badgerheaven
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What makes a New England IPA Juicy? Is it an addition of some kind or just the citrusy hops ?
Neipa
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pursuit0fhoppiness
GTA Brews club member, pharma technologist
Just a lot of hops. And flaked oats or even flour to give it a hazy look.
TravelingLight
Well-Known Member
The "juiciness" described in NEIPAs usually comes from, IMO, the hops and the lower bitterness. They're usually lower in IBUs than "standard" IPAs. And they usually have higher amounts of sulfate and chloride to give them a fuller, rounder, softer mouthfeel. The haze doesn't contribute to the juiciness, AFAIK.
Biscuits
Well-Known Member
This may be the worst thing I have ever heard. I'm sorry, I have backed out of this thread several times in attempt to "bite my tongue" so to speak...but there is much more to making a good NEIPA than "Just a lot of hops"...and let me tell you...anyone who ads flour to their beer, doesn't have a clue what they're doing.
There are many factors that make NEIPA's "juicy" and while a solid recipe is definitely key...the major player is process.
The haze is not from flour or yeast in suspension, it is a process driven result.
If you want a juicy NEIPA it comes down to late ho additions and your dry hopping schedule...sure some flaked oats will help, but I see all too many times people adding like 25% flaked oats and it is just overkill...but I digress.
If you try just throwing a bunch of hops into a recipe, without the proper hop schedule and dry hop procedure, I can almost guarantee you end up with something borderline undrinkable.
TravelingLight
Well-Known Member
I totally agree. I almost mentioned that as well but decided to bite my tongue.
I typically get NEIPA results via hop stands, and avoiding Irish Moss or Whirlflock. I had never even heard of NEIPAs until after I had been basically making them for years.
I have a beer in the basement that I'll probably keg today, pretty much matches the style. I'm no expert, so go easy on me:
Besides two-row, it has a bit of flaked oats, some carapils, and 60L.
5-gallon batch:
1 oz of Centennial for 60 minutes.
After boiling, I used an immersion chiller to get down to 170° F, then removed the chiller.
Added 5 oz of Kent Goldings (got them for free right off a friend's bine), put the lid back on, then let it sit for 20 minutes.
Put the chiller back in, drop to pitching temps, aerate, pitch.
Wait for attenuation to finish. About five to seven days.
Transfer off the yeast to a new vessel (lots of people will argue with that, I don't care. I am sensitive to yeast flavors, and to me, transferring helps drop out those characteristics sooner.)
Drop 2 oz of Centennial.
Wait 7 days.
Drop another 2 oz of Centennial (can you tell I like Centennial??)
Wait for hops to drop out of suspension, or chill the beer to force it.
Keg it. It'll be pretty cloudy for the first week or so. Pure hop juice happiness.
I have a beer in the basement that I'll probably keg today, pretty much matches the style. I'm no expert, so go easy on me:
Besides two-row, it has a bit of flaked oats, some carapils, and 60L.
5-gallon batch:
1 oz of Centennial for 60 minutes.
After boiling, I used an immersion chiller to get down to 170° F, then removed the chiller.
Added 5 oz of Kent Goldings (got them for free right off a friend's bine), put the lid back on, then let it sit for 20 minutes.
Put the chiller back in, drop to pitching temps, aerate, pitch.
Wait for attenuation to finish. About five to seven days.
Transfer off the yeast to a new vessel (lots of people will argue with that, I don't care. I am sensitive to yeast flavors, and to me, transferring helps drop out those characteristics sooner.)
Drop 2 oz of Centennial.
Wait 7 days.
Drop another 2 oz of Centennial (can you tell I like Centennial??)
Wait for hops to drop out of suspension, or chill the beer to force it.
Keg it. It'll be pretty cloudy for the first week or so. Pure hop juice happiness.
pursuit0fhoppiness
GTA Brews club member, pharma technologist
Believe me I've never added flour to my beer either but have heard of others doing it. And when I said "a lot of hops", I figured it was implied there is a specific schedule for them, obviously not just all added at once, I just didn't elaborate. I don't believe my original answer was wrong, I guess it just wasn't as complete as it should have been. Sorry to cause you some stress, and good luck to the OP if you're brewing one soon.
eastcoastbrewer
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Have a read through here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=568046
Also the 1418 post seems to be pretty much on the money. Braufessor has some great stuff to say. Theres 500+ pages to read through. Should be enough to keep you occupied for a while haha Good luck!
Also the 1418 post seems to be pretty much on the money. Braufessor has some great stuff to say. Theres 500+ pages to read through. Should be enough to keep you occupied for a while haha Good luck!
