New bad lot of Nottingham yeast ???
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Montanaandy
Well-Known Member
Shooter:
Yes, I am talking about using Notty to dry out a Saison. I actually was discussing this/the Notty deal on another thread but somehow ended up on this one.
In any event, while we are talking about 2 different situations (pitching Notty from the start to ferment out versus drying out the Saison in my case) the bottom line is that the yeast did not work/do its job. After a week on the Notty the TG should have at least budged but it didn't. Meanwhile the 05 that I pitched after taking the Saison off of the Notty is working away. Montanaandy
Yes, I am talking about using Notty to dry out a Saison. I actually was discussing this/the Notty deal on another thread but somehow ended up on this one.
In any event, while we are talking about 2 different situations (pitching Notty from the start to ferment out versus drying out the Saison in my case) the bottom line is that the yeast did not work/do its job. After a week on the Notty the TG should have at least budged but it didn't. Meanwhile the 05 that I pitched after taking the Saison off of the Notty is working away. Montanaandy
With all DUE RESPECT, then how can you declare a yeast dead by not waiting past a window of time that IS PERFECTLY NORMAL? It's called lag time....Or who can you judge the yeast by using something faulty like an airlock to judge fermentation, when it has been proven time and again that many a beer ferments perfectly fine without airlock activity? If you haven't touched your fermenter in that 72 hours, then the beer is perfectly safe. Besides although it may appear to you that no activity is happenning, because you rely on airlocks, there is plenty of activity actually happeening, like the yeast are reproducing.......
The only way to truly know what is going on in your fermenter is with your hydrometer. Like I said here in my blog, which I encourage you to read, Think evaluation before action you sure as HELL wouldn't want a doctor to start cutting on you unless he used the proper diagnostic instuments like x-rays first, right? You wouldn't want him to just take a look in your eyes briefly and say "I'm cutting into your chest first thing in the morning." You would want them to use the right diagnostic tools before the slice and dice, right? You'd cry malpractice, I would hope, if they didn't say they were sending you for an MRI and other things before going in....
Doing anything like pitching more yeast without using the ONE TOOL that can tell you what's REALLY going on, is tantamount to the same thing.
I have to disagree with your premise. Difficulty with Saison yeasts is a common problem. Pitching another yeast to finish it out is a method that is inconsistent at best. You say you pitched US-05 and, since it is now bubbling that shows that the 05 worked and Notty did not. How do you know that your rousing the fermenter during you check didn't stir up the Notty or the Saison yeast and got one of them working again? You may well be correct, the US-05 is doing its job, but it may also be one of the other yeasts. If the point of this thread is to identify a problematic batch, if that is the case it needs to be identified, then I don't think your situation is an appropriate example of a problem with Notty. I think that's a fair point, but you may not agree.
stevedasleeve
Well-Known Member
Everyone seems to be getting all hot under the collar about this stuff.
Hey man it's a company, selling yeast, the yeast is acting different, we (I) are experiencing different behavior, we (I) are posting experiential information, others (you) are getting all pissed off because we are not reading and .. I don't know... adhering/having faith/respecting the "72 hours" supposition? Should there be some loyalty to this company because...?
I say chill out. We (I) are just sayin!
This packet of yeast is *not* acting the same as any other packet (of Nottingham yeast I have ever used.) and we (I) are likely to stop using it because we can (might) no longer be able to predict the result. Its the yeast that makes the beer right?!
xxx and hugs
Steve da sleeve
Hey man it's a company, selling yeast, the yeast is acting different, we (I) are experiencing different behavior, we (I) are posting experiential information, others (you) are getting all pissed off because we are not reading and .. I don't know... adhering/having faith/respecting the "72 hours" supposition? Should there be some loyalty to this company because...?
I say chill out. We (I) are just sayin!
This packet of yeast is *not* acting the same as any other packet (of Nottingham yeast I have ever used.) and we (I) are likely to stop using it because we can (might) no longer be able to predict the result. Its the yeast that makes the beer right?!
xxx and hugs
Steve da sleeve
Montanaandy
Well-Known Member
Shooter - the only Saison yeast that I have used are Wyeast 3272 and 3711. Wyeast 3724 is notorious for sticking around 1.020 when you use it prior to washing. Once you have washed it it works much more quickly and efficiently. The Saison in question is one in which I used Wyeast 3724 1st generation with a 2000ml starter.
Not sure where you base your statement that "pitching another yeast to finish it out is a method that is inconsistent at best." I have used Notty on 1st generation 3724 successfully in the past because of the aforementioned problem. By way of comparison, I have not had to use Notty when using Wyeast 3711 because that is a much different Saison yeast from 3724 and I normally reach TG after 2 weeks.
