Need help with a yeast starter

[dionbill]

I've done yeast starters before using new packs of yeast with great success. But as i progress further into this hobby, i've started all-grain brewing and decided to reuse yeast from a previous batch. i'm not sure what you refer to this as - "Yeast Wrags" maybe??? So, during my last brew i saved all the sediment at the bottom of the primary fermentor in a jar and kept it in the refrigerator. Last night i decided to try a yeast starter using the saved yeast (WYeast 1056). I added 9oz of the yeast wrags into the fermentor (about 1/2 of what i had saved) along with the starter wort, shook the heck out of it, airlocked it, and left it overnight. This morning it was just settled out, with no activity, nothing. It looks dead. I'm wondering if my yeast is no good, if i have to run it through a second starter, or just give it more time? Should i shake it again and leave it a while longer? Or did i do something totally wrong with this yeast wrag? My worry is that i did something wrong using the old yeast and this is a lost cause. Attached is a picture from this morning which was 8 hours after i put it down. Any help would be great as this process is still fairly new to me. Thanks all... Cheers!

Dion

 

[Foosier]

8 hours is not a ton of time, though I'd think youd have some action by now. My "Shake as you pass" starters typically setted out between passes. When I would shake though, I'd get action in the airlock as I would disturb the CO2 on the yeast. I'd give it a bit of time.

That being said... How long did you save the yeast in the fridge? If it was for more than a month you might need to let it step up as that is usually the shelf life I have seen posted for refridgerated slurry.

Also, it is not a good idea to use an airlock on a starter. Your starter needs O2. Sanitized tin foil wrapped losely over the top of the jug is sufficient for sanitation. (Note: Just because it is not optimal does not mean this ruined this starter. I did a number of starters with airlocks before I went to a stirplate set up.)

 

[Hello]

I thought you had to swirl it every so often when making a starter if you didn't have a stir plate?

 

[flars]

Reusing harvested yeast from the slurry in the fermentor is a good practice.
First remove the airlock from your jug and cover it with sanitized foil. The foil should not be overly tight. A yeast starter relies on gas exchange for optimal fermentation of the slurry. The CO2 escapes and oxygen enters.

Using the shake a swirl method relies on physically shaking the starter wort as often as possible for aeration. A stir plate is continuously stirs the wort for aeration.

Give what you have a shake. If an instant krausen forms the yeast is not done fermenting the sugars. If no krausen forms the yeast may have finished with the sugars made available.

Question is do you have an estimate of the number of yeast cells you began with? I estimate 1 billion cells per milliliter of harvested slurry. Some calculators estimate more. I go low because overpitching is hard to do, but under pitching can have consequences for the final product. How many of these yeast cells were still viable? Viability depends upon the production date. Yeast begins losing viability the day after production. Production date of your harvested yeast is the day active fermentation of the beer it was harvested from ended. How much DME did you add in the fresh wort? The amount of DME used will determine the growth rate and the number of new cells propagated.

These answers for building a good starter to propagate the number of cells can be found using a yeast calculator. These are two good ones. These two sites have valuable information along with the basic calculators.
http://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/
http://www.mrmalty.com/yeast-tools.php

This is a very rough overview of making a starter. Look over the two sites and come back with questions.

I hope you find it helpful.

 

[Hello]

If I use foil, which I have, do I poke holes in the foil? Sorry to hijack the thread but I poked holes last time.

 

[sch21c]

If I use foil, which I have, do I poke holes in the foil? Sorry to hijack the thread but I poked holes last time.

No holes. You want to sanitize the foil (I spray it with starsan) and then loosely wrap the sanitized side of the foil around the top of the flask. You don't want a tight, crimped foil.

 

[flars]

If I use foil, which I have, do I poke holes in the foil? Sorry to hijack the thread but I poked holes last time.

I wouldn't poke holes in the foil. This could allow airborne stuff to drop down into the wort.

 

[JDGator]

no need to poke holes, just sanitize and wrap. don't wrap it so tight that your trying to make a perfect seal. like posted above, you want the air to be able to get in and out as need be.

 

[ph0ngwh0ng]

A great post on the subject by a knowledgeable person. Gets interesting for the OP around the middle.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/why-not-pitch-your-yeast-cake-166221/

 

[Hello]

Oh OP I was just reading about yeast washing and found this video that was super helpful. Maybe it'll help you too.
http://billybrew.com/yeast-washing

Thank you all for the info on the foil. I was poking holes.

