NEIPA recipe ?'s and body issue

[jmyers04]

Awhile back I brewed a NEIPA and thought it was good but was lacking....from the commercial examples compared to mine, seemed it lacked body, "thickness" and lacked some sweetness. I want my next one to be more "juice like". Hard to describe but hope you understand. I have made some tweaks and was wondering if this would get me closer to what I want. Original recipe:

11 lbs pale 2 row
1.5 lbs white wheat
1.5 lbs flaked oats
7 oz honey malt
I figure the hop schedule doesn't play a huge part in the things I think my first beer lacked I wont waste time with it. Although to note I did dry hop during active fermentation and then after it was done. SO normal dry hopping to style as I have read. Water adjustments on the first beer: I started with RO water and added 1 tsp calcium chloride and 1/2 tsp gypsum. This was a 5.25 gallon batch. I brew BIAB single infusion and mashed at 152 for 90 min. Boiled for 60 min. I used wyeast 1318.

The changes I have made to my next one: (wanting to know if these changes will help)
10 lbs pale 2 row
2 lbs white wheat
2 lbs flaked oats
10 oz honey malt
I am going to mash at 154 this time.....Is 154 too high not high enough?
Should I be doing anything different to my water?
Using a different yeast this time (OMEGA farmhouses IPA blend) new I believe but supposed to be a blend of these hazy IPA yeasts.
Any input would be great......sorry for the lost post!

 

[TheHopfather]

What was the total volume of water that you mashed with? I'm curious to see if I can figure out what sort of water profile you created. Using tsp as a measurement is horribly inaccurate BTW, weight would be more helpful. Did you use acid? Do you know your mash pH?

Do you have SG and FG readings for the batch? Off the top of head all I can really see is that you mashed at 152F for 90 min. That is going to dry your beer out. If you are looking for juicy shoot for an FG between 1.015 ~ 1.020. You want some residual sweetness left in the beer to help with the body and to help with that juicy flavor.

Hop schedule is pretty darn important in this style. I'd include it if you want feedback.

 

[jmyers04]

Since its single infusion BIAB we started with 8 gallons....? I am at work and don't have access to my exact notes but I know its pretty close. I use beersmith so it tells me the amount of water to start with. I have not been brewing all grain for a super long time so this was the first time that I didn't just us RO Water. I have lactic acid but I didn't use it on that beer. I was semi following steps from a recipe I saw online and the tsp measurements for those both is what it had. It did not say to use acid. So to answer your question I am not sure what the PH was. As far as hops go....not to sound like a jerk but I believe my hop schedule was fine....didn't think I needed to take a long post and make it longer. If the hops is what gets the beer to have a better body and more juicy feel then I guess I should post it. I get from your response that 152 isn't high enough of a mash temp..... I don't think my beer was that far off of what I want it to be....I am questioning my grains, mash temp, and water is another part. I don't really have a grasp on water at the moment.

Hops:
1 oz of citra, mosaic and galaxy at 5 min
1 oz of citra, mosaic and galaxy at 170 F whirlpool for 20 min
Dry hop #1 on day 3 (still krausen) 2 oz citra and 1 oz mosaic and galaxy
Dry hop #2 -same dry hop amounts as above but after fermentation was complete

 

[murphyslaw]

I'm trying to improve body in my NEIPAs, too. I've tried 25% wheat/oats but that hasn't done it. I'm going to try adding 10% carafoam (not carapils). I also mash at 156.

 

[jmyers04]

So the changes I made in my grain bill.....will they help or hurt from the original bill or just be somewhat similar do you think?

 

[TheHopfather]

You don't sound like a jerk, its just nice to be able to rule out hops as a possible issue. Looks like standard amounts for a NE IPA so I think you can focus on grain bill and water going forward.

My quick calculations show you were shooting for about 1.067 SG? 90 min mash at 152F, and assuming 80% attenuation, should put the finished beer around 1.012 and 7.3% ABV? Now guesstimating 1 tsp = 4.2g your finished water profile would have ended up around Ca - 68, SO4 - 40 & Cl - 93.

So a couple of things that stand out for you to try. Raise your mash temp and cut down the mash time. I'd shoot for 156F on the next batch for 60 min. Just making that one change makes Beersmith pop out 1.016 SG and 6.8% ABV, which is more inline for a NE IPA FG, you don't want it too dry.

Secondly, I'd focus more on total amounts of salts rather than the ratio of the salts. My normal NE IPA is Cl - 150 ppm & SO4-75 ppm. I just brewed one, that I haven't tasted yet, that was Cl - 300 ppm & SO4 - 100 ppm just to see how it tastes / feels. So you are a little light on the salts in my opinion. Don't be scared of the chloride!

Finally, Bru'N Water has your pH at 5.57. That's close, but a tad bit high. I'd be more comfortable with that pH being 5.4 personally. Everything else remaining the same, that would take 2.4 mL of lactic acid to bring down.

