Negative effects of <60 min. boil?

[JiveTurkey]

Is there any difference in a shorter boil vs. a standard 60-minute boil--EXCEPT lower hop utilization?

I'm doing an extract+specialty grains batch. 5 gallon batch. 3 gallon boil. Half the extract up front, the other half at knock-out.

To get the same ~17.5 IBUs, I can either do:

1) 1 oz of hops @ 60 mins, and .5 oz @ 10 mins, or
2) 1 oz @ 35 mins, and 1 oz @ 10 mins.

I imagine that for either schedule, the initial additions are boiled long enough that only bitterness and no flavor will be extracted. So, the only difference I see is that schedule #2 would impart greater flavor and a little more aroma. Also, schedule #2 takes more hops (which is not a concern for me because the LHBS sells whole hops in 2 oz bags and I wouldn't have any uses for the remaining .5 oz in schedule #1).

Aside from hops being affected as in the above, is there any difference in doing #2? Could it actually be an advantage in that Maillard Reactions would be minimized?

 

[mikebiewer]

JiveTurkey,

I'm not an expert but I would like to answer this question or at least get the discussion going on it.

I think either option is very viable. You mentioned that a shorter boil will give less bittering time and your right about that. Whether or not adding in more aroma and flavor hops at the end will balance it is another story. I definitely think that if you do option two your beer will be less bitter whether chemically, or just flavor from the extra aroma hops.

As for the 60 minutes in general. I think as long as you bring your wort back up to a boil after you add the extra malt you'll be ok. I believe the boil, for one is sterilazation, but I also think that the longer the boil the thicker the beer will become. Your beer me end up a little lighter I suppose but I guess I'm curious as to how much lighter.

So realistically I think this is just a preference call. I don't think anything would be hindered by doing it for less time. I like I always say, there's no such thing as a bad beer, just some that are more drinkable than others.

Again, I'm not an expert, I'm just getting more into brewing and looking at and reading and trying to help are helping me be a better brewer to. So thanks!

Let me know how it turns out.

 

[dcp27]

so this isn't really helping, but you also have the 3rd option of first wort hopping too

edit: you'd gain about 10% utilization and get a milder bitterness and retain more flavor than the 60 add

 

[JiveTurkey]

mikebiewer, Re: Pasteurization of the knock-out extract: I plan to let it sit covered with the flame off for 5 minutes. From what I've read here and elsewhere, no boiling is necessary. I think someone on here said that at the temperature the wort is at at knock-out, by the time you're done stirring in the LME, it's already been pasteurized.

I have read that though IBUs are identical, hops boiled for less time impart a less harsh bitterness. The disadvantage is that since there's less boil time, it requires more hops.

dcp27, Thanks for the idea on FWH. I am not a big fan of bitterness, so more utilization is actually a con most of the time for me. I do like hop flavor and aroma, but I'm brewing an Irish Red, which is supposed to have little to no hop flavor/aroma. I'm keeping the brew to the lower end of the IBU range, but I'm not afraid to add a little flavor and aroma.

At this point, I'm leaning toward option 2 as it will impart some flavor, a little aroma, and decrease the amount of time brewing.

 

[RushN24]

I am also no expert having just one batch under my belt that I actually just bottles today, but I have read a lot and think that I can help a little.

I do know that longer boils not only contribute to sanitation of the beer, and allow for better hop utilization but it also helps boil off harsh chemicals that can create off flavors like dimethyl sulfide (often referred to as DMS). That's why it is often advised to boil without a lid. The hops utilization is more of an issue if you are using them for bittering rather than flavor or aroma as flavor and aroma hops are boiled for less time. If you want to extract the maximum amount if bittering power from them you will generally want to boil longer.

I've also heard that a longer boil can help create brighter more crisp beer, but I'm not positive about that.

Also someone mentioned that a longer boil leads to thicker beer, this is true because you will obviously boil off a portion of the water leaving behind a greater concentration of sugars. This should be taken into account and corrected by diluting with a proper amount of water to achieve the original gravity you were going for.

 

[mojotele]

There are plenty of recipes that don't do a 60 minute boil - mainly extract ones since DMS isn't as much of a problem as it is with all grain. Sanitization isn't a real big deal since the wort is pasteurized pretty much once it boils - 10 minutes max.

My advice to you is try it and see. The only problem I can imagine is it may take some experimentation to balance your hops to your malts since you'll get more hop flavor.

EDIT: Make sure you also adjust your pre-boil water size to account for having less evaporation. More water will also mean more hop utilization.

 

[mikebiewer]

If someone was to add more extract in the last 10 minutes would they want to bring that water back up to a boil to break down proteins and pasteurize the newly added extract?
Sorry, not trying to hijack the thread, just curious.

Thanks

 

[mojotele]

I've been told that there's enough residual heat left after the boil to pasteurize the extract just fine. That said, I add mine at about 5 minutes left in the boil mainly to make sure it gets mixed in well.

 

[JiveTurkey]

Thanks for the replies folks. Doesn't look like there's any unexpected negative consequences to a short boil.

