67F
In my experience, in the end, the beer tasted fine. It just put a dent in my pipeline
stevedasleeve
Well-Known Member
There really is not a problem with this yeast. It is you.
see
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/fermentation-can-take-24-72-hrs-show-visible-signs-43635/
see
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/fermentation-can-take-24-72-hrs-show-visible-signs-43635/
Rover
Well-Known Member
I've had quite a few bad packs of nottingham yeast lately too. Got a pumpkin ale with no fermentation 4 days later. I've stirred it and nothing. Just repitched. I've got a few more packs of nottingham but I'm done with it.
SteveM
Well-Known Member
I could probably argue that after about 100 batches, I know something about brewing, and might further say that possibly one or two other people here also understand that fermenting sometimes starts slowly.
But as a former regular user of Nottingham, I can also say that it is not the product that it once was, and the discussion is not advanced in any meaningful way by posts like this one. That link was probably cited in every discussion thread over the past year (and there are plenty) about the deterioration of Nottingham's product.
Do you honestly think that no one taking part in this understands how long it takes for fermentation to start? Did you really think that posting your comment would be useful and helpful?
[Edited for clarity.]
Toecutter
Well-Known Member
Well I'm at 36 hours on my latest pitch and no visable signs of fermentation. all my other pitches started at about 18 hours.I think I'll give it another 12 and repitch. my wort might have been too hot when I pitched friday night, and i just remembered i forgot to Aereate this time
dwarven_stout
Well-Known Member
No offense, but this is exactly the kind of post that lends confusion to the whole thing. There are a very few experienced brewers (whom one would hope are treating their yeast properly) talking about having trouble, but that doesn't mean that one's first step when pitching hot with no aeration should be to blame the yeast for a poor ferment. The default assumption among experienced brewers who *are not* having trouble is that this behavior is happening in all reported "bad yeast" cases.
Rover
Well-Known Member
dwarven stout,
I have asked this question before and no one answered it. Maybe you can answer it for me.
Why are we not seeing any of these reported problems with Safale yeast? Maybe it's because Safale isn't used as much as Nottingham. Even if that was the case, Don't you think it would come up every once in a while? I'm sure that if you go search you might be able to find a case or two where you find some noob that didn't understand what they were doing and had long lag times but I can't find any experienced brewers complaining about any Safale like you can with Nottingham.
Maybe you can shed some light here.
I have asked this question before and no one answered it. Maybe you can answer it for me.
Why are we not seeing any of these reported problems with Safale yeast? Maybe it's because Safale isn't used as much as Nottingham. Even if that was the case, Don't you think it would come up every once in a while? I'm sure that if you go search you might be able to find a case or two where you find some noob that didn't understand what they were doing and had long lag times but I can't find any experienced brewers complaining about any Safale like you can with Nottingham.
Maybe you can shed some light here.
stevedasleeve
Well-Known Member
Actually no. I was being ironic. This is the mantra of some folks in response to the numerous "bad Nottingham" posts. I had 2 bad experiences myself and have sent off empty packs and my remaining full ones (same batch & lot numbers) to Lallemand after contacting them about it. Morebeer sympathized and sent me replacement S-05 to compensate.
No offense man!
dwarven_stout
Well-Known Member
Rover, I can't explain that. Really, your question would only mean something if SA05 and Notty were made by the same manufacturer, at the same plant, shipped on the same day, and pitched into identical fermenters full of the same beer. What I'm saying is that there are many variables, many places for something to happen that negatively impacts your beer. Really what is needed is some controlled testing with everything done properly- yeast rehydrated per spec, appropriate aeration and nutrition, appropriate ferment temps, and so forth. I'm not terribly inclined to put in the effort for that, since as I mentioned, I am having no trouble with this yeast.
What I did do, since it's a lazy day for me, was search these forums:
Realbeer
Northern Brewer
AHA
Brewer's Network
Morebeer
Morebeer had one reference to a bad batch with notty, expiration 9/2011. Northern Brewer had one reference, but the brewer was brand new and assuming that his yeast wasn't working because the airlock wasn't going. Even a google search for "bad nottingham yeast" only turned up results from the 2009 recall (which, by the way, was for slow starting yeast, not dead yeast).