 

[TheHopfather]

So the changes I made in my grain bill.....will they help or hurt from the original bill or just be somewhat similar do you think?

I've never gone higher than 20% of my grain bill being oats/wheat, I can't really comment on what it will do. I've never had an issue with body going with the 20% you've already got. Personally I'd focus on mash temps, salt additions and pH before going heavier on the oats.

 

[jmyers04]

You don't sound like a jerk, its just nice to be able to rule out hops as a possible issue. Looks like standard amounts for a NE IPA so I think you can focus on grain bill and water going forward.

My quick calculations show you were shooting for about 1.067 SG? 90 min mash at 152F, and assuming 80% attenuation, should put the finished beer around 1.012 and 7.3% ABV? Now guesstimating 1 tsp = 4.2g your finished water profile would have ended up around Ca - 68, SO4 - 40 & Cl - 93.

So a couple of things that stand out for you to try. Raise your mash temp and cut down the mash time. I'd shoot for 156F on the next batch for 60 min. Just making that one change makes Beersmith pop out 1.016 SG and 6.8% ABV, which is more inline for a NE IPA SG, you don't want it too dry.

Secondly, I'd focus more on total amounts of salts rather than the ratio of the salts. My normal NE IPA is Cl - 150 ppm & SO4-75 ppm. I just brewed one, that I haven't tasted yet, that was Cl - 300 ppm & SO4 - 100 ppm just to see how it tastes / feels. So you are a little light on the salts in my opinion. Don't be scared of the chloride!

Finally, Bru'N Water has your pH at 5.57. That's close, but a tad bit high. I'd be more comfortable with that pH being 5.4 personally. Everything else remaining the same, that would take 2.4 mL of lactic acid to bring down.

How does the changed grain bill look? All of your numbers there from off the top of my head are close for sure. I will have to figure out bru n water. I have never used it. What is your reasoning for mashing for 60 instead of 90? We have always mashed for 90. Just curious. Your numbers above off my original recipe or changed one?

 

[TheHopfather]

Everything is off of your original, I think that grain bill looks fine.

I'd recommend a 60 min mash simply because in my experience a 90 min mash leads to greater attenuation and a drier beer. I think a lot of your body problem is simply down to the beer finishing too low.

 

[jmyers04]

Everything is off of your original, I think that grain bill looks fine.

I'd recommend a 60 min mash simply because in my experience a 90 min mash leads to greater attenuation and a drier beer. I think a lot of your body problem is simply down to the beer finishing too low.

So I think I will try this (let me know how this looks):
10 lbs pale 2 row (only ordered 10 for this one)
2 lbs white wheat
1.5 lbs flaked oats
7 oz honey malt

Missing 1/2 lb of total grains from the original...problem?

hop schedule the same as before.
mash at 156 for 60 min

What if I did 5 grams CaCl and 4 grams Gypsum? with the 2.4 ml of acid you mentioned?

 

[jmyers04]

Everything is off of your original, I think that grain bill looks fine.

I'd recommend a 60 min mash simply because in my experience a 90 min mash leads to greater attenuation and a drier beer. I think a lot of your body problem is simply down to the beer finishing too low.

And does the lactic acid go in as the mash water is heating up as well or do you wait until the mash is going and check it then add it? Sorry, really not familiar with water. Really need to dial that in.

 

[TheHopfather]

So I think I will try this (let me know how this looks):
10 lbs pale 2 row (only ordered 10 for this one)
2 lbs white wheat
1.5 lbs flaked oats
7 oz honey malt

Missing 1/2 lb of total grains from the original...problem?

hop schedule the same as before.
mash at 156 for 60 min

What if I did 5 grams CaCl and 4 grams Gypsum? with the 2.4 ml of acid you mentioned?

Changes look fine, that'll put your flaked oats and wheat at 25% of the grain bill. I would go with 3.9g of SO4 and 6.9g of CaCl2. That would give you a water profile of Ca - 114, SO4 - 74 and Cl - 151 with a pH of 5.46 without adding any acid.

Keep in mind that I don't know your actual water amounts so I'm just giving you a best guess, should be close though.

If you are adding acid you just add it to the mash water as it it heating up. I add my salts and acid and give it a good stir as everything is coming up to temp.

 

[jmyers04]

Changes look fine, that'll put your flaked oats and wheat at 25% of the grain bill. I would go with 3.9g of SO4 and 6.9g of CaCl2. That would give you a water profile of Ca - 114, SO4 - 74 and Cl - 151 with a pH of 5.46 without adding any acid.

Keep in mind that I don't know your actual water amounts so I'm just giving you a best guess, should be close though.

If you are adding acid you just add it to the mash water as it it heating up. I add my salts and acid and give it a good stir as everything is coming up to temp.

I can get an exact water amount when I get home and can get in front of BeerSmith.......thank you for all your help. This is about the most I have taken out of a conversation on here. Not to dismiss any other help I have gotten. But again, thank you. Always learning!

