Need help taking all-grain plunge

[NorCalAngler]

I have twelve extract/partial mash batches under my belt and I'm trying to plan the next steps to eventually go all grain. I have the following:

5 gallon kettle
25ft copper wort chiller
2x 6.5 gallon primary buckets
1x 5 gallon better bottle secondary
1x bottling bucket

I currently do partial boils on my gas cooktop. It has a 15,000 BTU center burner, which does a pretty good job getting water to boiling temp so I can only imagine what the outdoor 30k+ BTU burners kick out.

I ferment in a water filled rope bucket on the first floor of my house. During the first few days of fermentation I toss in frozen water bottles to keep the temp down. I was thinking about the following purchases in order of priority:

- 30-32qt kettle for full boils - $135
- outdoor burner - $50
- converted cooler for all-grain - $80
- fermentation temperature control - $100 to $150 with temp controller

I don't have a lot of disposable income right now so the kettle is going to hurt a bit. I found a stainless 30qt Polarware with ball valve and thermometer for $135 shipped.

Does this sound about right? Am I missing something? I'm still reluctant to take the next steps because I'm making pretty good beer on my cooktop. There are advantages to how simple my current process is with partial mashes. I can brew indoors while watching TV, the natural gas is cheaper and doesn't run out, I don't have a ton of equipment to deal with and of course it's cheaper in the short run because I don't have to buy all this equipment.

 

[mojotele]

Well, there are lots of ways to save and stuff, and I can spot a few. But, my first question is - why do you want to go all-grain? If you're happy with the beer you're making now, as you say, what do you expect to get out of all-grain?

 

[snowveil]

really the only important thing that you need right now, if you want to experiment with a 3 gallon batch, is the mash tun. You could even use the Brew in a Bag method, deathbrewer has an excellent tutorial on the forums so check it out.

Obviously for full boils you'll want at least a 30qt pot. Temperature control for the fermentation will be no different whether your extract or AG, so you can take that out of the equation as far as the "switch to AG" topic goes.

IMO, search craigslist or yard sales for a cooler first. I got a 48qt coleman cooler from a buddy of mine for free so it only cost me about 30 bucks to put a stainless braid and a copper ball valve assembly on it. Add to that a $30 aluminum 30qt brewkettle and I went from extract straight to AG for about 60 bucks. There are definitely pieces of bling equipment that you can buy but they're really not necessary....just a luxury.

But then again...if you're happy with your beer why change it? I personally got pretty much the same flavor from two of my extract batches that had totally different "grain bills", yeasts, and hop schedules...so I decided that it was time to get away from extract. But if you're making beer that you enjoy already, unless you want more flexibility and/or the fun of doing every step individually you are still brewing beer

 

[RDWHAHB]

Spend time on craigslist getting a burner+fryer pot (6gal). The can be found for $25-50. You don't need valves, and you can upgrade later.

 

[Indyking]

I have twelve extract/partial mash batches under my belt and I'm trying to plan the next steps to eventually go all grain. I have the following:

5 gallon kettle
25ft copper wort chiller
2x 6.5 gallon primary buckets
1x 5 gallon better bottle secondary
1x bottling bucket

I currently do partial boils on my gas cooktop. It has a 15,000 BTU center burner, which does a pretty good job getting water to boiling temp so I can only imagine what the outdoor 30k+ BTU burners kick out.

I ferment in a water filled rope bucket on the first floor of my house. During the first few days of fermentation I toss in frozen water bottles to keep the temp down. I was thinking about the following purchases in order of priority:

- 30-32qt kettle for full boils - $135
- outdoor burner - $50
- converted cooler for all-grain - $80
- fermentation temperature control - $100 to $150 with temp controller

I don't have a lot of disposable income right now so the kettle is going to hurt a bit. I found a stainless 30qt Polarware with ball valve and thermometer for $135 shipped.

Does this sound about right? Am I missing something? I'm still reluctant to take the next steps because I'm making pretty good beer on my cooktop. There are advantages to how simple my current process is with partial mashes. I can brew indoors while watching TV, the natural gas is cheaper and doesn't run out, I don't have a ton of equipment to deal with and of course it's cheaper in the short run because I don't have to buy all this equipment.

I'm in the same process with similar dilemmas. You mentioned the converted cooler for all grain for 80 bucks. Is that what you plan to build or something you found ready with that price? Thanks.