 

[ph0ngwh0ng]

^this video is great and that's how I learned to wash yeast, but just keep in mind that non-washed slurry will not keep as long (25% viability loss after one week in the fridge) as washed yeast, which can be kept several weeks in the fridge.

For yeast keepers and starter makers, this method is also fantastic and lets you save pure yeast, 100% free of trub:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/entries/yeast-harvesting-novel-approach.html

 

[dionbill]

Thanks guys for all the feedback. So i have removed the airlock and added the sanitized foil. I have also swirled it quite a few times as well and will continue to do so. I did not see a krousen when i initially stirred it, but just bubbles, from the agitation i presume. I used 1 cup of DME to 32oz of water. I harvested the 1056 yeast on April 16th from the primary fermentor and it has been sitting in my fridge ever since. I decanted off most of the liquid, leaving a small amount to allow me to shake it and liquefy the sediment, when taking about 9 ozs of that and adding to the wort (1 cup DMS / 32oz water). I have no idea what my cell count is, and i did not wash the yeast (i will going forward for sure...). A lot of this is new to me, especially yeast count, yeast requirements, and so forth. Although i usually do a yeast starter before all my brews, i just followed a simple step-by-step process on YouTube which has given me decent results with little lag time and vigorous fermentation (had to move to a blow off tube). I like the idea and process of Yeast Washing and will try that on my next batch. Because i don't have the answers to the questions that i probably need to see if it is still viable or not, i should probably just dump this one and focus on a new process (Yeast Washing) going forward. If i had a stir plate, how long do you let it stir for? Thanks again gang for the additional info. I learned a lot here today. I wish i had more time to thoroughly research this but life seems to get in the way... any other comments or suggestions are greatly appreciated. Cheers!!!

Dion

 

[dionbill]

^this video is great and that's how I learned to wash yeast, but just keep in mind that non-washed slurry will not keep as long (25% viability loss after one week in the fridge) as washed yeast, which can be kept several weeks in the fridge.

For yeast keepers and starter makers, this method is also fantastic and lets you save pure yeast, 100% free of trub:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/entries/yeast-harvesting-novel-approach.html

This sounds more logical and better than the yeast washing. Maybe i should give this a try on my next new yeast pack...

Any suggestions for a stir plate? I read on here a while back of a guy who was making these and selling them fairly cheap and would guarantee them. Thanks again. Fantastic stuff!

Dion

 

[WayFrae]

When I make a starter in a growler like that I just sanitize the screw on lid and basically just set it on top instead of using foil. Both ways work fine but I prefer not to waste the foil if I have another way to cover it.

 

[ph0ngwh0ng]

This sounds more logical and better than the yeast washing. Maybe i should give this a try on my next new yeast pack...

Any suggestions for a stir plate? I read on here a while back of a guy who was making these and selling them fairly cheap and would guarantee them. Thanks again. Fantastic stuff!

Dion

I don't know about that guy, but I made mine for about 20 bucks using a pc fan, magnets, a box, an adapter and a stir bar.

 

[WayFrae]

I don't know about that guy, but I made mine for about 20 bucks using a pc fan, magnets, a box, an adapter and a stir bar.

+1. Mine also only cost about $20 including the stir bar. It works great. I even bought the magnets instead of messing with a hard drive magnet and the casing I used is just a plastic food container. It is super easy to make them.

 

[Hello]

This sounds more logical and better than the yeast washing. Maybe i should give this a try on my next new yeast pack...

Any suggestions for a stir plate? I read on here a while back of a guy who was making these and selling them fairly cheap and would guarantee them. Thanks again. Fantastic stuff!

Dion

I saw some dude pimping them on Reddit for $50. Not a bad price if you don't want to build your own. I figure for $20 I would and did build my own. Works well.

 

[kaconga]

I purchased my stir plate and flask from stirstarters.com and I love it. I didn't have any old computer parts so it was comparable to buying everything I would have needed anyways.