This is the only forum that is convinced that Notty is ruining their beer.
I remain unconvinced that there is a problem. Note that this is different than assuming there is no problem.
What I did do, since it's a lazy day for me, was search these forums:
Realbeer
Northern Brewer
AHA
Brewer's Network
Morebeer
Morebeer had one reference to a bad batch with notty, expiration 9/2011. Northern Brewer had one reference, but the brewer was brand new and assuming that his yeast wasn't working because the airlock wasn't going. Even a google search for "bad nottingham yeast" only turned up results from the 2009 recall (which, by the way, was for slow starting yeast, not dead yeast).
This is the only forum that is convinced that Notty is ruining their beer.
I remain unconvinced that there is a problem. Note that this is different than assuming there is no problem.
Toecutter
Well-Known Member
so ijus popped the top off the fermentor. there was a nice thick layer of what looked like marshmallow creme with small pockets of yeast in it. I Aereated and repitched anyway. perhaps it was my Airlock not working well. Anyhoo, i waited about 10 minutes,looked again into the fermentation chamber and it was bubbling away happily, just like the notty always does for me. i mark this down in my book under the patience section
stevedasleeve
Well-Known Member
OK. Just to make this as clear as I can. This is not fiction. This is not stupid new brewers mistakes. This is not a case of forgetting a step or making an error or creating a fantasy cause.
I have made 100+ gallons this year using Nottingham. I do the same thing *every* time, I am a conscientious brewer aware of proper sanitation, yeast health, fermentation temperatures, proper pitching procedures etc etc etc. I pay very close attention to every detail and I make very good, very consistent beer. I use Nottingham for 95% of my beers.
I have had 2 problems. One batch simply did not ferment. I did nothing but worry and after 3 weeks or so it smelled awful and was the same gravity it began so I poured it down the drain. 2nd incident, different expiration date, different lot number, the yeast acted the very same way as the bum one before: the yeast fell to the bottom of the vessel after re-hydrating and did not cream, and smelled like meat. I pitched it anyway and 72 hours later there was, like the previous batch, no activity and the gravity had not changed so I re-pitched.
There is really no reason for people to make this **** up man. I am, as I am sure most people are who pay attention, thoroughly aware of appropriate procedures for pitching and the possible variables associated. The presumption that this is just a bunch of idiot newbee brewers making stuff up just irritates me no end. There *is* a problem, and posting about it is *responsible* and frankly one very good reason for having public, open, non commercial forums in the first place.
FWIW and YMMV and I'm done writing about this!
Steve da sleeve
First let me state I have not read through this thread completely until AFTER my experiences using Nottingham yesterday. My observations were out of the norm with prior use of this yeast so I decided to check this post out closer. After I read a number of posts I thought to myself - yeah I saw that too. So hence I am contributing my anecdotal information.
I used 2 sachets of Nottingham of the lot number in question. I used my normal dry yeast process
The day prior to brewing I boiled (2) 1 pint mason jars for 15 minutes and retained 1 cup of the water in each and sealed with the lids and rings, also boiled. Set the jars aside until brew day
On brew day, 60 min before I want to pitch, I placed both sealed jars in a water bath @ 110F for 30 min.
I sanitized my Thermapen probe in Star San and take the temp of the jars. Yesterday the temps in the jars were 90.2 and 90.5 respectively.
I dipped both sachets in Star San and let drip for 1 min. Using sanitized scissors I cut each sachet open and poured into the jars.
I leave the jars undisturbed for 15 min measured with a kitchen timer and then gently stir floating yeast into solution using a sanitized spoon. I then let sit another 15 min in a 65F water bath to match the yeast solution temp to the wort temp.
This procedure has been working well for me. I ran into a bit of trouble a while back not using warmed water rather room temp water to save a little effort with less then desirable attenuation results. I am now warming the water again before adding the yeast with good results.
Yesterday I noticed:
1) A bit of yeast in both the sachets clinging to the inside walls, more than I usually see from any dry yeast including Nottingham.
2) The yeast granules in both jars immediately began sinking to the bottom retaining their shape. They did not absorb the water the way I had seen other examples in the past. The entire contents of each sachet was on the bottom within a couple minutes which is not the normal behavior I have seen in the past.
