My First Dubbel - For Your Review

[CZs]

Hey everyone - just want to say thanks again for reviewing my Pumpkin Saison and giving me advice - my next brew will most likely be a Dubbel - another favorite of mine

As I said about my Pumpkin Saison - I usually like to do a test brew first so I will probably be drinking this batch more green than I should be, but, I want to start taking notes and advice. My first overall question is - how long should this ferment, then age before I can get optimal complexity/flavor out of this style? And, is there any similarities in grain bill or flavors you can swap between this and a Dark Strong? Thanks in advance.

my "Dubbel Black Diamond" for Winter 2013/2014(Late November - February)

Boil Size 7.5 gallons
Batch Size 5.5 gallons
Boil Time - 75 min
OG 1.070
FG 1.017
ABV 7%
IBU 21.75
SRM 17
Yeast - 3787 Trappist High Gravity
Ferm Temp 70F
Proposed Ferm Time - 4 weeks/month
Proposed Bottle Conditioning Time - 4 weeks/month (my guess it will still be green) Your thoughts on how long you should let something like this sit?

Fermentables
6.25 lbs - Belgian Pils - 46.1%
5 lbs - Belgian Pale Ale - 36.9%
1 lb - Belgian Dark Candy Syrup - 7.4%
.25 lbs - Belgian Special B - 1.8%
.26 lbs - Belgian Aromatic - 1.9%
.26 lbs - Belgian Cara 20L - 1.9%
.26 lbs - UK Coffee Malt - 1.9%
4.5 oz - Clover Honey - 2.1%

Mash Steps
1. 125F - 25 min rest - 8qts
2. 150F - 75 min sach - 12 qts
3. 170F - Fly Sparge - 10 qts
Batch Sparge until reach desired clarity

Hops
1 oz Hallertau 55 min
1 oz Vanguard 20 min

Other Ingredients
Will be making the 1 lb of Dark Candi Syrup - was considering steeping 1/2 pound of black licorice into 2 qts of water, and adding 2.5 oz of Amaretto into the steeped water, using this steeped mix at cooldown stage before bringing up to soft crack and adding 1/2 lb of this candi syrup at 12 min, and the other 1/2 at 6 min. Then, adding my 4.5 oz of clover honey with 3 minutes left.

Thoughts anyone? Thanks!

 

[CZs]

any thoughts? any takers?

 

[Polboy]

i would skip clover, coffee and aromatic malt, make regular dark amber candi (without stuff u have in your recipe) and have og 1.072-1.080 range

 

[BlackGoat]

As far as how long it should ferment, this might sound like a stupid answer but it should ferment until it is done fermenting. You can't really put a time frame on it, a beer of this gravity would probably take 3 weeks or more to finish up, and your 4 weeks sounds like a good target. Just take gravity readings in the days leading up to bottling. As far as carbing the bottles, the standard is a minimum of 3 weeks at 70 degrees. If it were my beer, I'd target 4 weeks in the fermenter, and three weeks in the bottle before I popped my first one open. At 7% abv I would likely age it for another 2 months in the bottle before serving it to anyone if you really want to let the flavors to mellow together, however that is entirely to your taste. Be sure you stash away a few bottles of this and drink them at 10+ months to see how it comes along. Fermenting at 70 seems a bit high, even for a belgian yeast. I would try to start the fermentation at a lower temperature and bring it up to a warmer temp after a few days in the primary.

 

[CZs]

i would skip clover, coffee and aromatic malt, make regular dark amber candi (without stuff u have in your recipe) and have og 1.072-1.080 range

thanks! - I was wondering whether or not this would emphasize any subtle malt or yeast profiles, but - sounds like it would either be too much or hide them? I could see the reasoning to simplify it

 

[CZs]

As far as how long it should ferment, this might sound like a stupid answer but it should ferment until it is done fermenting. You can't really put a time frame on it, a beer of this gravity would probably take 3 weeks or more to finish up, and your 4 weeks sounds like a good target. Just take gravity readings in the days leading up to bottling. As far as carbing the bottles, the standard is a minimum of 3 weeks at 70 degrees. If it were my beer, I'd target 4 weeks in the fermenter, and three weeks in the bottle before I popped my first one open. At 7% abv I would likely age it for another 2 months in the bottle before serving it to anyone if you really want to let the flavors to mellow together, however that is entirely to your taste. Be sure you stash away a few bottles of this and drink them at 10+ months to see how it comes along. Fermenting at 70 seems a bit high, even for a belgian yeast. I would try to start the fermentation at a lower temperature and bring it up to a warmer temp after a few days in the primary.

thanks for the advice - I'll try to get it 2-3 degrees cooler before ramping up and I totally agree on setting some aside for longer increments - I will have some larger 22 oz bottles I'll set aside maybe at the 6 mo and 12 mo mark.

Another question - have you ever combined any other yeast with 3787 such as 1762, or something appropriate if you plan on doing incremental sugar feedings or just for the hell of finding a new flavor?

 

[sweetcell]

i would drop:
.26 lbs - Belgian Cara 20L - 1.9%
.26 lbs - UK Coffee Malt - 1.9%

and replace with more special B & aromatic, maybe introduce some caramunich.

not sure what your licorice/Amaretto tincture will be like, but that isn't dark candi syrup. you don't have any sugar in there. and a half pound of black licorice sounds like a lot! there are several threads on HBT about making your own candi syrup - it's sugar, water, acid, and some careful temp control. not too hard to make but for $7 i prefer to buy the stuff. however, your proposed mix might well be very tasty - it just won't be candi syrup.

4.5 oz of honey won't have much of an effect other than adding sugar. you would need to boost that significantly, and given the special B & other strong ingredients you won't taste it. i would use regular sugar instead (or assign those points to real candi sugar).

check out jamil's dubbel recipe for a classic and tasty take on the style.

 

[CZs]

i would drop:
.26 lbs - Belgian Cara 20L - 1.9%
.26 lbs - UK Coffee Malt - 1.9%

and replace with more special B & aromatic, maybe introduce some caramunich.

not sure what your licorice/Amaretto tincture will be like, but that isn't dark candi syrup. you don't have any sugar in there. and a half pound of black licorice sounds like a lot! there are several threads on HBT about making your own candi syrup - it's sugar, water, acid, and some careful temp control. not too hard to make but for $7 i prefer to buy the stuff. however, your proposed mix might well be very tasty - it just won't be candi syrup.

4.5 oz of honey won't have much of an effect other than adding sugar. you would need to boost that significantly, and given the special B & other strong ingredients you won't taste it. i would use regular sugar instead (or assign those points to real candi sugar).

check out jamil's dubbel recipe for a classic and tasty take on the style.

lol - I really chuckled after I re-read my initial post - the idea of steeping black licorice sounds great - but, I'd have to agree - maybe 1 oz would be enough, not to mention how it might blacken it. I've utilized Snick's DAP thread on "candi sugar" and adapted it with a steeped spice mix before and loved the results - it might not be genuine but it sounds like a lot of people don't consider it genuine unless you buy directly from the sources - totally fine by me - I've bought the 45 for around that same price and tasted it side by side with mine that wasn't altered and in general mine seemed a little sweeter - as far as complexity - it seemed a little better or just the same - thanks for the heads up on Jamil's recipe