I've heard that too!
I wonder what the result of that tastes like? I heard flour mentioned on a few popular podcasts that I listen to, and the shows are independent of one another. I've actually never seen a NEIPA on the shelf. I live in Oregon, and it just hasn't caught on. I only know what I've learned through home brewers.
Seven Brides Brewery down the road from me has sold floral, hazy IPAs for a while, but they never use NEIPA as a description.
Biscuits
Well-Known Member
Believe me I've never added flour to my beer either but have heard of others doing it. And when I said "a lot of hops", I figured it was implied there is a specific schedule for them, obviously not just all added at once, I just didn't elaborate. I don't believe my original answer was wrong, I guess it just wasn't as complete as it should have been. Sorry to cause you some stress, and good luck to the OP if you're brewing one soon.
I hope I didn't come off like an ass...I usually do but I don't mean to. This forum is, to me, one of the places where you need to be detailed with your answers because there is so much misinformation or altogether bad information being passed around...to a novice brewer who may not have known that adding flour isn't how NEIPAs are made and that tossing in a bunch of hops to their water and flour mixture wouldn't make beer, I think it's important to elaborate
First, don't get caught up in the hazy aspect. It's a side effect of the process, not the goal.
I really emphasize late addition hops...lots of em...at 5 mins, FO and WP. The first dry hop addition should come after the heavy fermentation, but while there's still some active fermentation happening. The big whirlpool additions and the early dry hop addition ensure there's hops during the entire fermentation. This seems to capture the hop oils in suspension and makes the beer really juicy...especially with the right hops (look for citrusy and tropical fruity hops).
Also, more chloride than sulfate is good. Sulfate emphasizes the hops, but using more chloride than sulfate allows you to dial up the hop flavor with quantity and still get a soft juicy mouthfeel instead of a dry sharp experience.
I usually shoot for 150ppm chloride and 70 ppm sulfate. Starting with RO water and adding calcium chloride and gypsum to achieve those numbers will result in a nice water profile.
I did a recipe with zero flaked oats and zero flaked wheat...still hazy and the haze didn't drop out even after 6 weeks. I didn't care if it was or stayed hazy, just pointing out that it's more the process than the ingredients. NO FLOUR!
I really emphasize late addition hops...lots of em...at 5 mins, FO and WP. The first dry hop addition should come after the heavy fermentation, but while there's still some active fermentation happening. The big whirlpool additions and the early dry hop addition ensure there's hops during the entire fermentation. This seems to capture the hop oils in suspension and makes the beer really juicy...especially with the right hops (look for citrusy and tropical fruity hops).
Also, more chloride than sulfate is good. Sulfate emphasizes the hops, but using more chloride than sulfate allows you to dial up the hop flavor with quantity and still get a soft juicy mouthfeel instead of a dry sharp experience.
I usually shoot for 150ppm chloride and 70 ppm sulfate. Starting with RO water and adding calcium chloride and gypsum to achieve those numbers will result in a nice water profile.
I did a recipe with zero flaked oats and zero flaked wheat...still hazy and the haze didn't drop out even after 6 weeks. I didn't care if it was or stayed hazy, just pointing out that it's more the process than the ingredients. NO FLOUR!
I agree with hwk. The timing of the hop additions are important as well as the grain bill but the water additions really are what gives that juicy mouthfeel. Like hwk said 150ppm chloride is a good starting point for Neipas.
You know i gotta say, I've had heady topper just recently and i find it hard to classify it as a NEIPA. Its more like a normal ipa to me. I classify NEIPAs as something completely different in my head, but that is just me
I have a hard time keeping mine hazy. Option A) exorbitant hopping rates (we're talking 1.5-2 lbs of hops in a 5 gallon batch). Option B) gratuitous flaked grains. Option C) is stupidly high chloride. I've had success with option A but it's expensive. I'm working with option C at the moment. Option B hasn't worked, still drops clear in weeks.
It's all hop selection and process. I only use enough boil hops to mitigate boilover risk (like 10 IBUs of a clean bittering hop) and everything else is whirlpool and multiple dry hop additons. My normal NEIPA is heavy Citra and El Dorado with supplemental Simcoe. Any fruity tropical hop will do. Dry hopping during fermentation is key (I dry hop 3 days in after high krausen). And then minimal oxygen exposure after pitching (ideally zero if possible), including when dry hopping (either positive CO2 pressure or slurry hopping).