3) After stirring the yeast solution with a spoon, the yeast granules began to stratify and sink to the bottom with very little yeast left in solution.
4) When first opening each jar I noticed a peculiar smell, sort of sour and pungent which concerned me so I took a another sniff but this time it smell ok. I got a whiff of this sour smell each time open the lid for the first time so I conclude some slight reaction/activity was occurring which produced the smell but quickly dissipated.
There is very little yeast activity visible 24 hours after pitching and I will wait until tomorrow before thinking about re-pitching some SA-05
I used 2 sachets of Nottingham of the lot number in question. I used my normal dry yeast process
The day prior to brewing I boiled (2) 1 pint mason jars for 15 minutes and retained 1 cup of the water in each and sealed with the lids and rings, also boiled. Set the jars aside until brew day
On brew day, 60 min before I want to pitch, I placed both sealed jars in a water bath @ 110F for 30 min.
I sanitized my Thermapen probe in Star San and take the temp of the jars. Yesterday the temps in the jars were 90.2 and 90.5 respectively.
I dipped both sachets in Star San and let drip for 1 min. Using sanitized scissors I cut each sachet open and poured into the jars.
I leave the jars undisturbed for 15 min measured with a kitchen timer and then gently stir floating yeast into solution using a sanitized spoon. I then let sit another 15 min in a 65F water bath to match the yeast solution temp to the wort temp.
This procedure has been working well for me. I ran into a bit of trouble a while back not using warmed water rather room temp water to save a little effort with less then desirable attenuation results. I am now warming the water again before adding the yeast with good results.
Yesterday I noticed:
1) A bit of yeast in both the sachets clinging to the inside walls, more than I usually see from any dry yeast including Nottingham.
2) The yeast granules in both jars immediately began sinking to the bottom retaining their shape. They did not absorb the water the way I had seen other examples in the past. The entire contents of each sachet was on the bottom within a couple minutes which is not the normal behavior I have seen in the past.
3) After stirring the yeast solution with a spoon, the yeast granules began to stratify and sink to the bottom with very little yeast left in solution.
4) When first opening each jar I noticed a peculiar smell, sort of sour and pungent which concerned me so I took a another sniff but this time it smell ok. I got a whiff of this sour smell each time open the lid for the first time so I conclude some slight reaction/activity was occurring which produced the smell but quickly dissipated.
There is very little yeast activity visible 24 hours after pitching and I will wait until tomorrow before thinking about re-pitching some SA-05
Rover
Well-Known Member
Fare enough,
I'm not quite sure why the two yeasts need to be made in the same... everything for Notty to be the only one having complainants for the slowness of the bad packs, but OK.
Notty is famous for starting up quickly and finishing even quicker. When brewers that have been using this yeast for years are reporting problems with it not acting as usual something is going on.
That being said I think more than 1/2 of the complainants in these threads is brewers error, and those aren't hard to pick out by reading, but I do think there is an issue with some of this lot#.
I also had trouble with Notty. After rehydrating and pitching I didn't see any activity after 12 hours. So I pitched another packet in case I did something wrong. It had been 48 hours since pitching the first packet and there is absolutely no activity. No gravity change. I had Windsor so I rehydrated and pitched and I saw activity in my air lock in less than 5 hours. I will be proofing the other Notty packets I have befor using it.
lot #1080961099v exp 12/2011
lot #1080961099v exp 12/2011
Toecutter
Well-Known Member
Well after re-pitching it went through mine like a buzz saw, and finished up today.
dwarven_stout
Well-Known Member
Are you also thoroughly aware of the appropriate procedures for shipping yeast? Do you babysit your sachels from loading dock to mailbox? If you buy online, do you include an icepack? As I have previously stated in this thread, I have used several sachels of notty from this lot, and I not had one fail yet. When I order brewing supplies online, I do so from Brewmaster's Warehouse, and Ed has never failed to ship my yeast on time and on a cold pack whether I asked for one or not.
The presumption that since you had a batch fail, Danstar *must* be at fault irritates me no end. The signs point to a shipping and/or supplier problem, *especially* when you consider that it was the middle of August when all of a sudden Notty started mysteriously "failing". Since some people in this thread haven't gotten this through their heads yet- Danstar has never recalled Nottingham for "not working". The recall in 2009 was for "slow starting". The handful of people posting that their yeast is not starting at all have dead yeast, and I would bet dollars to donuts that they got it shipped to them in the summer with no cold pack and left it in the mailbox all day until they got home from work/summer school.
