My first dumper today: a sad lesson but not what I expected

[clickondan]

It was a 5.5 gallon AG Nut Brown Ale. Tasted amazing throughout the process. I had a blowoff tube going into Star San. Forgot to replace that with an airlock before cold crashing and the negative pressure sucked back in about 2 quarts of Star San.

I tasted & smelled the jug of Star San and it was fine, still effective, so I figured I was fine, as the sucked-back Star San would just stratify and I could rack underneath it.

Sure enough, it layered out and I racked underneath it and bottled because the beer tasted great.

3 weeks later (today), it's fully carbonated, I chill one, crack it open... SOAP! It tastes so much like soap that I might use it as soap.

Reflecting back, I realize what happened. Krausen and yeast pushed through the blowoff tube during fermentation, and lysed as it sat in the Star San. Then, the negative pressure sucked back all the lysed yeast, along with some "perfectly fine" Star San. Why I didn't taste it when bottling, I'm not sure.

A sad day to be sure, but on the upside, I did get to experience the off flavor of lysed yeast in a big way. Probably doesn't happen every day, and I can file it away as experience.

 

[BadNewsBrewery]

It was a 5.5 gallon AG Nut Brown Ale. Tasted amazing throughout the process. I had a blowoff tube going into Star San. Forgot to replace that with an airlock before cold crashing and the negative pressure sucked back in about 2 quarts of Star San.

I tasted & smelled the jug of Star San and it was fine, still effective, so I figured I was fine, as the sucked-back Star San would just stratify and I could rack underneath it.

Sure enough, it layered out and I racked underneath it and bottled because the beer tasted great.

3 weeks later (today), it's fully carbonated, I chill one, crack it open... SOAP! It tastes so much like soap that I might use it as soap.

Reflecting back, I realize what happened. Krausen and yeast pushed through the blowoff tube during fermentation, and lysed as it sat in the Star San. Then, the negative pressure sucked back all the lysed yeast, along with some "perfectly fine" Star San. Why I didn't taste it when bottling, I'm not sure.

A sad day to be sure, but on the upside, I did get to experience the off flavor of lysed yeast in a big way. Probably doesn't happen every day, and I can file it away as experience.

Did the same thing with 10gal of a hefe, sucked back half a liter of idopho/water, hoped I could recover, and ended up watering the lawn with it a few weeks later. First dumped batch in 8 years, I was a sad man. I feel your pain.

 

[BrewCityBaller]

I did the same thing with my house IPA. One and only batch I have every dumped.

It's a hard way to learn a lesson, but I promise you'll never do it again!

 

[guitarguy6]

I had my first AG dump yesterday. Not sure what went wrong but when I transferred it into the secondary I tasted a sample and it was awful. The only thing I could think of was my buddy wanted to try something to get the trub to whirlpool into the middle of the kettle. He attached what looked like a giant beater to a drill and let that sucker rip for a good 5min. It frothed the cooled wort like crazy which I believe caused oxidization. What do you guys think?

 

[KeninMN]

I had my first AG dump yesterday. Not sure what went wrong but when I transferred it into the secondary I tasted a sample and it was awful. The only thing I could think of was my buddy wanted to try something to get the trub to whirlpool into the middle of the kettle. He attached what looked like a giant beater to a drill and let that sucker rip for a good 5min. It frothed the cooled wort like crazy which I believe caused oxidization. What do you guys think?

Aerating before pitching the yeast is a good thing. The more the better. Something else happened...

 

[mtyquinn]

I've had to dump a couple 10 gallon batches. It's painful, but there's something cool about knowing enough that you don't have to drink crappy beer - you learn and keep brewing. Sláinte.

 

[pvpeacock]

I had my first AG dump yesterday. Not sure what went wrong but when I transferred it into the secondary I tasted a sample and it was awful. The only thing I could think of was my buddy wanted to try something to get the trub to whirlpool into the middle of the kettle. He attached what looked like a giant beater to a drill and let that sucker rip for a good 5min. It frothed the cooled wort like crazy which I believe caused oxidization. What do you guys think?

A paint stirrer on a drill works great BEFORE fermentation to: 1. dough in; 2. batch sparge; 3. speed cooling of your wort with an immersion chiller; 4. whirlpool; and, 5. aerate the wort. However, AFTER fermentation, all it is doing is oxygenating (aka ruining) your beer. bummer.

 

[guitarguy6]

Aerating before pitching the yeast is a good thing. The more the better. Something else happened...

I thought I read in a few books that the aeration is only good if the wort is at a cooler temp. The wort was somewhere around 175F when he started.

