Need help with off flavor

[h22lude]

This is going to be a long and confusing post lol

So I have been having this same off flavor in all my beers no matter what it is. The only beer I haven't detected in yet was an IPA but I think that's because the hops masked it.

I can't put my finger on what the off flavor is though. Some times it tastes fruity like an apple. Other times it tastes like it could be phenols. My brew days usually go perfectly. Maybe a few hiccups (boiled off too much, a few degrees higher or lower on my mash, etc) but nothing to worry about. Usually pitch from a starter or hydrated dry yeast, shake the crap out of it and also use an air pump with inline filter, and have a fridge for temp control. I also use bottled RO water. They have been extract and AG. On paper, these beers should be awesome but they're not.

I clean everything with PBW (tap water) and use Star San (also RO water). I sanitize the crap out of everything. I think I do a good job. I just can't help but think my bucket and/or auto siphon has a bacteria contamination that isn't going away. Or my kegging system does. Though I have used 2 different buckets and a few different kegs and lines. So maybe it is my auto siphon. Tasting my gravity sample it was fine then tasting the end of the batch after racking to my keg it had the off flavor.

To make this even harder to pin point, I just pulled a pint and the flavor was still there. The very next pint the flavor isn't as strong (barely noticeable, if at all).

What the hell is going on? Should I replace all plastic pieces? I can get a new bucket, lid, airlock, auto siphon, tubing, out disconnect, and beer line. I just wish I could pin point the off flavor and where it was coming from. It is such a weird flavor. I wish I could send it to you guys to taste. I think I am going to my LHBS this weekend with some for him to try.

 

[rhys333]

If your beer tastes phenolic or fruity, perhaps its related fto high fermentation temperature. I often ferment around 18-19 C (66-68 F) to prevent any off flavors developing... higher if I want to intentionally produce those flavors (wheat beers for example)

 

[freisste]

If your beer tastes phenolic or fruity, perhaps its related fto high fermentation temperature. I often ferment around 18-19 C (66-68 F) to prevent any off flavors developing... higher if I want to intentionally produce those flavors (wheat beers for example)

This was my first thought. Then OP mentioned a fridge used for a fermentation chamber.

Any chance it is running warmer than it should?

Do you hit the very middle of suggested temp ranges? I always shoot for the bottom to keep a runaway fermentation from warming itself up.

 

[h22lude]

Tested my temp controller and it was only a degree off (if that). I assume since that is accurate, the temp of the fridge would be accurate since it uses that instead of the internal thermo.

All my beers are fermented in the middle to low end of the range.

 

[Beernik]

Your probe is monitoring the fermenter temp and not the air temp of the fridge, correct? If it is monitoring fridge air temperature, the fermentation is likely running hotter.

Also, what is your pitch temp? I've gotten green apple from pitching too hot.

 

[gcdowd]

My first thought would be water. You said you use RO water, which may be fine for extract beers but would not really work for AG. Did both the AG and extract beers use RO water?

 

[h22lude]

Your probe is monitoring the fermenter temp and not the air temp of the fridge, correct? If it is monitoring fridge air temperature, the fermentation is likely running hotter.

Also, what is your pitch temp? I've gotten green apple from pitching too hot.

Probe taped to the side of the bucket and insulated with paper towel.

I usually pitch under 70 but I think my old thermometer was off so I could have pitched a little warm. I wouldn't say higher than 75.

My first thought would be water. You said you use RO water, which may be fine for extract beers but would not really work for AG. Did both the AG and extract beers use RO water?

Straight RO for extract. For AG I had calcium.

 

[h22lude]

Could it be wild yeast in my house?

 

[gcdowd]

If you properly sanitized I doubt it would be wild yeast. Wild yeast is everywhere but the ale yeast would likely way out compete it

 

[h22lude]

How about mold in the air? My stuff is stored in my basement and there is a little mold down there. Just trying to think of anything.

 

[Beernik]

It sounds like it's not any of the ususual suspects.

Is it present before bottling/kegging or only after? What yeasts are you using? I know London III goes fruity fairly easily.

 

[h22lude]

It sounds like it's not any of the ususual suspects.

Is it present before bottling/kegging or only after? What yeasts are you using? I know London III goes fruity fairly easily.

From what I can tell, it seems to happen after racking from primary to keg.

I have used US-05 and a handful of white labs (nothing overly fruity or high in esters).

 

[gregfreemyer]

Since you've ruled out the obvious, are you being too aggressive racking your beer from primary to keg? If you transfer any trub you will end up with an off-flavor.

As I understand it, that is one of the big advantages of a conical. With that you can pull the trub out of the bottom of the fermenter as needed and keep the beer isolated from the trub. A decent conical also has in inlet pipe that lets you control pretty precisely where the beer is coming from.

Unfortunately the cheapest conical I know about is $500 (or so).

<http://shop.wortmonster.com/24-Gallon-Conical-Fermenter-Valve-Kit-Included-10100.htm>

I'm not saying you need one, but get the manual from the bottom of that page look at how the sampling/racking port is designed to let you rotate the inlet pipe and control how far down you go in the fermenter with the beer racking process.

At least for me, seeing the fine control they provide makes me try harder to not get any trub when I rack with my auto-siphon.

 

[Beernik]

From what I can tell, it seems to happen after racking from primary to keg.

I have used US-05 and a handful of white labs (nothing overly fruity or high in esters).

I'm a bottler, not a kegger, so I don't have first had experience. It reminds me of a bottle infection I got. Fruit and sour showed up in some bottles and not in others.

