My Experience with the Mark II Wort Pump

[Logan1891]

I will be returning this pump. (Correction: I Will NOT Be Returning This Pump. Read The Update)

I purchased this pump with the intention of pumping wort from the keggle into a plate chiller and then back into the keggle to whirlpool. My plan was to cool in the kettle to take advantage of cold break then whirlpool to bring all the material into the center and pull clean wort from a side pick up tube. Seems pretty simple.

Until now, I have been single pass chilling using gravity to drain the keggle through the plate chiller and then into the fermenter. I recirculate ice water with a submersible pump so I can go from 200+degrees to about 47 degrees in a single pass. I have never had any issues with clogging my plate chiller using gravity

Yesterday i hooked up my new Mark II pump with the SS head and recirculated in the manner described above with hot PBW. Everything worked great. Today I brewed and the pump started out strong for about 30 seconds then went down to a trickle. I stopped, flushed the plate chiller with the garden hose, sanitized, and tried to get going again. No good, the second I turned the pump back on the wort went right down to a trickle. This pump could not move wort through a plate chiller and then into the boil kettle. The total vertical distance the pump had to work was about 3-4 feet. Gravity feeding wort was faster than a pump that advertises 5 gallons per minute?

This was just my experience with this pump. I had no restriction on the flow from either the kettle or the outflow of the pump. I used only 2 ounces of pellet hops and I have used far more hops than that in previous brews. Unless Im missing something, I say save your money.

 

[day_trippr]

Seems like this would better placed in one of the Mark II Pump threads...

Cheers!

 

[Logan1891]

check

 

[Drumminguy81]

I have a plastic head mark ii I have only use it once with a plate chiller but it didn't give me any issues at all. I didn't whirlpool though, I have a false bottom in my boil kettle I just ran a straight transfer to fermenter pushed the wort about 15' through the plate chiller and into fermenter single pass.

 

[Konadog]

Yesterday i hooked up my new Mark II pump with the SS head and recirculated in the manner described above with hot PBW. Everything worked great. Today I brewed and the pump started out strong for about 30 seconds then went down to a trickle.

I would think that if it worked with hot PBW to begin with, then it worked for about 30 seconds with wort, it's not the pump not being able to pump thru the chiller, but a problem with it clogging up somewhere. This can happen with any pump you purchase.

 

[Logan1891]

I would think that if it worked with hot PBW to begin with, then it worked for about 30 seconds with wort, it's not the pump not being able to pump thru the chiller, but a problem with it clogging up somewhere. This can happen with any pump you purchase.

Im running 1/2 inch fittings with 1/2 inch silicone tubing. If the clog is not in the plate chiller, where else would you suspect? The only choke point in that loop is the plate chiller.

 

[mattd2]

Im running 1/2 inch fittings with 1/2 inch silicone tubing. If the clog is not in the plate chiller, where else would you suspect? The only choke point in that loop is the plate chiller.

Or the pump inlet.

 

[Photopilot]

It could be the pump clogging with particles or air getting into the pump causing cavitation. Try bypassing the chiller to see if its a clogged chiller or a pump issue. My general rule of thumb is a brew with a new piece of gear is not going to go smoothly. I use that day to figure out what changes in my procedure or technique need to be made to make full use of my new toy. I should do a test run the day before but then where would the excitement be on brew day?

 

[mxstar21]

The Mark II pump has worked well for me. Quiet, and doesn't get hot to the the tough. I only had clogging issues when I used mint leaves at flame out. Even with a whirlpool they clogged the inlet of the pump big time and multiple times. Still, it's a great pump in my opinion.

I also use a March pump and a Chugger. Bother have had clogging issues under the same circumstances for me. The Mark II is so quiet and sealed which seems like a big benefit to me.

 

[Logan1891]

Are any of you pumping wort into a plate chiller before returning to the kettle? I can't see there being trapped airing the pump based on the set up and the fact that wort passes through the pump and then back up into the plate chiller before I turn it on. The outlet in angled upward to let any air bubbles easily escape. All fittings and connections are 1/2 inner diameter.