 

[CrypticIntent]

I had my first AG dump yesterday. Not sure what went wrong but when I transferred it into the secondary I tasted a sample and it was awful. The only thing I could think of was my buddy wanted to try something to get the trub to whirlpool into the middle of the kettle. He attached what looked like a giant beater to a drill and let that sucker rip for a good 5min. It frothed the cooled wort like crazy which I believe caused oxidization. What do you guys think?

I think sanitation is more worrisome in this case than oxidation. Yeast do use oxygen as a catalyst to speed up the process, so oxidation during pitching is not nearly as much of a concern as it in transferring after primary.

Also what sort of "awful" taste was it?

 

[pvpeacock]

guitarguy6, did your buddy use the drill/stirrer before you pitched the yeast? You indicated that you were transferring the beer to secondary which I assumed meant it had already been fermenting. If your buddy stirred BEFORE you pitched the yeast, that should not be the problem. I use my drill/stirrer with my immersion chiller to cool it quicker starting at boiling temperature and have never had a problem.

 

[guitarguy6]

guitarguy6, did your buddy use the drill/stirrer before you pitched the yeast? You indicated that you were transferring the beer to secondary which I assumed meant it had already been fermenting. If your buddy stirred BEFORE you pitched the yeast, that should not be the problem. I use my drill/stirrer with my immersion chiller to cool it quicker starting at boiling temperature and have never had a problem.

It was after the boil during cooling. This is what I found:

You should not aerate when the wort is hot, or even warm. Aeration of hot wort will cause the oxygen to chemically bind to various wort compounds. Over time, these compounds will break down, freeing atomic oxygen back into the beer where it can oxidize the alcohols and hop compounds producing off-flavors and aromas like wet cardboard or sherry-like flavors. The generally accepted temperature cutoff for preventing hot wort oxidation is 80°F.

This falls in line with why I dumped it. It was supposed to be a pale ale but when transfering to secondary it smelled kind of like Leffe and tasted like beer mixed with copper and something else.

 

[JohnSand]

Back to the OP, you are lucky to only have dumped one batch. I've poured out a few, and have a couple more to go. My house is infected, (I blame the cat) and I have to be really careful. I was dumping bottles of Green Flash WCIPA clone today. Total brain blink, I dipped a sample with an unsanitized cup. The good news is that I've brewed it again, and it tastes amazing.

 

[jtratcliff]

no chance the soapiness would age out?

I had a blonde ale get infected... I think with lacto from our homemade sourdough. Turned into a somewhat decent sour. I kept sampling every month or so. By the end it was tasty enough (or I became desensitized to the awfulness ) that I ended up drinking all 5 gallons.

The one burnt-rubber batch I had (from using rinsed yeast that I subsequently mistreated) I drank as a lesson to never do that again

I'm in the don't dump unless you need the bottle/keg space camp... You've already sunk the cost into the ingredients, unless you *need* the bottles or keg that the *bad* batch would age in, why not see what comes of it? I won't be what you planned, it might not be the greatest brew ever, but it might turn out interesting... or at least drinkable.

 

[grimzella]

with my carboys.. I just use foil wrapped tightly around the neck when cold crashed. never had any issues to date. been a few years so far.

 

[Singletrack]

It was a 5.5 gallon AG Nut Brown Ale. Tasted amazing throughout the process. I had a blowoff tube going into Star San. Forgot to replace that with an airlock before cold crashing and the negative pressure sucked back in about 2 quarts of Star San.

I tasted & smelled the jug of Star San and it was fine, still effective, so I figured I was fine, as the sucked-back Star San would just stratify and I could rack underneath it.

Sure enough, it layered out and I racked underneath it and bottled because the beer tasted great.

3 weeks later (today), it's fully carbonated, I chill one, crack it open... SOAP! It tastes so much like soap that I might use it as soap.

Reflecting back, I realize what happened. Krausen and yeast pushed through the blowoff tube during fermentation, and lysed as it sat in the Star San. Then, the negative pressure sucked back all the lysed yeast, along with some "perfectly fine" Star San. Why I didn't taste it when bottling, I'm not sure.

A sad day to be sure, but on the upside, I did get to experience the off flavor of lysed yeast in a big way. Probably doesn't happen every day, and I can file it away as experience.

You say it sucked back 2 quarts? Seems unusual for a blowoff tube to be submerged that deep in Star San. Are you using a 5 gallon bucket for blowoff?

If you had replaced the blowoff tube with an airlock, it would have sucked back the contents of the airlock and left your beer unlocked. Is that what you do?

I leave my blowoff tube submerged in about 1/2 inch of Star San. In theory, if it sucks back, it will suck air before the Star San gets to the beer. Then, the Star San runs back into the blowoff jug, providing an airlock. I have not actually seen this work, but the tube is still is submerged in about 1/2 inch of Star San after cold crashing, so it seems to work.