My assessment on the Notty that I recently used which I believe was dated 12/11 is based on a comparison of my previous experience using Notty to dry out Saison which was successful and which exhibited the characteristics of a yeast that is working versus my recent experience using Notty on this batch of Saison in which there was no activity at all after pitching the hydrated Notty - nothing - period. I checked the hydro sample and it did not change at all after roughly 1 week. Same recipe, same sticking point for 1st generation 3724 yeast yet vastly different results.
Frankly, I could care less whether you or anyone else agrees with my findings or not. That is not the point of my post. I am just posting to let others know that I too have had problems with what I believe to be the particular batch of Notty that others have reported problems with and that they are not imagining that there is/might be a problem with a particular lot of this yeast. Montanaandy
Not sure where you base your statement that "pitching another yeast to finish it out is a method that is inconsistent at best." I have used Notty on 1st generation 3724 successfully in the past because of the aforementioned problem. By way of comparison, I have not had to use Notty when using Wyeast 3711 because that is a much different Saison yeast from 3724 and I normally reach TG after 2 weeks.
My assessment on the Notty that I recently used which I believe was dated 12/11 is based on a comparison of my previous experience using Notty to dry out Saison which was successful and which exhibited the characteristics of a yeast that is working versus my recent experience using Notty on this batch of Saison in which there was no activity at all after pitching the hydrated Notty - nothing - period. I checked the hydro sample and it did not change at all after roughly 1 week. Same recipe, same sticking point for 1st generation 3724 yeast yet vastly different results.
Frankly, I could care less whether you or anyone else agrees with my findings or not. That is not the point of my post. I am just posting to let others know that I too have had problems with what I believe to be the particular batch of Notty that others have reported problems with and that they are not imagining that there is/might be a problem with a particular lot of this yeast. Montanaandy
Nobody is saying there absolutely isn't a problem. People are suggesting that there are many factors to be considered. It is important to keep these things in mind before jumping to any conclusions. I love how any more you bring up anything for consideration and suddenly everone's getting hot under the collar!
Anyone tried WLP039 Nottingham? Supposed to be the same yeast but liquid form. Yeah it wouldn't be as cheap, but since its liquid you could make a starter first... Just wondering. I'll probably pick up a vial next time I visit LHBS.
That's fine. I stand by my belief that repitching a yeast on a partially fermented batch may or may not result in a drop in FG. I'm really not trying to be contrary here just for the sake of it. I too would like to know if there is a problem with Notty, as I sometimes use the yeast as well. I feel that your particular situation is somewhat different than the ordinary fresh wort scenario. However, it appears that bringing up any possible opposing positions will not be tolerated in this thread so I'm out for now.
Well it seems I have this slow start yeast myself. The longest I have ever had a beer go before the airlock saw pressure was 48 hrs, and they have all at least bubbled some. Well this batch of nottingham (1080961099V exp. 12 2011) hadn't pressurized the airlock yet at 72 hrs, so I got a little worried. I peeled back the lid, and there was a shallow layer of froth on there and a nasty stench. I closed it up and went crap, "do I have some sort of infuction or what". I've used notty plenty, and don't ever remember that odor. Being the optomist that I am, I closed it up to let it ride. Now 5 days into this, it has finally lifted the airlock, but I haven't caught it bubbling. decided to check on the odor again, and it has now gone to "roast beefy".
Has anyone come up with any nasty flavors from this batch? I plan on letting this one go longer in the primary so if there are any off flavor's, hopefully it will clean itself up. BTW I have been fermenting this one at 70, to get the more fruity esters that notty can give on the upper end. That being said, I hope I don't end up over the top due to this being a "week" or "stressed" yeast.
Has anyone come up with any nasty flavors from this batch? I plan on letting this one go longer in the primary so if there are any off flavor's, hopefully it will clean itself up. BTW I have been fermenting this one at 70, to get the more fruity esters that notty can give on the upper end. That being said, I hope I don't end up over the top due to this being a "week" or "stressed" yeast.
Montanaandy
Well-Known Member
Has anyone come up with any nasty flavors from this batch? I plan on letting this one go longer in the primary so if there are any off flavor's, hopefully it will clean itself up. BTW I have been fermenting this one at 70, to get the more fruity esters that notty can give on the upper end. That being said, I hope I don't end up over the top due to this being a "week" or "stressed" yeast.
