Need help with an Iron Brew recipe using cacao nibs, midnight wheat, and American hops!!!

[TANSTAAFB]

So my new homebrew club is having an Iron Brew competition. I know, most of the time you have to come up with something on the spot and brew on the fly. We get a little time to work on it! I have some ideas, but I'd love to hear from the homebrewtalk crowd[emoji12] So here's what I have to work with...

Cacao nibs
1# midnight wheat
1# dingemans cara 45
1# briess caramel 90
I think I get about 10# of 2-row...haven't picked that up yet
Here's where it gets interesting
1oz Citra 12.3 (YHC)
All the rest are locally grown, no clue about %. I'm using the Beersmith #s
3oz Cascade
2oz Chinook
1oz Nugget

I'm planning on making a tincture w/ the cacao following the Beechum method https://www.maltosefalcons.com/tech/cacao-nib-extract-drew-way

Thoughts?

 

[TANSTAAFB]

Bueller? Bueller? Bueller?

I am soaking the cacao nibs in white rum instead of vodka because it's what I had on hand and I think it'll add a nice subtle flavor. My first instinct is to do a Cascadian Dark Ale because of the hops and the Midnight wheat. The other styles that would go really well like a Baltic Porter or a dark American barleywine need more time to age IMO. This needs to be ready to judge in a month.
What else would you do?

 

[TANSTAAFB]

Nothin?

 

[FatDragon]

What are the rules? You have to use all of those ingredients? Can you withhold some of them or add your own?

 

[govner1]

The few times I’ve used cacao nibs I’ve put them in the boil for. 10-15 minutes. I. Would advise a Hop sock or something similar as they can cause blockages whilechilli g/whirlpooling.
I’d use half the Chinook for bittering then the Nugget & 1/3 of Cascade at 30, and 1/3 at 15. Dry Hop with what’s left.
Looks like a nice Black IPA.
Also throw-in some rice hulls.
You might consider the Citra for whirlpooling.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

What are the rules? You have to use all of those ingredients? Can you withhold some of them or add your own?

Thank you! I was starting to think I wasn't going to get any help!

Don't have to use anything but the cacao, can't add anything except yeast and miscellaneous stuff like water tx, yeast nutrient, etc.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

The few times I’ve used cacao nibs I’ve put them in the boil for. 10-15 minutes. I. Would advise a Hop sock or something similar as they can cause blockages whilechilli g/whirlpooling.
I’d use half the Chinook for bittering then the Nugget & 1/3 of Cascade at 30, and 1/3 at 15. Dry Hop with what’s left.
Looks like a nice Black IPA.
Also throw-in some rice hulls.
You might consider the Citra for whirlpooling.

Thank you for the input! What kind of character did you get in the boil? And in what kind of recipes? I've already started making the tincture so I'm committed on this one, but I'm interested in the differences in flavor with various techniques.

I guess I'm wondering if anything but a Cascadian Dark Ale makes sense (I'm from the NW, I'll never make a black IPA!)
I think most of the club is going that route, so I either need to do something different or make it the best F'n CDA of the bunch!

What yeast would you use?

 

[FatDragon]

Chocolate in a CDA seems risky. Are you allowed to modify the malts yourself, such as roasting some 2-row in the oven or smoking some in a smoker (if you have access to one)? You don't have significant roast in the midnight wheat, but if you could get some roast flavor from home-roasting some of the malt (not sure if that's even possible to do with positive results), you could do a stout or porter of some kind, perhaps a smoked chocolate porter if you can smoke some of the malt.

In the unlikely event that you're allowed other adjuncts like coffee and vanilla, you could potentially go the golden porter route, with or without midnight wheat for color.

I'd be wary of using much of the C90, too. I haven't used that one, but my experience with caramel malts in that range is that they tend to give a lot of dried fruit flavors, like a milder Special B. I'm not sure how well that would work in a CDA.

One last thought: if you're not limited to a certain batch size, a smaller batch size would allow you to make something stronger. A month probably isn't enough time for a strong beer, but it's worth considering.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

No reason I couldn't smoke or roast some malt. I've never done it, but I'm game! Can't use any other adjuncts.

I've been mulling over the possibilities for a couple of days now and I don't think a big beer will have time to really come into its own. And the hops don't really lend themselves to a Porter or something like that. I could do an American export stout kind of thing, but not w/o roasting my own malt. I might experiment with some other 2 row I have and see if I can't expand what I have available!