 

[murphyslaw]

IMO, it's not as simple as water chemistry and a 156 mash temp. Don't get me wrong, that gets me a delicious beer with medium bodied a nice soft mouthfeel. But if you're looking for a Julius-like fullness, I don't think that will get you there. At least it hasn't for me.


That's not to say that hopfather is wrong. Quite the opposite. His advice on the water chemistry is spot on and will help you get that soft mouthfeel. But if it's the fullness you're after, I think it's going to take something else. My best guess right now is 10% carafoam, but I've read mixed results with that.

Check out scottjanish.com. He has two or three beer study posts about NEIPA mouthfeel that are really interesting.

Whatever you try, don't forget to report back! Good luck!

 

[jmyers04]

IMO, it's not as simple as water chemistry and a 156 mash temp. Don't get me wrong, that gets me a delicious beer with medium bodied a nice soft mouthfeel. But if you're looking for a Julius-like fullness, I don't think that will get you there. At least it hasn't for me.


That's not to say that hopfather is wrong. Quite the opposite. His advice on the water chemistry is spot on and will help you get that soft mouthfeel. But if it's the fullness you're after, I think it's going to take something else. My best guess right now is 10% carafoam, but I've read mixed results with that.

Check out scottjanish.com. He has two or three beer study posts about NEIPA mouthfeel that are really interesting.

Whatever you try, don't forget to report back! Good luck!

What would I be missing? I think that fullness or something close is what I am after.

 

[jmyers04]

I cant get his website to load on my computer or my phone....seems to be an issue with his site.

 

[murphyslaw]

What would I be missing? I think that fullness or something close is what I am after.

I wish I knew!

I've made a couple NEIPAs and they've been delicious. Friends loved them. Kegs kick faster than anything I've ever made. Entered one in a competition last month and it scored well. The judge's comments confirmed my own thoughts on the mouthfeel--medium body and soft.

I was psyched about how good that last one tasted. Around the same time that beer was ready I went back to tree house. The beer was incredible as always, particularly the Julius on draft. But man, it crushed my spirits! That fullness!

 

[murphyslaw]

I cant get his website to load on my computer or my phone....seems to be an issue with his site.

Same here. Try again later. I don't know see why it would come down. He's opening a brewery with Mike Tonsmeire (the mad fermentationist) not far from me.

 

[TheHopfather]

I wish I knew!

I've made a couple NEIPAs and they've been delicious. Friends loved them. Kegs kick faster than anything I've ever made. Entered one in a competition last month and it scored well. The judge's comments confirmed my own thoughts on the mouthfeel--medium body and soft.

I was psyched about how good that last one tasted. Around the same time that beer was ready I went back to tree house. The beer was incredible as always, particularly the Julius on draft. But man, it crushed my spirits! That fullness!

The BYO clone of Julius has Carapils in the grain bill so you might be on to something. The OP said his NEIPA was close to what he was looking for and just wanted some more fullness, not that he wanted to clone Julius.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/julius-clone-byo-magazine.599789/

I find that hop oils lend a lot to that full, thick feeling. Maybe try a batch with an obscene amount of hops in it and see if that does it?

 

[murphyslaw]

The BYO clone of Julius has Carapils in the grain bill so you might be on to something. The OP said his NEIPA was close to what he was looking for and just wanted some more fullness, not that he wanted to clone Julius.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/julius-clone-byo-magazine.599789/

I find that hop oils lend a lot to that full, thick feeling. Maybe try a batch with an obscene amount of hops in it and see if that does it?

Hop oils helping the mouthfeel isn't something I had considered. Interesting...


Lately I've been convinced by some articles that carapils doesn't really affect body, but that carafoam might. Who knows!?

 

[jmyers04]

Changes look fine, that'll put your flaked oats and wheat at 25% of the grain bill. I would go with 3.9g of SO4 and 6.9g of CaCl2. That would give you a water profile of Ca - 114, SO4 - 74 and Cl - 151 with a pH of 5.46 without adding any acid.

Keep in mind that I don't know your actual water amounts so I'm just giving you a best guess, should be close though.

If you are adding acid you just add it to the mash water as it it heating up. I add my salts and acid and give it a good stir as everything is coming up to temp.

Well brew day is over for this beer. Everything seemed to go fairly smoothly. I was low on my OG for sure. I wonder if the 25% oats and wheat did it? I wonder with that much of those if a little over 60 min mash was needed? I got high 60's for efficiency. I have always hovered around 70. I may need to start having the grains double milled? I squeeze the bag pretty good so I guess double mill. I suppose with being low on my OG the FG will be lower as well maybe not achieving what I was after. Hope it still makes a good beer. Was looking around a 7% ABV and now it looks like high 5's. Frustrating none the less. Took all the steps or so I thought.

 

[brew703]

I've read somewhere that some brewers are using Lactose in their NEIPA's. Maybe it was on beer advocate or a podcast i was listening to. I personally haven't tried it yet but may consider whenever I brew another NEIPA.