Didn't notice any nasty smells (smelled fine) and I didn't taste the sample before I pulled the wort off of the Notty after around 6 days or so. The Notty which at the bottom of the BB looked fine/normal and did not have any off odors. It basically sat on the bottom of the BB for 6 days and did absolutely nothing.
I pitched 05 after I transferred the wort into another 5 gal BB. Showed signs of activity shortly after picthcing. I rouse the BB once a day with the tennis ball underneath and the 05 starts churning like mad for a while and then subsides and then there is slow but steady activity in the airlock. Confident that the 05 will get my TG down into the single digits when I take a gravity reading this weekend. I know that my situation is different (drying out a Saison) but the fact of the matter is that the questionable Notty production lot did not work at all whereas the 05 did. Just a bad batch of Notty as far as I am concerned.
Didn't notice any nasty smells (smelled fine) and I didn't taste the sample before I pulled the wort off of the Notty after around 6 days or so. The Notty which at the bottom of the BB looked fine/normal and did not have any off odors. It basically sat on the bottom of the BB for 6 days and did absolutely nothing.
I pitched 05 after I transferred the wort into another 5 gal BB. Showed signs of activity shortly after picthcing. I rouse the BB once a day with the tennis ball underneath and the 05 starts churning like mad for a while and then subsides and then there is slow but steady activity in the airlock. Confident that the 05 will get my TG down into the single digits when I take a gravity reading this weekend. I know that my situation is different (drying out a Saison) but the fact of the matter is that the questionable Notty production lot did not work at all whereas the 05 did. Just a bad batch of Notty as far as I am concerned.
rodney
Active Member
Not sure if I'm having this problem or not, but my fermentation is not showing the normal signs. Will do a hydrometer reading tomorrow AM to see if I need to be concerned.
rodney
Active Member
Okay, it is fermenting, but very slowly. Since I am doing a big beer anyway (chocolate coffee stout, 1.076og) I decided to pitch another packet, since I thought I might have to anyway. Went with 05 this time.
mullenite
Well-Known Member
Just pitched another packet of this batch and the yeast is already multiplying. Fermentation should start in the next couple hours based on what I'm seeing.
dwarven_stout
Well-Known Member
Just used notty, same batch #, no problems. I'm going to go ahead and echo Shooter here:
rodney
Active Member
Well, 3 hours after pitching the 05, I am experiencing normal activity. That does not appear to be a coincidence to me, though I realize that I cannot prove that.
Maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle. Maybe the Notty works, but not as well as it ought to. That's possible, isn't it?
Maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle. Maybe the Notty works, but not as well as it ought to. That's possible, isn't it?
dwarven_stout
Well-Known Member
That is possible, and that's basically what happened last year when notty was acting up. That said, 3 hours is not usually enough lag time for a yeast to start up anyway. It's just as likely that the notty started up and you attributed it to the 05.
rodney
Active Member
Yeah, I had considered that, and it's certainly possible.
mullenite
Well-Known Member
Pitched 6 hours ago, the bucket lid is under pressure and, much to the displeasure of my cats, the blow off bucket is bubbling every few seconds.
That is two batches of beer brewed with this batch and no issues with an extra long lag period.
I'm not worried about this batch of yeast at all.
That is two batches of beer brewed with this batch and no issues with an extra long lag period.
I'm not worried about this batch of yeast at all.
OP
OP
RavenChief
Well-Known Member
After getting off to a unusually slow start (about 72 hours) fermentation looked normal. However, after 12 days I bottled my beer and the normal solid yeast cake I get with Nottingham was thin and runny. So I thought maybe this yeast is not really the Nottingham strain, but is something else altogeather or a mutation? Others have reported strange odors. Anyone else notice flocculation characteristics that don't match with Danstar Nottingham?
I bought a packet with this lot number and it didn't really foam up at all when I was proofing it. I added a packet of windsor I happened to have on hand on top of the notty and it started foaming up within 10 minutes or so. Not sure what is going on with this lot but I e-mailed danstar.
King of Cascade
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I have to agree with this In the 15 years that I have been brewing I have never had a lag time more then 24 hours. I build my yeast up from a slant and pitch at high krausen so I know it is active when it hits my wort. I couldnt imagine pitching more yeast after 72 hours then waiting another 72 hours to get it going thats almost a week.
Rover
Well-Known Member
I'm starting to think that this yeast might be very heat sensitive. I'm wondering that if the people (me included) who have had very slow starts ordered the yeast and it got to hot in the transit, and that's why we are seeing the inconstant lag times with so many brewers.