If you have a problem, first of all make sure it's a dang problem! This thread is full of people who pitched notty, got scared by this thread, and ran around convinced their beer was ruined until it started 10 hours later like a mesopotamian miracle. If you actually do have a problem, and there are a few in this thread who do, make sure you let the supply chain know. If you're just b!tching in this thread and you haven't let your lhbs/morebeer/bmw/austin/whoever know about it, you're failing in the civic responsibility that that quoted post above rates so highly.
tl;dr: cut the dross, only complain when there's a problem, and be part of the solution.
I'm going to go have a beer (made fresh with notty
)
Hey dwarven....
Go ahead and rip on me too. After all my notty was slow starting crap also 72+ hours. Hell, maybe IT never started at all, and something else finally did. Oh, here we go, my poor sanitation blah blah blah. Unless you are brewing in a NASA or Intel positive pressure clean room, guess what, just about any airbourne spore can and does find its way into your fermentor. It is up to your viable yeast to dominate and make your beer what it should be period. My beer did finally finish. Does it taste like it should? No... it is sour, a drinkable sour anyway so I got that going for me. Maybe it will mellow out with some time.
I got my yeast in the spring before all the heat. It was my order from my local supplier, I unpacked it myself right out of the fed ex box from LD Carlson. 2 packs of notty (1080961099V), and 3 packs us-05, 2 packs WB-06, 1 pack S-33, and one pack T-58. All but the Notty performed flawlessly. Call all this what you want, or better yet, stay out of this thread, after all you don't have a problem....lucky you. To your statement that this is not a Danstar problem, YOU ARE WRONG.....It is a Danstar problem, maybe not their fault/cause, but if they have many people out there that are not comfortable with their product that is their problem. The cause of this could be Quality Control problems, packaging issues, shipping, storage, poor distributors. Who knows, but they better get a handle on it, it is thier reputation. Bottom line, if you have this lot of yeast proof it before you pitch it, this is what people need to know.
Am I going to leave Notty forever, no way, it is my favorite, and I hope this is an isolated issue. I will be proofing their product the next few times before I'll regain my confidence.
Go ahead and rip on me too. After all my notty was slow starting crap also 72+ hours. Hell, maybe IT never started at all, and something else finally did. Oh, here we go, my poor sanitation blah blah blah. Unless you are brewing in a NASA or Intel positive pressure clean room, guess what, just about any airbourne spore can and does find its way into your fermentor. It is up to your viable yeast to dominate and make your beer what it should be period. My beer did finally finish. Does it taste like it should? No... it is sour, a drinkable sour anyway so I got that going for me. Maybe it will mellow out with some time.
I got my yeast in the spring before all the heat. It was my order from my local supplier, I unpacked it myself right out of the fed ex box from LD Carlson. 2 packs of notty (1080961099V), and 3 packs us-05, 2 packs WB-06, 1 pack S-33, and one pack T-58. All but the Notty performed flawlessly. Call all this what you want, or better yet, stay out of this thread, after all you don't have a problem....lucky you. To your statement that this is not a Danstar problem, YOU ARE WRONG.....It is a Danstar problem, maybe not their fault/cause, but if they have many people out there that are not comfortable with their product that is their problem. The cause of this could be Quality Control problems, packaging issues, shipping, storage, poor distributors. Who knows, but they better get a handle on it, it is thier reputation. Bottom line, if you have this lot of yeast proof it before you pitch it, this is what people need to know.
Am I going to leave Notty forever, no way, it is my favorite, and I hope this is an isolated issue. I will be proofing their product the next few times before I'll regain my confidence.
SteveM
Well-Known Member
I'm done commenting on this. I'm an experienced brewer with almost a decade of experience and scores of batches. I've mentored several new brewers who have become successful. I'm not some noob who panics when something new or unusual happens. I control my processes closely, practice good sanitation and have never once have a failed batch.
Not all Nottingham is not right -obviously, some of it, maybe most of it works fine. But I've seen, with my own eyes, a problem. If you've been fortunate and not seen an issue, good for you. That doesn't mean one doesn't exist.