Beersmith is calculating the IBUs based on a 3 gallon boil size at the given boil time. I assume 3 gallons is the starting volume and a given amount evaporating off is built into the calculation. I'll be topping off with tap water to get to 5 gallons in the fermenter so it doesn't really matter what the boil volume ends up at.

 

[Rushis]

Not a negative effect, but you should expect the end product to have a very different flavor. Search for "Late-Hop additions" to see how your hop flavor profile is going to change by using a shorter boil.

Carmelziation of sugars (as you mentioned), protein denaturation/coagulation (hot break), and the degree of isomerization that occurs with the hop alpha acids, all contribute to your end product and all of them are dependent on the boil.

 

[david_42]

Mainly a shorter boil will mean more hop flavor is retained from the bittering add. I do 30 minute boils for extract batches. The key is to use a very clean bittering hop and/or reduce the flavor add.

 

[mojotele]

Beersmith is calculating the IBUs based on a 3 gallon boil size at the given boil time. I assume 3 gallons is the starting volume and a given amount evaporating off is built into the calculation. I'll be topping off with tap water to get to 5 gallons in the fermenter so it doesn't really matter what the boil volume ends up at.

I use ProMash, not Beersmith, but I can tell you that's not the case in ProMash. ProMash expects the volume to be however much is left post-boil. I discovered this by finding a pre-boil calculator in ProMash that tells you how much pre-boil wort you need to reach the target volume. If Beersmith works the same way, I'd hope there's a similar calculator somewhere.

It does matter how much is left if the software works in this fashion. Everyone's evaporation rate is slightly different, and brewing software usually allows you to plug it in because it is important. It has much more of an effect when you do a partial boil, like you are doing. If you're plugging in the pre-boil amount and the software is expecting the post-boil amount, the IBU calculation could be considerably overstated.

 

[JiveTurkey]

I use ProMash, not Beersmith, but I can tell you that's not the case in ProMash. ProMash expects the volume to be however much is left post-boil. I discovered this by finding a pre-boil calculator in ProMash that tells you how much pre-boil wort you need to reach the target volume. If Beersmith works the same way, I'd hope there's a similar calculator somewhere.

It does matter how much is left if the software works in this fashion. Everyone's evaporation rate is slightly different, and brewing software usually allows you to plug it in because it is important. It has much more of an effect when you do a partial boil, like you are doing. If you're plugging in the pre-boil amount and the software is expecting the post-boil amount, the IBU calculation could be considerably overstated.

Hmm. I'm not sure. If I tell Beersmith to "Set Boil Volume based on Equipment," it assumes a full boil and says to start with a volume of 5.45 gallons (based on the evaporation rate that I arbitrarily set for "My Equipment"). This makes me think "Boil Volume" is pre-boil.

However, for a given hop schedule, no matter how long the total boil is, the IBUs don't change. So, that doesn't make sense. For example, on Beersmith there's no difference between having a 3 gallon boil that goes for just as long as the bittering hops or one where it boils for, say, an extra hour before the hops are added (assuming in both cases the hops are added at the same times relative to the end of the boil).

So, can someone verify for Beersmith, for a partial boil, should I be starting with 3 gallons or shooting to end at 3 gallons?

Also, let's say it's the former method (3 gallons is pre-boil volume), does the 3 gallons include the extract, or is it 3 gallons of water plus the extract?

 

[Mikethepoolguy]

I was hoping this thread would answer one of the questions I had. But I'm still confused. My LHBS sells pre-packaged recipes. I have no problem with that, but the directions are almost identical, including 45 min. boils. It can be frustrating because we want to make great beer.
I realize though, that there are many different types of grain, yeast, hops, techniques, water, temperatures, times, etc..
This means there are an infinite number of possible creations out there.
I'm a homebrew addict, I fear. Too many hops, not enough time.

Oh, dont let me forget to mention opinions- they are more numerous than anything.

 

[vicratlhead51]

Hmm. I'm not sure. If I tell Beersmith to "Set Boil Volume based on Equipment," it assumes a full boil and says to start with a volume of 5.45 gallons (based on the evaporation rate that I arbitrarily set for "My Equipment"). This makes me think "Boil Volume" is pre-boil.

However, for a given hop schedule, no matter how long the total boil is, the IBUs don't change. So, that doesn't make sense. For example, on Beersmith there's no difference between having a 3 gallon boil that goes for just as long as the bittering hops or one where it boils for, say, an extra hour before the hops are added (assuming in both cases the hops are added at the same times relative to the end of the boil).

So, can someone verify for Beersmith, for a partial boil, should I be starting with 3 gallons or shooting to end at 3 gallons?

Also, let's say it's the former method (3 gallons is pre-boil volume), does the 3 gallons include the extract, or is it 3 gallons of water plus the extract?

There's an area in beersmith where you can tell it what equipment you use. I think it defaults with a 6gal brew kettle and it will give you a lower boil volume if you set it for a 5gal kettle. Mine's a 5 gal kettle and it gives me a boil volume of 4.08 gal.