I've had some really good pale ales that had a hint of coffee or chocolate and I really enjoyed them. That's why I decided to go with the tincture, so I have control over how much goes in and I can do it at the end when I have an otherwise finished brew.

Right now here's what I'm thinking. I completely agree about the 90. So...

10# 2 row base
1# midnight wheat (cold steeped and added towards the end of the boil)
1# C45
.5# COP
1oz Cascade FWH, 60 min boil.
All other hops go into a 30min whirlpool
That gives me a out a 1.065 SG and around 100 IBU (estimated)
I'm thinking either French saison yeast or a Belgian strain, but fermented at 64-70 to restrain the character a little.
Cacao tincture gets frozen, butter scraped off, and strain out the nibs.
Experiment with tincture in small doses to get the best flavor.

 

[snowveil]

Looks like the basis for a killer American Stout. Ditch the saison yeast. I love saisons, but imagine putting black pepper and lemon in your coffee. Yeauchhh. I'd ferment with a characterful american yeast like American Ale II from Wyeast (1272...I think?) or Cal Ale V from White Labs.

I like to 50/50 the typical Roasted Barley addition in a stout with Roasted Barley / Blackprinz (or Midnight Wheat should be similar enough) to cut back on the roast a little bit, and then maybe backfill with some coffee if you want. Cascade/Chinook for flavor should be great in an American stout....plus it'd allow you to use both c45 and c90 if you want.

I'd also drop the IBUs from the 100 range to 50-60, personally. Cascade for flavor in an American stout is pretty classic.

IMO Stouts tend to come into their own at about 2-3 months though (at least with my system). Personally, that's what I'd do.

 

[FatDragon]

Why ~100 IBU? I don't think I've had a good beer that packed that much bitterness into such a moderate SG. You've been brewing for a while so I'm sure you know what you're doing, but I personally wouldn't want to go much over 60 IBUs in the recipe. Depending on your whirlpool methods, though, you might actually be closer to 60 than 100 (not to mention they say actual IBUs in homebrewed beer tend to be significantly less than the calculators suggest).

 

[TANSTAAFB]

Why ~100 IBU? I don't think I've had a good beer that packed that much bitterness into such a moderate SG. You've been brewing for a while so I'm sure you know what you're doing, but I personally wouldn't want to go much over 60 IBUs in the recipe. Depending on your whirlpool methods, though, you might actually be closer to 60 than 100 (not to mention they say actual IBUs in homebrewed beer tend to be significantly less than the calculators suggest).

I don't think you actually get anywhere near 100 IBU with nothing but an oz of Cascade at the beginning and everything else in the whirlpool, but that's what Beersmith estimated. I think it'll be smooth, aromatic, and flavorful because of the method. It'd be Overkill with typical 60/30/15/0 additions though.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

Looks like the basis for a killer American Stout. Ditch the saison yeast. I love saisons, but imagine putting black pepper and lemon in your coffee. Yeauchhh. I'd ferment with a characterful american yeast like American Ale II from Wyeast (1272...I think?) or Cal Ale V from White Labs.

I like to 50/50 the typical Roasted Barley addition in a stout with Roasted Barley / Blackprinz (or Midnight Wheat should be similar enough) to cut back on the roast a little bit, and then maybe backfill with some coffee if you want. Cascade/Chinook for flavor should be great in an American stout....plus it'd allow you to use both c45 and c90 if you want.

I'd also drop the IBUs from the 100 range to 50-60, personally. Cascade for flavor in an American stout is pretty classic.

IMO Stouts tend to come into their own at about 2-3 months though (at least with my system). Personally, that's what I'd do.

I really love the idea of the big American stout but I'm worried 1 month ain't long enough. 2-3 months to optimum flavor is my experience as well. Do you think the cacao would add the necessary roast character w/o roast malt? The midnight wheat will give color, but not roasted character. I could try roast/smoke your own...hmmmmmm

 

[TANSTAAFB]

Looks like the basis for a killer American Stout. Ditch the saison yeast. I love saisons, but imagine putting black pepper and lemon in your coffee. Yeauchhh. I'd ferment with a characterful american yeast like American Ale II from Wyeast (1272...I think?) or Cal Ale V from White Labs.