Not all Nottingham is not right -obviously, some of it, maybe most of it works fine. But I've seen, with my own eyes, a problem. If you've been fortunate and not seen an issue, good for you. That doesn't mean one doesn't exist.
dwarven_stout
Well-Known Member
I'm sure you noted that I said exactly that. Since you feel legitimate in complaining about a problem, let me ask- have you informed your supplier? lanlx, have you informed yours? Have you posted anything about the specifics of your supply, fermentation, temps, etc in this thread? I still see a lot of notty trashing without any details whatsoever. Not to put too fine a point on it, but that behavior is worthless.
Also, let me point out one more thing, since lanlx's post reminded me of it: I have found that notty fermented warm (anything over 70, really) develops a slight lemony tartness alongside the typical higher-temp esters. I would hate to see anyone accusing Nottingham of letting their batch get infected and sour when they're really just fermenting too warm. A corollary to this is the temperature sensitivity of Nottingham. SA-05 handles higher ferment temps better than Notty, which is really happiest around 60.
Yes, to all of the above, in this thread or another. And yes I still have my empty sachets and will contact Danstar.
(this to everyone except dwarven)
The point of this thread is to let people know there IS an issue with this yeast lot. proof it before you pitch it.
(this is for dwarven)
Yes, thank you, I now understand no problem has ever existed with notty, the moon walk was staged, the CIA killed JFK, and the government blew up the twin towers, because I can't prove otherwise.
dwarven_stout
Well-Known Member
Interesting. Your posting history certainly shows no signs of having done so. I'm talking pitch temp, ferment temp, original gravity, aeration yes/no, nutrient yes/no, rehydration yes/no, place of purchase, and so forth, not "omg 72 hour start notty suxxx". I do hope you contact Danstar and give them good information.
Look. I'm not trying to insult people here. I'm not trying to tell people who are having trouble that they are imagining things. I'm not trying to say that if there is something wrong with your beer then it must be your fault.
If you have a bad sachel and you contact the manufacturer, you're halfway there. However, if all you do is tell them that you have a bad batch and you blame their yeast, they will discard your complaint because they will assume you did something wrong to kill their yeast. A complete rundown on your process and the variables of your unique system are important if for no other reason than it helps convince the rightfully skeptical that there is something wrong going on.
Once again, if you have a truely bad batch and all you're doing is b!tching in these threads and not contacting the manufacturer with a complete rundown on your brewing process and the yeast symptoms in your batch, then you're just spinning your wheels (and scaring new brewers in the process).
This is just being dense. If you can't see the value of backing up anecdotal claims with some sort of actual qualitative and quantitative documentation, then I frankly think you deserve yeast that is quality-checked by anecdote.
300RUM
Well-Known Member
There is no problem... I pitched US 05 and 12 hours later had Krausen and airlock activity.
Ohh my Notty starter done the same time still nothing visable however I did not take gravity reading, but the yeast is still laying on the bottom
Ohh my Notty starter done the same time still nothing visable however I did not take gravity reading, but the yeast is still laying on the bottom
dwarven_stout
Well-Known Member
There is no problem... I pitched US 05 and 12 hours later had Krausen and airlock activity.
Ohh my Notty starter done the same time still nothing visable however I did not take gravity reading, but the yeast is still laying on the bottom
S-05 does what Theirs does, without the twang or the apprehension.
DZello
Active Member
Sunday I pitched my batch with this yeast and everything is fine, got kreusen after 1 day. Same lot number than everyone who had problems. I suppose not every packets of this lot are bad.
inspector13
Well-Known Member
I will apologize now. I'm at work and don't have lots of time to read. Pitched Nottingham, same lot #, into a batch of Eds Haus Pale wart at 68 degrees, split into two carboys. 72 hours nothing. No change in gravity. Will be going by AHS in a little bit. I'm going to get liquid yeast to re-pitch. Do I just aerate and pitch or what. Sorry but I need a quick answer. Thanks once again for the guidance.
300RUM
Well-Known Member
Last batch was exactly that same thing. I just added a sachet of Safale US 05 and it took off, but fermented for about 12 days. Good luck
Just re-pitch. Don't aerate after adding yeast.
