Need advice on water profile.

[Althozgraz]

okay so i have been making great beer for years now and never went into water chemistry and have never adjusted my water chemistry, until now. i cant make a good lager to save my life they always turn out okay but never have that dry crisp taste of a commercial german example. I looked into my cities 2018 water report (thats the newest one) and heres the info.

Bicarbonate as HCO3 -125
Calcium-40.3
Chloride-27.4
Hardness (as CACO3)-146
Magnesium-10.9
Nickel- 0.00399
PH- 9.6
Potassium- 8.9
Sodium - 63.5
Sulfate -155
Zinc- 0.00569

i know my pH is high which i can fix with acid of some sort but with a typical mash for a beer roughly where would i land PH wise in once im mashed in?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Mash pH should be about 5.4 when measured at room temperature. When to measure it is debated.

FYI Sauergut is a necessary flavor component of German lagers.

You may also want to look into low oxygen brewing.

 

[Jag75]

I had my actual water checked by ward labs . It was evident why my light beers were just ok and my stout came out great . My water isnt great for the light stuff . I started using programs to adjust my water and the beer started improving. I mostly use RO water and build from there . It's the easiest way imo. When I make a stout I just use tap water and roll with it . Check out brew science section. Those guys in there can be helpful on your water report. Also a sticky in there called water primer or something to that nature .

 

[Althozgraz]

Mash pH should be about 5.4 when measured at room temperature. When to measure it is debated.

FYI Sauergut is a necessary flavor component of German lagers.

You may also want to look into low oxygen brewing.

In other words the only way ill know if im around that 5.4 mark is if i mash in with the grain bill of the brew day and measure post mash in?

 

[RPh_Guy]

A variety of applications can help you predict how much acid/base you need to achieve a particular mash pH based on your grain bill and water. I use Brun Water.

These programs only provide an estimate, so yes, measuring it is the only way to know. Pull and chill a small sample after 15-60 minutes to test it.
Unless you dough in under gelatinization temp, there's really no way to adjust mash pH on the fly because conversion will have already taken place. Just make an adjustment the next time if needed. (Although, malt varies from lot to lot, so it may never be possible to hit it exactly... unless you do a small test mash beforehand, which seems like overkill.)

Hope this makes sense.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

In other words the only way ill know if im around that 5.4 mark is if i mash in with the grain bill of the brew day and measure post mash in?

Mash pH assistant software can give you a ballpark heads-up in advance. This allows for 'nominal' adjustment to be made preferably pre-mash, or alternatively very early on in the mash. Most of the saccharification taking place within the mash is over by the 20 minute mark, but valid indications of mash pH come only at the 30 minute mark or later, so by the time pH is assessed the mash is effectively over, and changes made late will not alter the past.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

The 9.6 water pH is very close to irrelevant as to its ability to move mash pH. Alkalinity (which in good measure is unrelated to water pH) is the real concern with respect to its capacity to drive mash pH upward.

How little does alkalinity correlate to water pH? As an example, my well water has 377 ppm alkalinity, and a measured pH of only 7.7. That's right close to pH neutral, but there aren't many water sources with that much alkalinity.

You will also need to acid neutralize sparge water to a pH of ballpark 5.4 to 5.6.

 

[Althozgraz]

The 9.6 water pH is very close to irrelevant as to its ability to move mash pH. Alkalinity (which in good measure is unrelated to water pH) is the real concern with respect to its capacity to drive mash pH upward.

How little does alkalinity correlate to water pH? As an example, my well water has 377 ppm alkalinity, and a measured pH of only 7.7. That's right close to pH neutral, but there aren't many water sources with that much alkalinity.

You will also need to acid neutralize sparge water to a pH of ballpark 5.4 to 5.6.

interesting, im not sure if this is the same but in my water report it says this at the very top

Alkalinity-(ppm) - source=286- range - 200-286
finished=117 - range 49-117

so does indicate that my alkalinity is 117?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

interesting, im not sure if this is the same but in my water report it says this at the very top

Alkalinity-(ppm) - source=286- range - 200-286
finished=117 - range 49-117

so does indicate that my alkalinity is 117?

I'm not sure what it means. It may mean that your water authority is acid neutralizing some portion of the alkalinity.

That ranges are given indicates (most likely) that they are blending from more than one source. Alternately it can mean that your water changes seasonally, as would be the case for mountain run-off water.

Best to call them for an explanation.

Alkalinity (as CaCO3) = bicarbonate (as HCO3-) * 50/61

My wells 377 ppm alkalinity equals 460 ppm bicarbonate.

 

[Althozgraz]

I'm not sure what it means. It may mean that your water authority is acid neutralizing some portion of the alkalinity.

That ranges are given indicates (most likely) that they are blending from more than one source. Alternately it can mean that your water changes seasonally, as would be the case for mountain run-off water.

Best to call them for an explanation.

Alkalinity (as CaCO3) = bicarbonate (as HCO3-) * 50/61

My wells 377 ppm alkalinity equals 460 ppm bicarbonate.

aaaah that makes sense, i know we get lots of run off in the spring from the massive amount of snow we get plus last year they released lake water into our source to alleviate flooding.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

aaaah that makes sense, i know we get lots of run off in the spring from the massive amount of snow we get plus last year they released lake water into our source to alleviate flooding.

Wildly variable water unfortunately means that you will never firmly know what the actual analyticals are from day to day.

 

[mabrungard]

interesting, im not sure if this is the same but in my water report it says this at the very top

Alkalinity-(ppm) - source=286- range - 200-286
finished=117 - range 49-117

so does indicate that my alkalinity is 117?

Yes, water suppliers do adjust the finished water chemistry to avoid corroding or scaling their water lines. In the case above, it appears they neutralized some alkalinity to keep the lines from scaling up.