I just bought 4 packs of the Nottingham lot# from a LHBS here on vacation. When I get back I am going to leave one pack outside in the heat for a few days and hydrate three packs, one of which will be the one that I leave outside to mimic a shipping experience. The yeast I had problems with had no foam, and sank to the bottom in a weird mess, so it should be easy to see if that's where this is coming from.
We'll see what happens.
I just bought 4 packs of the Nottingham lot# from a LHBS here on vacation. When I get back I am going to leave one pack outside in the heat for a few days and hydrate three packs, one of which will be the one that I leave outside to mimic a shipping experience. The yeast I had problems with had no foam, and sank to the bottom in a weird mess, so it should be easy to see if that's where this is coming from.
We'll see what happens.
Rover
Well-Known Member
That's exactly how mine acted and smelled.
Thought I'd keep adding to the anecdotal evidence. Pitched another (rehydrated) pack from this lot last night. This morning (< 12 hrs later), foam and pressure are building.
On a side note, I've aerated these batches pretty well and that may be a factor in the good start times. First, I pour the cooled wort through a collader into my bottling bucket. Then, I use the spigot to drain from the bucket to the carboy, which is another 3 foot drop. Might be a procedure that helps if you're not having luck with the usual shake the carboy technique.
mullenite
Well-Known Member
I should also point out that I aerate well using an aquarium air pump with a diffusion stone.
Paramecium
Well-Known Member
Used this batch on my brew Sunday, bubbling hard less than 12 hours later. I aerate hard with oxygen and an air stone so maybe that does seem to be playing a role.
you all aerate prior to pitching correct? I have another packet of this lot on hand, and my next 5 gallons is going to be a simple cream ale of 6# 2 row, 3# minute rice, lightly hopped with hallertauer. I'll plan on pitching this lot again, unless my first one tastes like total a$$ Might be a while yet though, football season is here, (I coach 5-6 grade) and when I do end up with some free time, SWMBO may want me to focus my time elswhere!:cross:
Also, If I was to add some carapils to the above grain bill to get some improved head retention, how much would you suggest?
Thanks in advance!
Might be a while yet though, football season is here, (I coach 5-6 grade) and when I do end up with some free time, SWMBO may want me to focus my time elswhere!:cross:Also, If I was to add some carapils to the above grain bill to get some improved head retention, how much would you suggest?Thanks in advance!
Rover
Well-Known Member
I do the same thing but I pour back and forth about six times till the foam is at the top of my primary.
stevedasleeve
Well-Known Member
I just pitched the same lot & exp and the yeast did smell a bit beefy. Also it did not cream up (like my last batch did not.) I am slightly worried now. I will wait a few days...
stevedasleeve
Well-Known Member
lalnx what happened to your brew? Did the smell persist, did fermentation complete appropriately? I got an email from Danstar and I emailed back my last findings and asked them for an address so I could send back a packet I have, same lot same exp + the empty one I used. I am not sure I want to risk this batch to find out if all is OK but might just pitch some S-04 I have. Depends on lalnx's experience maybe?
Rover
Well-Known Member
What did they say in their email to you?
Well I'm feeling a little better now, 12 days in, it has just a little yeast on top left to fall, smells like it should, I think it is done, I'm going to give it the rest of the week to clean up and completely floc out, then either bottle or just transfer to carboy. Maybe I'll have a couple friends over and empty a keg of wit that is begging for it
then I can skip that whole bottle thing. Either way, the end of the week I'll hydro and taste.
stevedasleeve
Well-Known Member
"Hello Steve,
I was pretty sure to have answered you, but actually may be not, sorry for that.
This batch of Nottingham (#1087117102) had been testing fine to date unlike the recalled batch from a few months ago, but things can happen along the way to you that could have damaged the yeast.
Thanks to give me your address and I will send you a new sachet.
Sorry for the inconvenience it caused you.
Best regards"
stevedasleeve
Well-Known Member
Well I'll give this 3 days then. I am not terribly enthusiastic about this recent change in the yeasts behavior. I think I'll go back to S-05 and S-04 and maybe even infrequent liquid yeasts and starters (what a pain.) I hate stressing over this. My brewing life is generally 1. brew, 2. let Nottingham take over for a few weeks, and 3. keg or bottle. No worries no stress I don't check nothin' for at least 2 weeks and I consistently make the best beer I have every tasted!
Oh well...
!
Clayton
Well-Known Member
this thread is still going??
Toecutter
Well-Known Member
I got 2 buckets brewing right now with nottingham. Both started with vigor about 18 hours after pitching. This stuff tears through a fermentation, always finishes for me about 3 days after pitching.