If it tastes fine going in the keg and tastes off coming out, I'd start with a thorough cleaning of taps and lines. It could be that's where you are harboring an infection.

It could be in your racking cane/siphon/hose too. Hoses are cheap to replace at hardware stores.

I'd also double check that the keg for the next brew is visibly clean before racking.

 

[h22lude]

I would love a conical but I don't think it is from trub. I may get a very small amount into my keg. When I say small I mean a thimble size (maybe two thimbles). Not enough to create an off flavor.

This batch that I have now I did smell it after racking which is making me think it is something in my plastic (either auto siphon or tubing). It was just weird that last night my 2nd pull barely had it. I'm going to pull 2 tonight and let my fiance taste them without telling her what I am looking for to see if she can taste a difference.

I think right now my best option is replacing anything plastic. My buckets could be scratched and harvesting a nasty somewhere.

 

[Beernik]

Tasting it less on the second pint can be one of two things:

1) taste fatigue. Your taste is the sharpest when you taste something new the first time. You taste it again, and you don't taste it as much. The more you taste it, the less you can't decern the flavors.

2) when you pull the first drink, the beer between the tap and the keg has been in the line for a long time. If that is where the infection is, that is when you will taste it the most. On the second pull, the infection has only been working on the beer for minutes to hours. So you may not taste it as much.

 

[ong]

Next time, maybe try filling a couple bottles (and priming) as well as kegging. You can see if the flavor shows up in bottles as well.

It sounds like you're saying you can pull a sample right before racking to the keg and it tastes fine , then you pull a sample from the keg and it tastes bad? Have you replaced your o rings? I have had kegs with very persistent Sprite/lemon-lime aromas that contributed off flavors. Long PBW soak, elbow grease, and new O rings did the trick.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[h22lude]

Tasting it less on the second pint can be one of two things:

1) taste fatigue. Your taste is the sharpest when you taste something new the first time. You taste it again, and you don't taste it as much. The more you taste it, the less you can't decern the flavors.

2) when you pull the first drink, the beer between the tap and the keg has been in the line for a long time. If that is where the infection is, that is when you will taste it the most. On the second pull, the infection has only been working on the beer for minutes to hours. So you may not taste it as much.

1) good point. I think I'll have my fiance taste two and I'll taste the same but in opposite order. This way we both taste each one but are able to taste different ones first.

2) I was also thinking this. I just can't understand how I got an infection because I clean with blc and sanitize.

Next time, maybe try filling a couple bottles (and priming) as well as kegging. You can see if the flavor shows up in bottles as well.

It sounds like you're saying you can pull a sample right before racking to the keg and it tastes fine , then you pull a sample from the keg and it tastes bad? Have you replaced your o rings? I have had kegs with very persistent Sprite/lemon-lime aromas that contributed off flavors. Long PBW soak, elbow grease, and new O rings did the trick.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

My next batch I will be bottling half.

When I rack to keg I take a small sample at the end to taste (from primary not the keg). This batch I could smell it in that sample which is why I think it is something with my auto siphon.

I do soak with oxiclean and scrub with a sponge. I bought all new orings for every keg. I may replace the line and disconnect.

 

[phatspade]

Can be the fittings on the keg hiding critters. Also the dip tube in the keg. Give the keg a deep clean by taking it apart so all the little nooks get contact with the cleaner.
This sounds more like a keg problem.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Home Brew mobile app

 

[JimRausch]

Unless I'm misinterpreting your post, the offtaste is not there prior to kegging and is there after?
If that's the case, must be something off with the kegging system. I don't keg, but hopefully those that do will chime in with places to look for contamination.
Sorry- I was away from the computer for awhile after I wrote this and before I posted it. Looks like this has been covered, so disregard.

 

[grathan]

Can you describe the probability of chlorine in your RO water supply?

Also fruity is probably fruity and phenolic is probably phenols. You can (and probably do) have multiple off-flavors in your beer at once.

As far as tasting it in the first beer and not the next one.. could it be yeast settling in the keg and getting sucked up in the first beer but not the second? If not I would agree with the post above about perceptions from the first beer to the next.

 

[h22lude]

Can be the fittings on the keg hiding critters. Also the dip tube in the keg. Give the keg a deep clean by taking it apart so all the little nooks get contact with the cleaner.
This sounds more like a keg problem.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Home Brew mobile app

I take my kegs apart every time I finish a beer. I let all the parts soak in BLC and I run BLC through the lines.

Can you describe the probability of chlorine in your RO water supply?

Also fruity is probably fruity and phenolic is probably phenols. You can (and probably do) have multiple off-flavors in your beer at once.

As far as tasting it in the first beer and not the next one.. could it be yeast settling in the keg and getting sucked up in the first beer but not the second? If not I would agree with the post above about perceptions from the first beer to the next.

I would assume the company that filtered the water uses a carbon filter which removed chlorine. I guess if the carbon filter wasn't replaced it would make it through but I highly doubt a company would allow that to happen as the chlorine would ruin their RO filter.

I think my plan of action for my next brew is to replace my bucket and auto siphon (including the lines). I will also replace the beer line and disconnect. I will taste the beer before kegging using my wine thief so I will know where it is coming from. If the off flavor is gone, I know it was either my plastic equipment or in my keg lines. If it is still there then it is another problem.

 

[h22lude]

Took a few bottles to my LHBS. Owner believes I pitched too warm or fermented too warm. He also thinks it lacks mouth feel which is most likely from using RO water and not adding minerals. He said even with some extracts, minerals are needed.