 

[Hammy71]

An 8 gallon pot will work for the short term and many all grain brewers are happy with that size pot. I found mine to be limiting. Depending what your boil off rate is it may or may not be enough. Some use Fermcap to keep the boils under control and that might be a route you may want to look into. The temperature control is a really nice addition (I'm assuming you have an old fridge to use it with). I brew in my garage all year, cold in the winter and hot in the summer, and have a TV, laptop, and stereo to pass the time. I probably spend more time out there than in the house...lol. While it's true that sticking with extract will save you money in the short run, once your equipment is bought....all grain is cheaper by far. Plus, I have just as much fun milling, mashing, and sparging as I do drinking!!

 

[Teaman]

I just did the all grain switch. About the same setup you are planning.

I got a 36 qt Bayou Classic stainless steel pot from my local brew shop for $99.99 and a Bayou Classic turkey cooker for about $70.
Look at the Bayou Classic website. They are probably a little less than that directly from them. I just like to support the local store so they don't go away.

If I were you I would get at least a 36 qt pot. I'm glad I did when I realized I was boiling off 4 qts per hour. Once it starts rolling the extra room will help from getting a boil over so quickly.

As far as the temp controller mine was about $75 I think. It is the regular dial one. Not the digital one. It works great.

I think you could get the pot, cooker and temp controller for under $250 total.

 

[OHIOSTEVE]

I bought a new stainless steel turkey fryer with a NICE heavy duty stand and an 8 gallon pot off of graigslist for 50 bucks. The ball valves are nice but I brew inside as much as on the outside burner and I just lift and pour in my inside pots, and yes they are full boils. Also check for a used cooler somewhere . At one time I had 3-4 laying around here in various stages of brokenness. IMO your biggest expense will be ( if you are patient and don't jump in) a grain mill. everything else you can find cheap or free. Heck I found a huge supply of 6.5 gallon carboys for 3 bucks each on craigslist... I was GIVEN 3 5 gallon ones today ( have one 2 supposed to be coming)

 

[NorCalAngler]

Thanks for the quick replies and help. To answer a couple of the questions, my main urge to go all gain is flexibility of ingredients/process. For example, brewing my Saison I could control the mash temp of my partial mash, but the extract is still going to leave too much residual sugar for the style. All grain just provides a lot more flexibility. The second reason is price per batch. Extract is really expensive. If I can squeak 70%+ efficiency out of an all grain setup then my grain bill gets chopped in half. It will take a lot of batches to pay for the equipment. If I'm being honest with myself it probably never will pay for itself because what will I want to buy next?

The lingering comment is "if I am happy with the beer I'm making now, why switch?" That and cost is my main hang-up. By nature I want to make the best beer I can and I know extract brewing is not the way to create the best beer. It can make good, even great beer, but most of that is in the brewer's attention to detail and technique, not the extract itself.

 

[bmud0314]

I hear ya, I wanted to up the game and make potentially better beer (not that my extracts were bad). What I did: New 40 qt pot (50 bucks shipped) and 8 bucks to make a bag for BIAB. I do stove top, but you could probably find a turkey fryer with pot used on craiglist for that 50 bucks. So, you could do it on the cheap (less expensive, not lower quality).

 

[mojotele]

Thanks for the quick replies and help. To answer a couple of the questions, my main urge to go all gain is flexibility of ingredients/process. For example, brewing my Saison I could control the mash temp of my partial mash, but the extract is still going to leave too much residual sugar for the style. All grain just provides a lot more flexibility. The second reason is price per batch. Extract is really expensive. If I can squeak 70%+ efficiency out of an all grain setup then my grain bill gets chopped in half. It will take a lot of batches to pay for the equipment. If I'm being honest with myself it probably never will pay for itself because what will I want to buy next?

The lingering comment is "if I am happy with the beer I'm making now, why switch?" That and cost is my main hang-up. By nature I want to make the best beer I can and I know extract brewing is not the way to create the best beer. It can make good, even great beer, but most of that is in the brewer's attention to detail and technique, not the extract itself.

Right on. I just wanted to make sure you weren't making a big money investment for the wrong reasons. I wouldn't want you to end up disappointed.

One place you can save is by going the keggle route. If you can get your hands on a keg and have the means to cut the top off, that will save you a lot of money on a pot. Search the forums on making a keggle, there's lots of good info.

Also, I don't see why you'd spend $80 on an MLT. Seems like it should be a lot cheaper. All you need is a sizable cooler, the fittings, and a braid. Check out my post here about building a simple MLT for batch sparging.

After that, you really only need pots for heating your strike and sparge water. You already have one. Get another aluminum pot for heating your second batch sparge. Shouldn't cost much.