It's all hop selection and process. I only use enough boil hops to mitigate boilover risk (like 10 IBUs of a clean bittering hop) and everything else is whirlpool and multiple dry hop additons. My normal NEIPA is heavy Citra and El Dorado with supplemental Simcoe. Any fruity tropical hop will do. Dry hopping during fermentation is key (I dry hop 3 days in after high krausen). And then minimal oxygen exposure after pitching (ideally zero if possible), including when dry hopping (either positive CO2 pressure or slurry hopping).
I like 150ppm chloride as well (I leave sulfate at ~30ppm as is in my water supply) from a character perspective. I'm experimenting with 300ppm chloride to see if that helps (at the rec of some other brewers I respect).
Shwagger
Well-Known Member
Skip the Irish moss, and add all your hops late.
I only used a total of 10oz in the 5-gallon batch I mentioned earlier in this thread. I’m drinking it right now, and this is juicier than anything I’ve had in my entire life. I prefer this to anything off the shelf.
Yeah, as I said in my previous post, I used some flaked oats. It totally helps with mouth feel, which helps on head-retention, which helps on aromatics, which helps on perceived hop levels. Here's what it looks like after being on CO2 for two days:
Some lacing for ya
Yep, flaked oats and wheat and almost entirely late hops.
Mine always start hazy, but drop clear in ~3 weeks.
Juicy isn't the problem. Character is all there. Fruit juice and soft feel. Just the haze.
At the end of the day, most off the shelf (the legends included) will clear up with time (and I don't buy anyone saying otherwise who's not adding flour, which does happen but is ludicrous). I will not stoop to artificially clouding mine. However trying to increase the time it stays cloudy. Hell I might start going the Weizen route and see if inverting the keg helps.
Your kegs last three weeks?!
ipe: With my brother-in-law's help, my hazy IPAs usually last me about 10 days.
I guess mine might clear up if I had them that long too, but I'll never know!
Check out post#6 on the first page of this thread.
Biscuits
Well-Known Member
I will leave the amounts and type of hops to you...but what works really well for me is to do two dry hop charges. One at say 48 hours into fermentation or after the most active part but before it stops/slows too much. Then add the second charge 3 days before cold crash.
A few pics for reference:
I haven't tried this yet but it's an interesting read. In a nutshell, he is suggesting that you will get better permanent haze by omitting the flaked wheat altogether. The reason being; much of the haze is created by polyphenols and "the higher the percentage of unmalted wheat in the beer, the fewer measured polyphenols, likely from gluten proteins removing them."
http://scottjanish.com/researching-new-england-ipa-neipa-haze/
Flaked or malted wheat hasn't made a perceptible impact to me either way.
Damn my good brewing practices producing bright beers!
Lol
motosapiens
Well-Known Member
i don't really care about the haze. i get haze that lasts a month or two, but I'm not trying to have haze, and the beer tastes just as good when it finally brightens up. I use london esb yeast, and gradually raise the ferm temp from 67 to 73 (1 degree a day). I add the first round of dry hops 48 hrs after pitching the yeast, when the gravity is down to 1.020-1.025.
to address the original question, I think the 'juicy' description is a combination of hop flavors and mouthfeel. wheat or oats helps give a thicker mouthfeel, and lots of late (and dry) additions of juicy hops helps with the fruitiness. I have used citra, el dorado, amarillo and ekuanot. This year I got some galaxy as well.
a few years ago before I got a thermostat control, i accidentally left the heat jacket on an india red ale overnight during secondary fermentation and warmed it up to high 70's or 80. That beer never cleared (although it tasted fine), which makes me wonder if higher ferm temps might have something to do with the haze.
to address the original question, I think the 'juicy' description is a combination of hop flavors and mouthfeel. wheat or oats helps give a thicker mouthfeel, and lots of late (and dry) additions of juicy hops helps with the fruitiness. I have used citra, el dorado, amarillo and ekuanot. This year I got some galaxy as well.
a few years ago before I got a thermostat control, i accidentally left the heat jacket on an india red ale overnight during secondary fermentation and warmed it up to high 70's or 80. That beer never cleared (although it tasted fine), which makes me wonder if higher ferm temps might have something to do with the haze.
Is it possible some of these breweries may actually be adding a protein/polyphenol mix to achieve haze?
http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?66491-Packaging-NE-Style-IPAs
I know that certain hipstery breweries are adding small amounts of flour, which like polyphenol haze, starch haze tends to be permanent. Protein hazes last a while too.
I hadn't heard of deliberately adding polyphenols but that's something to look into.
That said I'm generally of the "haze is a byproduct not a goal" mindset. Sad thing is that others immediately judge a NEIPA by haze even if everything else lines up. Boohoohoo it's not hazy enough boohoo.