 

[imasickboy]

Try turning it on for a few seconds after it is primed, then shutting it off, allowing any air bubbles to escape up the "out" hose, then turning it back on. As mentioned above, it definitely sounds like cavitation.

 

[Logan1891]

What your saying doesn't make sense to me. I open the ball valve on the kettle and wort flows down into the pump and then through the pump, up into the plate chiller. The pump outflow is angled up allowing air to be pushed out by the wort. I turn the pump on and wort flows through the plate chiller and back into the kettle. After about 30 seconds of that, the wort slows to a trickle. I turned the pump on and off several times and even turned the pump from side to side to try and see if any air would escape the pump head.

How is that cavitation from trapped air in the pump? If there was trapped air from
the start then why would the pump start out working? Wouldn't I have cavitation from the start? I only stopped the wort pump after it slowed to a trickle. When I stopped the pump, air did not flow all the way back through the chiller and into the pump head. Not to mention the fact that it worked fin the day before when I ran hot PBW through the loop which was set up the same way. the only difference between the test and brew day was wort instead of water and 2oz of pellet hops instead of PBW

How is cavitation occurring?

 

[afro_lou]

Did you absolutely, unequivocally, rule out a clog in the pump? I'd bet that's the problem. I use a similar setup, without a plate chiller, but I've been lucky enough to have not had a clog just yet.
Good luck!

 

[imasickboy]

If you're certain there's no air trapped in the system, or entering the system, then fine. Eliminate that as a potential problem and look for something else. Is there any vibration or noises when pumping, especially changes in pitch as the flow goes from "okay" to "not okay"?

Was all your equipment in the same position when you tested water vs. wort, (everything at the same height, same tubing lengths, using the same fittings)?

 

[Logan1891]

Did you absolutely, unequivocally, rule out a clog in the pump? I'd bet that's the problem. I use a similar setup, without a plate chiller, but I've been lucky enough to have not had a clog just yet.
Good luck!

I don't know how I could do that. But I will say that when I took the pump apart to clean it, there was nothing in it but a tiny bit of hop residue. I really don't see how two ounces in 6.25 gallons of wort would clog in the pump after about 30 seconds. Especially when you consider the fact that when I opened the ball valve on the keggle, the wort easily moved through the pump head and up into the plate chiller.

 

[Logan1891]

If you're certain there's no air trapped in the system, or entering the system, then fine. Eliminate that as a potential problem and look for something else. Is there any vibration or noises when pumping, especially changes in pitch as the flow goes from "okay" to "not okay"?

Was all your equipment in the same position when you tested water vs. wort, (everything at the same height, same tubing lengths, using the same fittings)?

Actually I was really surprised at how quiet the pump was so there was no detectible change in the sound. I did place my hand on the pump body as it attempted to pump the wort and all I could feel was just a slight bit of vibration but it didn't feel any different than when I tested it with PBW. Yes the set up was exactly the same on brew day. I really think this pump just isn't powerful enough to pump pellet hops through the plate chiller.

Unless someone out there is using this pump in the way that I am describing and has had better results?

 

[mattd2]

Did you absolutely, unequivocally, rule out a clog in the pump? I'd bet that's the problem. I use a similar setup, without a plate chiller, but I've been lucky enough to have not had a clog just yet.
Good luck!

Yep my pump (with 3/4" inlet/outlet) has clogged with pallet hops before. Remember there is the shaft support positioned in the centre of the inlet which requires supports back to the front housing =, which is where hop material can get caught and built up. See picture below:

 

[mattd2]

Actually I was really surprised at how quiet the pump was so there was no detectible change in the sound. I did place my hand on the pump body as it attempted to pump the wort and all I could feel was just a slight bit of vibration but it didn't feel any different than when I tested it with PBW. Yes the set up was exactly the same on brew day. I really think this pump just isn't powerful enough to pump pellet hops through the plate chiller.