I like to 50/50 the typical Roasted Barley addition in a stout with Roasted Barley / Blackprinz (or Midnight Wheat should be similar enough) to cut back on the roast a little bit, and then maybe backfill with some coffee if you want. Cascade/Chinook for flavor should be great in an American stout....plus it'd allow you to use both c45 and c90 if you want.

I'd also drop the IBUs from the 100 range to 50-60, personally. Cascade for flavor in an American stout is pretty classic.

IMO Stouts tend to come into their own at about 2-3 months though (at least with my system). Personally, that's what I'd do.

Here's an idea for a Stout using some of your suggestions. I'd love some feedback. Big question is American ale yeast or a Belgian strain (not saison) to bring out some character (more dark, pit fruit than spice or phenolics) and dry it out. I really want to go Belgian but can be talked out of it!

I'm thinking about trying to roast my own using 1# of the base malt to make .5# of Chocolate malt and .5# Roast malt. I'm considering cold steeping the dark malts, especially since I don't know how much bitterness and astringency I'm going to get from home roasted malt. Or maybe just add them at the last 10-15 minutes of the mash?

9# 2 row base
.5# of Chocolate malt
.5# Roast malt
1# Midnight Wheat
1# C45
1# C90. I'm leaning towards dropping this to .5# but not sure.
Dropping the Citra and Nugget so
1oz Cascade FWH
2oz Cascade whirlpool
2oz Chinook whirlpool

American or Belgian yeast

Cacao tincture to taste at packaging

This would give me an OG around 1061 and estimated 68 IBU

 

[govner1]

Thank you for the input! What kind of character did you get in the boil? And in what kind of recipes? I've already started making the tincture so I'm committed on this one, but I'm interested in the differences in flavor with various techniques.

I guess I'm wondering if anything but a Cascadian Dark Ale makes sense (I'm from the NW, I'll never make a black IPA!)
I think most of the club is going that route, so I either need to do something different or make it the best F'n CDA of the bunch!

What yeast would you use?

I was brewing a Bitter Chocolate Oatmeal Stout (high gravity). I got just the right balance of chocolate. I’ve not done a tincture so I cannot give you a comparison.
I do agree that that’s a lot of C-90!

 

[FatDragon]

You probably want to mash at least some of your home-roasted malts to get enough roast flavor, but I agree that it might be good to add them late or cold-steep some of them because astringency could be an issue (I think normally roasted grain, like coffee, is supposed to sit for a week or two to mellow out, but you don't have the luxury of that time).

A lot of this is a matter of taste. If it were me, I'd mash high with only half of the C90, do 60-15-5 additions with Chinook and Nugget to ~50 IBUs, and use an American or English yeast, but that's me. A dry, Belgian-fermented chocolate stout with whirlpooled American hops might be fantastic. You do you - that's pretty much what this competition's about.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

I think I'll keep the roast grain in the light chocolate malt ballpark. I'm worried doing something like black malt (roasted barley and black barley aren't malted) would be too acrid, especially w/o time to let it rest. The CDA would be easier, but I think the stout is the way to go. Just not sure a cacao infused CDA would work. And I'm definitely leaning towards the Belgian yeast...go big or go home!

 

[TANSTAAFB]

After some research I decided to go with Wyeast 3822. From the description, this will be freaking awesome in my BelgoMurican stout! https://www.beer-wine.com has free shipping over $10 so I added a pack of 34/70.

3822-PC

BELGIAN DARK ALE

This unique Belgian ale yeast is a high acid producer with balanced ester and phenol production allowing a good expression of malt profile, especially the strong flavors of darker malts and sugars. High alcohol tolerance. Spicy, tart, and dry on the palate with a very complex finish.

MEDIUM

FLOCCULATION

74 - 79

ATTENUATION

65 - 80

TEMPERATURE RANGE

12

ABV

 

[TANSTAAFB]

Aaaand it's out of stock! Omega 040 Belgian Dark Ale is supposed to be the same strain, but can't find it in stock either. Any suggestions? That description looked perfect

 

[TANSTAAFB]

I freaking love having a LHBS (8 years and this is the first time I've had one)! Called Scott at Lil Ole Winemaker and he has one WLP510 on hand and he's holding it for me [emoji482]
I'll update on how the roasting (maybe smoking?) goes.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

In the pan

Here's the 1st attempt, intentionally kept it light

Side by side. I only took a small amount and kept roasting. In reality they are probably closer to brown malt and light chocolate rather than light chocolate and black malt. But w/o time to let them rest much I was leary of letting them go too long. This should add some nice complexity to my brew that others don't have!