 

[JonK331]

A cheap way to get a MLT going is to do the Papazian Zapap. Two food grade plastic buckets, one with a spigot and the other with lots of holes drilled in the bottom to act as a false bottom. All for around $25 and a little bit of work. I started with this thinking I would upgrade to a cooler but it has worked so well I don't think I will ever switch. Never a stuck sparge, excellent efficiency, easy to store and clean, cheap, tried and true by Papazian himself. I also tend to think that the plastic in the buckets is better quality than the coolers. If you go with this method you will also have some extra money to put into your kettle, which I think is the most important part.

 

[NorCalAngler]

A cheap way to get a MLT going is to do the Papazian Zapap. Two food grade plastic buckets, one with a spigot and the other with lots of holes drilled in the bottom to act as a false bottom. All for around $25 and a little bit of work.

Thank you for this! I don't know how I haven't come across this method in my obsessed homebrew reading online, but this is new to me. My Google search for "Papazian Zapap" turned up this gem of an article that almost addresses all of my questions as if he was responding to my post!

http://www.brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue6.5/depiro.html

 

[Timboosh]

This time of year, keep an eye out deals/sales on coolers to make a mash tun. It's tailgate season after all. I think 2-3 weeks ago Sports Authority was running a 25% off deal on all coolers (at least in my area...)

I made mine out of a 36qt igloo marine cooler that I got on the cheap. between that, all the necessary brass fittings and making a CPVC manifold, I think it cost me about $50-60. I've done a whopping 1 all grain batch with it, but it seems to work quite well.

I kinda like the dual bucket idea though... I actually really like the dual bucket idea...

 

[Indyking]

Also, I don't see why you'd spend $80 on an MLT. Seems like it should be a lot cheaper. All you need is a sizable cooler, the fittings, and a braid. Check out my post here about building a simple MLT for batch sparging..

Your post to my thread was indeed very helpful, thanks, but the cooler and the stainless fittings (bulkhead, valve, hose barb, and brass) together costs just a little less than $80 plus the work to build the tun, which seems pretty easy though. Just a good 10 gal cooler (which is important of course) costs more than 50 bucks in most places I looked at so far. So, I would say $80 is pretty accurate.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00002N9F4/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[Indyking]

I just got the plunge! :rockin:

Now I'm ready to switch to AG, but before that I have at least 1 or maybe 2 extract brews to finish up my stock of malt extracts...

I was in the search for a mash tun, turkey fryer, and chiller to upgrade but it turns out I found a deal on craigslist for the whole AG brewing set up including lot of things I din't have and things I did have but it's nice to have an spare. The price for buying the whole lot was lot more attractive than just buying the things I wanted separately, I mean, a lot!. The deal also included a old, but functional, fridge with a temperature controller, but I will have to transport the fridge on its side because I don't have a truck, just a minivan. I know the compressor may be damaged by transporting it that way, but I was willing to take the risk because the temp controller is more important than the old fridge itself... Does anyone have any advice for transporting a fridge on its side without damaging it?

 

[dzlater]

Let the fridge sit for a day before turning it on.

 

[Indyking]

Let the fridge sit for a day before turning it on.

Yep, good point. I was also told that I have to drive slowly and avoid rogh pavement because the compressor on its side is more prone to shift and damage.

 

[Bob]

The most important piece of brewing equipment you can buy - outside of the basics you've already got - is fermentation temperature control.

The key to brewing great beer, whether it's all-grain, extract, or a mix of both, is managing your ferment. There are several keys to that, including pitch rate, but temperature control is crucial.

In fact, the first question I ask brewers looking to "upgrade" to all-grain brewing is "How are you controlling your ferment?" If I get a blank look or an answer like "swamp cooler" I tell them to stop dreaming about mash tuns and RIMS systems and get a fridge and controller. You can make yeast starters with a couple of brewpub growlers and an hour's work. But if you're going to go to all that trouble just to lose control of the ferment later, what's the point?

So good on yer for getting that part done. I suggest you reduce the amount of variables in your upgrade and get used to controlling the ferment before you start adding in more equipment and procedures. Makes the learning curve far more shallow, which will result in better beer.

Have fun!

Bob

 

[DrawTap88]

$40 Home Depot 10 gal cooler. There is a vendor on these boards that sell the fittings to convert the cooler for a lot cheaper than it cost me in time and gas to track everything down myself at the local hardware stores...and theirs is better.

Look around for for some good burners. They're worth the money, but you don't have to over do it. I use a Bayou SQ14 that works wonderfully.