Unless someone out there is using this pump in the way that I am describing and has had better results?

These pumps (all of them; March and Chugger too) are not powerful pumps. The do not create a very big pressure differential.
The MKII is spec'd at 10' at no flow, March's 809 was only 12' and the 815 (same spec as Chugger) is 18'
Even with a low mains water pressure of 30 PSI you are expecting 69' of head - i.e. at lot more pressure to push through pellet hops through the tight spaces of a plate chiller. I have clogged my chiller with a couple of onces.
You need to try and reduce the amount of pellet hops going through the chiller.

 

[Logan1891]

Ok, so I was thinking of getting a chugger instead because the flow rate is supposedly 7 gallons per minute while the MKII is rated at about 5. But from your posts, i guess your thinking that's not gonna make much of a difference for my set up? I could go back to using hop bags and just bump up the amounts a little to account for slightly lower extraction? Thats should keep a significant amount of hops out of the loop. Other than a hop spider what other ways are viable? I am thinking a hop rocket as a filter would just cause another choke point for clogging.

 

[mattd2]

Ok, so I was thinking of getting a chugger instead because the flow rate is supposedly 7 gallons per minute while the MKII is rated at about 5. But from your posts, i guess your thinking that's not gonna make much of a difference for my set up? I could go back to using hop bags and just bump up the amounts a little to account for slightly lower extraction? Thats should keep a significant amount of hops out of the loop. Other than a hop spider what other ways are viable? I am thinking a hop rocket as a filter would just cause another choke point for clogging.

Yeah, best bet is to keep hops out of plate chillers (I believe most of the suppliers spec anything over 1mm will clog them). I personally have a Iwaki knock-off (Resun) pump which has a 1/10 HP motor on it (read: 2x the power of a Chugger - although only ~15% more head) and that can't push hops through a plate chiller.

 

[Logan1891]

So what kind of pump does it take to push wort and hops through a plate chiller?

 

[Photopilot]

So what kind of pump does it take to push wort and hops through a plate chiller?

The Mark II pump has worked well for me. Quiet, and doesn't get hot to the the tough. I only had clogging issues when I used mint leaves at flame out. Even with a whirlpool they clogged the inlet of the pump big time and multiple times. Still, it's a great pump in my opinion.

I also use a March pump and a Chugger. Bother have had clogging issues under the same circumstances for me. The Mark II is so quiet and sealed which seems like a big benefit to me.

According to MXstar, who owns every pump recommended for brewing the Mark II worked as well as any.

I used the March Pump for years but it would often get an air bubble and cavitate I now use a Chugger. All of the pumps commonly used for brewing are very similar. My guess is whatever problem you have with the Mark II you will also have with the other pumps at twice the price, until you learn how to use them.

It is likely either you did not prime properly, or you got an air bubble after it was primed. My old March would unprime from the bubbles in the boiling kettle. The other possibility is you got a particle in the pump that affects its working or you may have gotten a lemon. My money is on operator error. You should try it again heeding some of the advice in this thread.

 

[mattd2]

So what kind of pump does it take to push wort and hops through a plate chiller?

None - since basically a plate chillers will act as a big coarse filter and filter out all those hop particles eventually clogging it
If you want to pump wort and hop material you need to look at a different chillers - either immersion or CFC.

 

[Logan1891]

UPDATE:

So, I added a little more kit to my set up and decided to give the pump another chance to remain a member of the family. Here's what I did:

1) read all of the responses to this post and carefully considered each suggestion.

2) used a nylon, draw string hop bag for boil additions.

3) added a "Spincycle" whirlpool arm from brewhardware.com. Incase anyone was wondering, yes it is pretty cool.

After the boil I connected just the pump to the whirlpool return and started the whirlpool for about 5 minutes. After that, I closed the outflow ball valve on the pump and added the plate chiller into the loop. I then continued to whirlpool through the plate chiller. The purpose of this was to try and move some of the solids to the center then add the plate chiller hoping to put less solids into the chiller.

