Need Help - 1st Time Building With RO Water - Stout

[Wargoul]

Disclaimer: I am diving head first in water chemistry and doing my best to not be overwhelmed. Please excuse any newbie mistakes.

Below are screenshots of all relevant info placed into Bru'n Water. I hope that I am inputting everything correctly for a 100% RO water base. If anyone can please let me know if I am on the right track that would be great.

Comments on the above photos


1. Water Report Input - Did Not Touch

2. Sparge Acidification - Did Not Touch

3. Water Adjustment - According to the Mash Acidification tab, I had to raise my alkalinity to get the PH in range. I am in Canada and cannot seem to find Pickling Lime. I have found Kalkwasser on an online shop but do not know if this is appropriate for brewing. I have shown chalk additions even though I have read some strong opinions to not use it due to the difficulty in dissolving it in water. This article from Braukaiser lays out a way to dissolve chalk with the help of CO2. Any guidance on what to do here would be great.

4. Mash Acidification - Big grain bill, I know. This is for a Tart Cherry Stout I am making, EST OG 1.069 (ABV 7.6%) based on my system average efficiency of 68%.


If any further information is required from me please let me know. If anyone can provide me with some feedback on whether I am on the right track, I would appreciate it greatly.

Edit: Needed to fix 4th image.

 

[ajdelange]

A stout from RO is pretty simple. I'm assuming you will mash with about 5.5 gal (US) RO water. All you really need to add to that is about a gram each CaCl2 and a gram of CaSO4. This will give you a little over 2 mEq/L calcium (40 mg/L) with 40 mg/L sulfate and 46 mg/L chloride. These are good starting points.

Mash pH for your grain bill is estimated at 5.38. That's certainly acceptable but it is only an estimate. Should your base malt be unusually acidic the pH could be lower than this and, conversely, should it be unusually alkaline then it could be higher. Absolutely the best way to proceed is to make a small test mash and check it with a pH meter. Absent that if you want to shoot for something a little higher, say 5.5, to be on the safe side then some alkali will be needed, about 56 mEq for an estimated mash pH of 5.5. Given that you are mashing with about 20L of water that is 2.8 mEq/L. Were you to use sodium bicarbonate (i.e. add 2.8 mEq/L bicarbonate as the alkali) you would also get 2.8 mEq/L sodium which is 2.8*23 = 64 mg/L which isn't too bad and that is doubtless the simplest way get to 5.5. For the full mash water volume this would be 4.7 grams of sodium bicarbonate. Or perhaps you might want to use half that amount for an estimated mash pH of 5.44 and a lower level of sodium.

Assuming you can't obtain calcium hydroxide you might try magnesium hydroxide. To neutralize the extra 56 mEq of acid will take 56 mEq of Mg(OH)2 leaving 56 mEq of Mg++ ions which is 34 mg/L - again not too bad. If you can buy Mg(OH)2 at the pharmacy without added mint or whatever as flavoring you are in good shape. Otherwise, it is easy enough to make from epsom salts and lye.

Lime (CaO which becomes Ca(OH)2 upon exposure to water) can be made by heating limestone (chalk) to red/orange heat. That's easy enough to get with a propane or MAPP gas torch. The trick is to find something to put it in while you are heating it.

Calcium bicarbonate is ideal for the job of adding modest alkalinity because we don't usually mind at all if calcium level goes up. As you noted, you can make calcium bicarbonate by dissolving limestone (chalk) under CO2 pressure. In fact that's how nature does it which suggests that a good source of some calcium bicarbonate may be your tap water. In fact many of us that brew with RO water for almost everything else use our tap water or a blend of our tap and RO waters to do stouts. If you water has lots of temporary hardness and little permanent hardness and is low in other undesirables such as sodium this is often a good way to go.

To wrap up: you probably don't have to do anything. Just add the gypsum and calcium chloride and brew. A small amount of sodium bicarbonate will give you a some protection against pH going too low. pH can be raised in many other ways. They involve various degrees of manipulation. Blending with tap water is viable if the tap water is suitable and you know how to calculate how much to blend. That's pretty simple to figure out.

 

[Wargoul]

Thank you for the reply. Unfortunately, I do not have a report of my tap water.

When you say a gram of CaCl2 and a gram of CaSO4, are you referring to the mash water only? Should this be added to the sparge water as well?

 

[ajdelange]

Unfortunately, I do not have a report of my tap water.

That's one of the big advantages of RO water. It doesn't matter what your feed water is doing as long as the RO output is low enough in TDS that you can consider it ion free.

When you say a gram of CaCl2 and a gram of CaSO4, are you referring to the mash water only? Should this be added to the sparge water as well?

I was, yes, but it wouldn't hurt to put them into the sparge water as well.

 

[Wargoul]

That's one of the big advantages of RO water. It doesn't matter what your feed water is doing as long as the RO output is low enough in TDS that you can consider it ion free.

I was, yes, but it wouldn't hurt to put them into the sparge water as well.

I have had good success with dark beers using my tap water in the past, and it has usually been my lighter beers that suffered which is why I'm deciding to jump into to using RO water.

I am close to Toronto, and have a tap water profile available from them. I'm not sure if it would be safe to assume mine would be close. But here it is:

Here are the latest UNOFFICIAL results (Tested 19/05/2016):
Calcium (Ca) = 35.9 ppm
Magnesium (Mg) = 9.11 ppm
Sodium (Na) = 13.5 ppm
Sulphate (SO4) = 26.3 ppm
Chloride (Cl) = 25.0 ppm
Alkalinity = 87.3 ppm
Jan 1 to May 19, 2016 pH range: 7.30 pH to 7.75 pH, with an average of 7.5 pH

Would you recommend I try a blend for this stout rather than 100% RO water?

 

[artichoke]

I live in Vancouver BC and we have very soft water.

This is excellent water for pale beers, but for dark beers they turn out thin, acidic, biting and just not that pleasant to drink. Unfortunately a lot of local stouts I drink seem to suffer from this problem as well.

From my experience, my dark beers (stouts, porters, etc) improved immensely by adding baking soda to the mash to hit ~5.5-5.6 mash pH.

- Artichoke

 

[ajdelange]

Here are the latest UNOFFICIAL results (Tested 19/05/2016):
Calcium (Ca) = 35.9 ppm
Magnesium (Mg) = 9.11 ppm
Sodium (Na) = 13.5 ppm
Sulphate (SO4) = 26.3 ppm
Chloride (Cl) = 25.0 ppm
Alkalinity = 87.3 ppm
Jan 1 to May 19, 2016 pH range: 7.30 pH to 7.75 pH, with an average of 7.5 pH

Would you recommend I try a blend for this stout rather than 100% RO water?

For a typical stout this water should give you a mash pH of about 5.5 so I'd try the tap water as is first. The only way to know for sure what is happening is to use a pH meter.

 

[mabrungard]

I live in Vancouver BC and we have very soft water.

This is excellent water for pale beers, but for dark beers they turn out thin, acidic, biting and just not that pleasant to drink. Unfortunately a lot of local stouts I drink seem to suffer from this problem as well.

From my experience, my dark beers (stouts, porters, etc) improved immensely by adding baking soda to the mash to hit ~5.5-5.6 mash pH.

- Artichoke

In the appropriate style, adding an alkali to the mashing water can make a huge difference when your starting water has low alkalinity. You can't brew most porters or stouts without having enough alkalinity in the mashing water. The wort and beer pH will end up too low which do result in the problems mentioned above.