 

[Foosier]

The stirstarters stir plate is really nice. I built one myself first and had issues getting the stirbar to not be throuwn. Bought the stirstarter plate and it worked very well. can't beat the guarantee either. I know someone who had issues with theirs and he fedexed out a new one asap. They are sold through a number of vendors now so look around. I got mine from Bells as they had the best shipping price. Then I say my LHBS carried them and I could have saved the shipping all together...

On the complexity of yeast and knowing cell counts and stuff like that I would say you don't really need to worry about that. Without a microscope and some equipment you can't tell cell count anyway. Most brewers just estimate. That is where a starter comes in handy. Think the viability may be low? Build a starter and get the yeast happy and healthy. If you want to go the scientific route know that you can., but other have done the heavy lifting and that knowledge can be gleaned from many online calculators like Mr Malty.

As far as how long to let your starter run, there are varying opinions. I have heard some let it go 6 days to ferment out completely. Others pitch at high krausen (hard to do if you never get a krausen). I usually let mine run about 24 hours. If I step it up to get a lot of yeast I add an additional 24 hours for each step. That is usually sufficient (I believe yeast usually double in 24 hours.)

 

[j1n]

i made my stir plate for roughly 15$ dollars. Just bought magnets ($7) and stir bar ($8) online, used an old phone charger laying around, PC fan i took out of an old PC, and a empty cigar box i had laying around.

 

[ph0ngwh0ng]

Just one thing: don't go with hard drive magnets. They're hard not to break and if you do the magnetic field will be unbalanced and the stir bar will get thrown away. Buy neodynium magnets (about 3/16 thick and 1/2 in diameter).

Efficient all grain brewing is really cost intensive if you don't DIY.

 

[dionbill]

Question about the yeast calculator on brewer's friend. How do I know what the pitch target rate is? And how long do I leave the yeast starter for before I can pitch it or start a second starter from the first? Thanks guys.

Dion


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

 

[flars]

Question about the yeast calculator on brewer's friend. How do I know what the pitch target rate is? And how long do I leave the yeast starter for before I can pitch it or start a second starter from the first? Thanks guys.

Dion


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

I select the default 0.75 Pro Brewer pitch rate for my average gravity, up to 1.059, ales. Further down on the calculator page is an explanation and reasoning for the different pitch rates.

Allow 48 hours for the shake a swirl method to complete the fermentation of the starter wort.

It will take a minimum of 24 hours to cold crash the starter wort for decanting prior to pitching. Some yeast do not flocculate as fast. When the fermented starter wort is no longer cloudy the yeast has dropped out and is ready for decanting. I usually begin my starters a week before brew day so the fresh yeast is in the frig ready to go.

 

[dionbill]

Ah, I didn't see that down there. Sorry for the noob question but what do you mean by cold crash it? Can't I just go from the starter vessel to the wort? I'm trying to develop a process going forward.


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[gwaugh]

Just a thought, but is it possible the yeast ate through the op's starter very quickly and he missed seeing it? If he had a large amount of healthy yeast I would think it would chew through a starter really fast. Normally I only do a starter with washed yeast if I've saved it for 2 weeks or more. Anything younger than that and I just pitch directly.

 

[kaconga]

Just a thought, but is it possible the yeast ate through the op's starter very quickly and he missed seeing it? If he had a large amount of healthy yeast I would think it would chew through a starter really fast. Normally I only do a starter with washed yeast if I've saved it for 2 weeks or more. Anything younger than that and I just pitch directly.

It is possible, however, unlikely since it had only been 8 hours. If the starter and the yeast were at the same temp and that temp was 90 or so degrees then it could have happened. But the yeast was cold (dormant) and the starter was at room temp. To me this signifies that the yeast were just getting ready to go rather than dropping out and finishing up.

 

[kaconga]

Ah, I didn't see that down there. Sorry for the noob question but what do you mean by cold crash it? Can't I just go from the starter vessel to the wort? I'm trying to develop a process going forward.


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If you have a very large starter than you might not want all that not so yummy beer in your finished product. So you would stick it in the fridge overnight and this will cause the yeast to drop out of suspension more completely. Then you CAREFULLY pour off the starter beer leaving just enough to get the yeast into suspension again. Pour this remaining slurry into your wort.

If you want to pitch the entire starter then you might want the starter wort to more closely mimic your beers profile. These are only recommendations and YMMV. People make beer with a variety of techniques and you can definitely cut some corners along the way and still have good beer.