I let that run for about 10 minutes effectively heat pasteurizing the entire loop. I also flushed everything with starsan prior. After ten minutes of hot whirlpooling, I shut down the outflow again and started my cooling water. This consists of a submersible pump in an ice chest covered in ice with a few inches of water which recirculates as well.

After the plate chiller was ice cold I opened the outflow on the wort pump and initiated the whirlpool again. I went from about 190f to 60f in the boil kettle in about 10 minutes. No clogs, no cavitation, never lost prime, absolutely outstanding!

However, I noticed that i never really got the trub cone in the center like I had hoped. Some heavier break material clumped together and sat in the center but there was a lot of fluffy looking material evenly spread across the bottom of the keggle. Am i missing something here? Is there a technique I am overlooking, should I whirlpool longer, faster, slower??

I get that keggles don't make as good a cone as flat bottom kettles but I was hoping for a little better performance. I hate to kick the hornet nest again but..........any thoughts??

 

[SpikeBrewing]

We recommend whirlpooling hot and then running from plate chiller into your fermenter. That has given us the best results by far.

 

[mxstar21]

We recommend whirlpooling hot and then running from plate chiller into your fermenter. That has given us the best results by far.

That is how I would do it with a plate chiller. I use a cfc and just do the whirlpool by running wort through chiller riggt after the boil to sanitize. Don't have to worry about cfc clogging though.

 

[Drumminguy81]

I just brewed using the mark ii last week on my keggle system it worked great! It is so much quieter than my chugger pumps. I used it for transfers between kettles and to fermenter. I don't whirlpool just use false bottoms in mash tun and boil worked great with my plate chiller no plugs.. one thing I do is use a hop rocket as a filter between the pump and plate chiller. Either with hops as a hop back or if I don't want hops I use rice hulls in it to act as a filter. It always works awesome and haven't had a plate chiller plug since.

 

[mxstar21]

I like how it is sealed. No worries about spilling on it. The quietness is nice, but, makes it harder to tell when air is in the pump. Overall, I would buy it over the others because it is sealed. With this pump you must buy the stainless steel head. The plastic one is garbage.

 

[Logan1891]

We recommend whirlpooling hot and then running from plate chiller into your fermenter. That has given us the best results by far.

When you say "best results," are you referring to the cleanest wort? Do you get a good cone in the center of the keggle? I was single pass chilling through the chiller on previous batches but I thought whirlpooling while cooling would help drop break material out of suspension and collect it in the center?

 

[SpikeBrewing]

When you say "best results," are you referring to the cleanest wort? Do you get a good cone in the center of the keggle? I was single pass chilling through the chiller on previous batches but I thought whirlpooling while cooling would help drop break material out of suspension and collect it in the center?

I'm referring to how well the hop/trub cone collects which is related to how clear we can drain off wort. We had the same initial thought as you when we were redesigning our stepped bottom kettle and pickup tubes but when you whirlpool cold the hop material bunches up in puffy clouds instead of a dense center cone. Hope that helps!

 

[Logan1891]

Yeah, that's what I was hopping to see in the bottom of my keggle. I know it won't be quite as good a cone given the dimpled bottom of the keg. Next batch, I will whirlpool hot and then single pass through the plate chiller into the fermentor and see where that gets me.

 

[Logan1891]

Well, I brewed again, whirlpooled hot and did a single pass through the plate chiller directly into the fermentor. Thanks for the advice because it worked. I had a nice mound of trub in the center of the keggle when I was done and I pulled clean (but no too clean) wort into the fermentor. This was a lager (DUNKEL) so the single pass through the plate chiller was very convenient. The wort hit the fermentor in the mid 40's F. Ales are going to be a little tricky because a single pass makes the wort too cold for ale fermentation temps. I gotta figure out the best way to throttle back the cooling water. Right now I am using a submersible sump pump to recirculate ice water through the chiller.

 

[imasickboy]

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Orbit-3-4-in-Threaded-Brass-Shut-Off-Coupling-27933/100659291

Basically just a ball valve for your garden hose.