 

[FatDragon]

That looks better than I expected. The lighter one looks like a malt that a place here roasts in-house (I think) and sells as "Coffee Malt", and the dark one looks very nice indeed. How do they taste? How much did you end up making, all told?

 

[TANSTAAFB]

Lots of patience, took a couple of hours! I used the side burner on my grill and just kept things moving, either by shaking or stirring with a whisk. I did a pound in 2 batches, ended up w/ 12 oz of the lighter one and 2oz of the darker. Immediately got sick, so really hard to tell flavors right now. I'd say the flavors are the roasty, kind of burnt, coffee-esque that one would expect. Maybe a little more acrid than I'd like but it's such a small amount in the whole grist I think it'll be fine. The color is lighter than the flavor suggests if that makes sense. I had considered cold steeping but realized I really don't want to smooth it out too much. I went to a lot of work to get those flavors!

 

[TANSTAAFB]

Finally got it brewed! I think it's going to come out really good. I mashed everything and got a nice balance between bitterness, roast character, and hop flavor. Still too stopped up to tell about aroma but I did hold back 1oz of Cascade and 1oz Citra for dry hopping. Pitched WLP510 Bastogne. The cacao tincture is in the freezer waiting for packaging, but I'll probably use all of it. I did get confirmation that the target style is a CDA, but only one extra point is awarded for getting the style right. I think my BelgoMurican Stout will more than make up for that!

 

[FatDragon]

Wait, target style? I don't think you ever said anything about there being a target style.

Anyway, if it's only one point (out of how many?), it shouldn't be the deciding factor. They may give it to you on the fact that you're still going hoppy and dark anyway.

Give us full tasting notes and results from the competition when it comes in. I'm intrigued by this beer.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

Will do. I didn't really know the details until I was picking up my yeast at the LHBS and a couple of other club members were there. The target style was unknown but the owner let it slip. I was pretty sure CDA was what they were going for but I'm happy I went the route I did. I know one guy did a kettle sour... can't wait to try that one!

 

[TANSTAAFB]

I really hope the Citra dry hops help me get a chocolate orange flavor! One of my favorite things about the holidays

 

[TANSTAAFB]

Got my first taste and it's yummy! I transferred a 1/2 gallon to a mini keg to get an idea of what this will taste like carbed up and what ratio of cacao tincture to add and it's already chocolatey and delicious! My home roast malt and the Belgian yeast did their jobs, I dig it

 

[TANSTAAFB]

This beer is really freaking good! Dry hopping with Cascade and Citra in the keg. I'll give it a couple of days at room temp, cool and carbonate, then add the cacao tinctures. The rest of the club better bring it, this is one of the best beers I've made! And never would have put this recipe together if it hadn't been for the challenge

 

[TANSTAAFB]

Added half the tincture a couple of days into dry hopping and let it sit a couple more days. Decided to add the rest after sampling. Total dry hopping was a little more than a week. Then I bottled using the BMBF (BierMuncher Bottle Filler) method with good success. I really love this beer! Hoppy, slightly roasty, chocolatey, smooth. Not sure all the flavors will meld together to the ideal point by the time I have to submit it for judging...the chocolate and hops clash a little, as I suspected they would. While I characterize it as a BelgoMurican Stout I'll enter it as a CDA...no reason to give away points! I'm really looking forward to the judging and feedback, I've never entered a competition or had BJCP judges try my beer

 

[TANSTAAFB]

Turned this in tonight at the club meet and shared an extra bottle with some of the more veteran brewers, including a local commercial brewer. Received pretty positive feedback all around. I think the best comment from one of the club officers had nothing to do with this particular recipe, just that every brew I bring is clean, solid, and without a bunch of BS off flavors. I think I make good beer, my friends think I make good beer, but it's nice to have a little external validation every once in a while!
We get the results of the judging and get to try the other entries on 2/7 at the next club meet. Winner gets submitted to a bigger competition on the club.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

Didn't score what I expected (28/29) but the bastards drank all my beer, so I guess they liked it! Shouldn't have entered it as a CDA when that's not what I made. Talked to one of the judges, brewer at a local brew pub, and he said he loved it! Just should have entered it as a Belgian Dark Ale or Belgian Stout. Still tastes good to me!