I also saved some dough by getting an aluminum pot instead of stainless steel. The money I saved on the pot I was able to put towards a grain crusher, which you will inevitably want to get so you can further gain control of your brewhouse efficiency.

If you haven't already gotten a good thermometer, get one. It doesn't have to be top of the line, but it does have to work, be water proof and be reliable.

+1 on fermentation control, but if you're extract batches are turning out fine with your swamp cooler, you can make due with that until you decide to upgrade...again.

I also suggest getting a kegerator, because bottling sucks, and you're way cooler when you have a kegerator. Plus, you can force carb your beers and get to drink them a lot faster than when they bottle condition.

Good luck.

 

[hal2814]

I went all grain back somewhere around 2004 after about two years of brewing extract and it was a horrible experience. I didn't understand the process well enough and got caught up in technique and equipment. The result was a nightmare of not knowing how to handle irregularities, crappy efficiency (40%-50%), and terrible off-flavors like tannins. As a result, I gave up on all-grain until two years ago.

When I came back to all-grain, I decided to learn more about what is happening in the mash and looked for the simplest and cheapest methods possible. I used a bag setup similar to deathbrewer's method except that I mashed and sparged in a 5 gallon water cooler with a paint strainer bag in it instead of mashing and sparging directly in the kettle. I also started out with a partial mash since my old low efficiency problem was on my mind. I even went ahead and bought enough extract to make up a full batch as a worst case scenario for that first PM. If I failed again, I was out a paint strainer bag and a little grain.

Well, I didn't fail. It worked! The process went well and the next batch was a full-blown all-grain. I eventually used up the remainder of my extract and haven't bought more since. I brew more beer than I ever did as an extract brewer and have more fun doing it. That's not to knock brewing with extract. I just realized all-grain was for me.

My advice would be to find the simplest method you can based on the equipment you already have. With your stated equipment, I'd start out with some stovetop PM batches and go from there. To use a golf analogy, stick with the cheap clubs until you know enough about your swing to know what shafts, club heads, and grips will work best for you.

 

[Indyking]

My advice would be to find the simplest method you can based on the equipment you already have. With your stated equipment, I'd start out with some stovetop PM batches and go from there. To use a golf analogy, stick with the cheap clubs until you know enough about your swing to know what shafts, club heads, and grips will work best for you.

I would agree, except I didn't get just the basics to upgrade to AG because it happened to be the best deal I could get for used equipment, so now I just have to make sure I understand well how everythings works before making the actual transition.

The equipment lot I got came with a lot of extras from someone who appeared to be doing some pretty serious brewing, like for instance, dedicated sparging cooler with professionally built sparging arm, Ph meter, refractometer, etc, none of which I was planning to ever acquire. He has even won some regional beer competitions.

Anyway, I can't wait to go AG!

 

[Bob]

The equipment lot I got came with a lot of extras from someone who appeared to be doing some pretty serious brewing, like for instance, dedicated sparging cooler with professionally built sparging arm, Ph meter, refractometer, etc, none of which I was planning to ever acquire. He has even won some regional beer competitions.

Dude, learn to use that refractometer. You will love it. Especially if you fly-sparge. I use mine all over the brewhouse, to determine everything from when my runoff has reached a desired gravity to if I've hit my pre-boil kettle gravity on the nose. Sooooooo much better than a hydrometer!

Bob

 

[Indyking]

Dude, learn to use that refractometer. You will love it. Especially if you fly-sparge. I use mine all over the brewhouse, to determine everything from when my runoff has reached a desired gravity to if I've hit my pre-boil kettle gravity on the nose. Sooooooo much better than a hydrometer!

Bob

The dude who sold me the stuff kept saying "you are going to thank me that you have a refractometer now for AG brewing, it does make a lot of difference"

 

[ian-atx]

+1 on the refractometer. It is so handy to hit it with some run off and quickly see where you are at.

 

[DrawTap88]

Refractometer is HUGE. I love mine.

 

[NorCalAngler]

Well I appreciate all the responses. I used the tutorial on here to build a 10 gallon mash tun. Like most DIY projects I wish I had just purchased a prebuilt conversion bulkhead, but I was too far invested. It doesn't leak so it's ready for a maiden voyage.

 

[rosevillain]

Nice. There was a turkey fryer on Craigslist in Roseville, is it yours now?

 

[mojotele]

Like most DIY projects I wish I had just purchased a prebuilt conversion bulkhead, but I was too far invested.

Yeah, man, I learned that one the hard way too. Frickin' Home Depot never has the parts you need, and you end up driving all over the place looking for a washer or something stupid.

But all is well that ends well. Enjoy your cold beer!