 

[KeninMN]

I thought I read in a few books that the aeration is only good if the wort is at a cooler temp. The wort was somewhere around 175F when he started.

Okay, because your originally said:

It frothed the cooled wort like crazy which I believe caused oxidization.

Aerating cooled wort is good. Aerating hot wort is bad...

 

[imp81318]

Okay, because your originally said:



Aerating cooled wort is good. Aerating hot wort is bad...

I don't mean to hijack this thread, but I just brewed my second batch and decided to try a different technique for cooling my wort which was an utter failure. I poured about 2 gallons of nearly frozen water into my primary fermenter and then poured the hot wort through a strainer into the cold water to attempt to cool it down. The resulting temperature was around 120 degrees, which is when I moved it to an ice bath to get it cooled down to 68 degrees before pitching my yeast. Is it likely that I screwed up my batch by adding too much air while the wort was hot?

 

[brew_ny]

Is it likely that I screwed up my batch by adding too much air while the wort was hot?

no you want to add air at this time for the yeast you are going to pitch

that is why people use O2 tanks to aerate their wort before they pitch

it is after it becomes beer when you want to be careful

all the best

S_M

 

[rpe290]

Overall, I think the whole "cold crashing" phenomena is overrated, ESPECIALLY if you keg. Source of suck back, oxygen staling, and supposedly yeast can produce unwanted flavors from "shocking" it (not going slow with the temp drop).

If you keg your beer, simply transfer it to a keg warm, seal with CO2 and ease it down a bit. If you want to add finings, open lid and drop them in cold, reseal and you can pump any bits/finings out in the first half pint...at least this seems to be the best method I can find...

 

[imp81318]

no you want to add air at this time for the yeast you are going to pitch

that is why people use O2 tanks to aerate their wort before they pitch

it is after it becomes beer when you want to be careful

all the best

S_M

That's what I thought, but the poster I replied to indicated that adding oxygen before the wort has cooled can have the same effect on the beer as adding after you've pitched the yeast which is why I am a little bit worried.

 

[FiddlersGreen87]

I had my first AG dump yesterday. Not sure what went wrong but when I transferred it into the secondary I tasted a sample and it was awful. The only thing I could think of was my buddy wanted to try something to get the trub to whirlpool into the middle of the kettle. He attached what looked like a giant beater to a drill and let that sucker rip for a good 5min. It frothed the cooled wort like crazy which I believe caused oxidization. What do you guys think?

Hot Wort + Oxygen = Bad.

You should not aerate when the wort is hot, or even warm. Aeration of hot wort will cause the oxygen to chemically bind to various wort compounds. Over time, these compounds will break down, freeing atomic oxygen back into the beer where it can oxidize the alcohols and hop compounds producing off-flavors and aromas like wet cardboard or sherry-like flavors. The generally accepted temperature cutoff for preventing hot wort oxidation is 80°F.

http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter6-9-3.html

John Palmer 4TW. Read the rest of the page from that link if you want to get the rest of the details. In short, your buddy's brilliant idea ruined your beer.

 

[rpe290]

Hot Wort + Oxygen = Bad.



http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter6-9-3.html

John Palmer 4TW. Read the rest of the page from that link if you want to get the rest of the details.

One of the latest brew strong podcast (that is with John Palmer) talks about "hot side aeration" and how, while its not "preferable," it is nothing to lose sleep over.

If Charlie Bamforth says its not a big deal, I wouldn't worry too much about it.

 

[FiddlersGreen87]

One of the latest brew strong podcast (that is with John Palmer) talks about "hot side aeration" and how, while its not "preferable," it is nothing to lose sleep over.

If Charlie Bamforth says its not a big deal, I wouldn't worry too much about it.

I would agree if it was some simple splashing or something of that nature, and because you've provided a source. However in regards to Guitar's situation, his buddy whipped up a power tool that caused excellent aeration for a solid 5 minutes, just at the wrong time, which is how long I shake a carboy for to effectively aerate for fermentation. I'd say this is a bit more of the extreme side of the hot aeration, which is why Palmer mentions it in the first place. Just my thought process behind it though, could be wrong.

 

[brew_ny]

That's what I thought, but the poster I replied to indicated that adding oxygen before the wort has cooled can have the same effect on the beer as adding after you've pitched the yeast which is why I am a little bit worried.