DarthBrewer1
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I aggree with a few posts. Flour and Oats are not needs. Its all in the yeast and hop schedule and water profile. I tend to use a British Yeast that has a higher gravity.
All hops are added at flame out and whirlpool. So you have to add a ton to hit your IBU. In addition you need to dryhop during active fermentation (around 36hrs) high krausen to achieve proper biotransformation. Then add a second dryhop once fermentation is over. Boil to Keg around 14 days.
With the water add for high CLCO(125-150) and low S04
All hops are added at flame out and whirlpool. So you have to add a ton to hit your IBU. In addition you need to dryhop during active fermentation (around 36hrs) high krausen to achieve proper biotransformation. Then add a second dryhop once fermentation is over. Boil to Keg around 14 days.
With the water add for high CLCO(125-150) and low S04
SlitheryDee
General Manager
I made something that looked NEIPAish a few months back, but I'm not sure that it qualifies. It had flaked wheat in it because I had some lying around. I used only late and dry hops, but not really in enough quantity for me to think it was really an IPA. Still, the damn thing didn't clear in two months in the fridge and the hop flavor dominated it. It wasn't bad really.
Biscuits
Well-Known Member
In my opinion, the biotransformation hops (first hop charge while still fermenting) is what maintains the haze. I took great effort in not drinking it all and letting some sit in the keg for 4+ weeks and it never cleared. I believe the pictures I posted above were a few weeks apart and I just floated this keg last weekend and the last pours were maybe only slightly less hazy.
*Edit: I'd like to also mention that I have made hazy IPAs without any flaked oats/barley and I have used high flocc yeasts...all stayed milk-hazy throughout their time in the keg....granted some of them only last two weeks.,
*Edit: I'd like to also mention that I have made hazy IPAs without any flaked oats/barley and I have used high flocc yeasts...all stayed milk-hazy throughout their time in the keg....granted some of them only last two weeks.,
I agree. I submitted one of these to one of those local brewery contests last month and it actually won the grand prize which includes brewing a batch at the brewery. But, it ended up dropping more clear than I experienced with some previous batches (different recipes though). I sat down with the brewer and one of the judges to go over the recipe and they felt the same way: "how much do you really ding a beer for being too clear?".
The unfortunate thing is I'm a newb with entering contests so in attempt to communicate the style with the judges, I named it Hazi McHazerson when I registered it which was well before it was brewed. Obviously a name like that sets a certain expectation. If I thought for a minute the beer might actually win, I would have thought that out better
. I just figured entering would force me to finally get out that beergun that has been sitting in the box for years.So far, the most persistent haze I got so far came from a batch with no flaked oats (didn't have them on hand). It did have 13% flaked wheat though and I thought the mouthfeel was great. It started off straight murky but after a few pours ended up with a nice haze that persisted through the keg. Below you can see the difference between that first pour and the remainder of the keg.
BTW, I noticed that title in your sig block. Congrats on that! And it's nice to hear that the haze isn't that important from you. Maybe if/when they write it into the next edition of the guidelines, haze might be listed as "acceptable" rather than "necessary".
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I agree. I submitted one of these to one of those local brewery contests last month and it actually won the grand prize which includes brewing a batch at the brewery. But, it ended up dropping more clear than I experienced with some previous batches (different recipes though). I sat down with the brewer and one of the judges to go over the recipe and they felt the same way: "how much do you really ding a beer for being too clear?".
The unfortunate thing is I'm a newb with entering contests so in attempt to communicate the style with the judges, I named it Hazy McHazerson when I registered it which was well before it was brewed. Obviously a name like that sets a certain expectation. If I thought for a minute the beer might actually win, I would have thought that out better
So far, the most persistent haze I got so far came from a batch with no flaked oats (didn't have them on hand). It did have 13% flaked wheat though and I thought the mouthfeel was great. It started off straight murky but after a few pours ended up with a nice haze that persisted through the keg. Below you can see the difference between that first pour and the remainder of the keg.
BTW, I noticed that title in your sig block. Congrats on that! And it's nice to hear that the haze isn't that important from you. Maybe if/when they write it into the next edition of the guidelines, haze might be listed as "acceptable" rather than "necessary".
Eh. Haze is a hallmark and should be there. It's 3 points though. As far as comps go, far from the end of the world.
Problem is that while appearance is minor for comps, it's not for the average drinker. In most cases it makes clear beer important. In this case, it makes haze important. "People eat with their eyes". I understand why some brewers artificially haze it.
I use about 20% malted wheat (not flaked) amd 6% flaked oats in mine.
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