I do 11.5 gallon batches and use a 5 gallon pail to get my wort from the brew kettle to my fermenter

I just dump them in and have not had a problem as of yet, from want I have read that on the homebrew level hot side aeration is a myth

but who knows I have only been brewing since July 2013, I have only done 35 batches and have not had a dumper yet or batch that I have had to force myself to drink

HomeBrewTalk is the greatest resource a homebrewer can get to learn from, other then actually brewing

all the best

S_M

 

[eric19312]

I would agree if it was some simple splashing or something of that nature, and because you've provided a source. However in regards to Guitar's situation, his buddy whipped up a power tool that caused excellent aeration for a solid 5 minutes, just at the wrong time, which is how long I shake a carboy for to effectively aerate for fermentation. I'd say this is a bit more of the extreme side of the hot aeration, which is why Palmer mentions it in the first place. Just my thought process behind it though, could be wrong.

The podcasts I have listened to from the likes of Palmer and Charlie indicate that to the extent hot side aeration is an issue it has to do with a reduction in shelf life and it is fairly subtle at homebrew scale at best. No was does that fit with off flavors mid fermentation. Also you dont oxygenate warm beer because it gas doesnt disolve easily in the warm beer. I suspect contamination may have been introduced by the procedure but I always suspect contamination.

 

[rpe290]

I would agree if it was some simple splashing or something of that nature, and because you've provided a source. However in regards to Guitar's situation, his buddy whipped up a power tool that caused excellent aeration for a solid 5 minutes, just at the wrong time, which is how long I shake a carboy for to effectively aerate for fermentation. I'd say this is a bit more of the extreme side of the hot aeration, which is why Palmer mentions it in the first place. Just my thought process behind it though, could be wrong.

yep, could exceed a threshold...

 

[FiddlersGreen87]

The podcasts I have listened to from the likes of Palmer and Charlie indicate that to the extent hot side aeration is an issue it has to do with a reduction in shelf life and it is fairly subtle at homebrew scale at best. No was does that fit with off flavors mid fermentation. Also you dont oxygenate warm beer because it gas doesnt disolve easily in the warm beer.

I'm not here for a debate with you, just trying to help GuitarGuy sort the issue out. Contamination is always a possible suspect. I'm citing the same source you are, and regardless if he did or didn't mention it on a recorded conversation, he did find it reasonable to keep it in his 3rd edition of a published book.

2 things to settle this.

1)

Also you dont oxygenate warm beer because it gas doesnt disolve easily in the warm beer

You should not aerate when the wort is hot, or even warm. Aeration of hot wort will cause the oxygen to chemically bind to various wort compounds

2)

No was does that fit with off flavors mid fermentation.

Over time, these compounds will break down, freeing atomic oxygen back into the beer where it can oxidize the alcohols and hop compounds producing off-flavors and aromas like wet cardboard or sherry-like flavors. The generally accepted temperature cutoff for preventing hot wort oxidation is 80°F.

I fully understand he may have discussed it in a different context on his podcast, but to come here and dismiss my cited source isn't helpful.

Back on topic, GuitarGuy, I am curious, were you able to identify specific off flavors? I've not caused hot oxidization (yet) and I'm curious about the results from your perspective. I'd rather learn from your results than test Palmer's by wetting cardboard and then chewing it.

 

[atoughram]

It was after the boil during cooling. This is what I found:

You should not aerate when the wort is hot, or even warm. Aeration of hot wort will cause the oxygen to chemically bind to various wort compounds.

I used my immersion cooler to aerate the wort for years by dunking it up and down - cools it much faster too.

 

[HexKrak]

Planning on cold crashing a beer overnight. Thanks so much for saying this or I would have probably made the same mistake.

 

[eric19312]

No need to debate

I do NOT recommend the practice of active splashing of hot wort and do work to minimize this in my home brewing. A balloon wire whip wisk is I guess the ultimate example and if the flavors are that of oxidation I guess it might be the culprit here. It sounds like a bad practice whether or not it was the cause of this batch tasting bad enough to dump when it was racked from primary to secondary.

But every caution I have heard about HSA is that "over time" it leads staling. How much time? Not sure but I was thinking this meant that a beer that should be room temperature shelf stable for 12 months might be noticeably stale at 6 months. I was not thinking this was staling something that happens during primary fermentation to the extent it is obvious at transfer.

Did you finally prove HSA is a real thing at homebrew scale and forever silence the many skeptics who think it might be a myth? Maybe. But there are more common causes of beer going bad that might be worth looking into.

Again - not debating Fiddlegreen87 - save that whisk for after wort is below 80.

 

[guitarguy6]

Back on topic, GuitarGuy, I am curious, were you able to identify specific off flavors? I've not caused hot oxidization (yet) and I'm curious about the results from your perspective. I'd rather learn from your results than test Palmer's by wetting cardboard and then chewing it.

Sadly I didn't have much time so I smelled it, tasted it, had a buddy do the same and immediately dumped it. MY buddy attached the following to a Dewalt drill and let her rip for a good 5 min. Of course it could be contamination but I've never had that issue before. We star san absolutely everything and don't have pets or fans or anything like that around.