 

[augiedoggy]

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Orbit-3-4-in-Threaded-Brass-Shut-Off-Coupling-27933/100659291

Basically just a ball valve for your garden hose.

I wouldnt suggest this one.
Notice its say not for indoor appliances and the huge warning for California residents stating it doesnt meet the requirments for lead free brass now mandated in all the states for use with drinking water or human consumption... This is not really a good choice unless you dont believe lead is bad for consumption.

 

[augiedoggy]

With this pump you must buy the stainless steel head. The plastic one is garbage.

Curious why exactly you say that?
I only ask because I use the cheaper DC plastic pumps myself (with BSP threads no less) and have no problems with them... I did spend the $6-10 to buy stainless camlock fitting on them so I'm not unthreading and threading fittings on them each time I use them. I have made hundreds of gallons with them now over the years with no issues short of me dropping one and breaking it which is why I mounted them now.
I wonder what real benefit short of surviving abuse by things like dropping it the stainless head could have?

 

[Logan1891]

Notice its say not for indoor appliances and the huge warning for California residents stating it doesnt meet the requirments for lead free brass now mandated in all the states for use with drinking water or human consumption... This is not a good choice.

Its for the cooling water through the plate chiller. The wort will not flow through it. Still a problem?

 

[augiedoggy]

Its for the cooling water through the plate chiller. The wort will not flow through it. Still a problem?

nope not at all (unless your reusing the water for brewing) ... sorry thought it was for the pump... MY bad for assuming..

 

[mxstar21]

Curious why exactly you say that?
I only ask because I use the cheaper DC plastic pumps myself (with BSP threads no less) and have no problems with them... I did spend the $6-10 to buy stainless camlock fitting on them so I'm not unthreading and threading fittings on them each time I use them. I have made hundreds of gallons with them now over the years with no issues short of me dropping one and breaking it which is why I mounted them now.
I wonder what real benefit short of surviving abuse by things like dropping it the stainless head could have?

Because as soon as you try to screw any fittings onto it the threads strip. I wish I would have ordered the stainless and saved on the shipping. I have used other plastic pumps as well and threaded fittings onto them with no problems, but this pump doesn't seem that way. Most of the reviews I saw said the same thing and I figured I would be fine saving a few bucks going with the plastic head, but was wrong.

 

[augiedoggy]

Because as soon as you try to screw any fittings onto it the threads strip. I wish I would have ordered the stainless and saved on the shipping. I have used other plastic pumps as well and threaded fittings onto them with no problems, but this pump doesn't seem that way. Most of the reviews I saw said the same thing and I figured I would b ite fine saving a few bucks going with the plastic head, but was wrong.

.

Gotcha.
Since these were originally sold in Europe and Australia they are most likely British standard threads which are slightly different that the ones we normally use in the states.. I guess the type of plastic might have something to do with it too since the dc p38 pumps I use also have the British threads but I have had no issues threading stainless fittings onto them with Teflon tape.

I'm surprised the stainless heads work better since I would have expected the same BSP type of threads and that would be harder to fit to another standard of thread type. Funny thing though is depending on where you buy the stainless fittings you might end up with BSP threaded fittings.. some sellers don't advertise which they actually sell.. Even my bayou classic kettles appeared to have come with BSP threaded fittings and ball valves which I had a tough time with threading up to some of my fittings.

 

[mxstar21]

.

Gotcha.
Since these were originally sold in Europe and Australia they are most likely British standard threads which are slightly different that the ones we normally use in the states.. I guess the type of plastic might have something to do with it too since the dc p38 pumps I use also have the British threads but I have had no issues threading stainless fittings onto them with Teflon tape.

I'm surprised the stainless heads work better since I would have expected the same BSP type of threads and that would be harder to fit to another standard of thread type. Funny thing though is depending on where you buy the stainless fittings you might end up with BSP threaded fittings.. some sellers don't advertise which they actually sell.. Even my bayou classic kettles appeared to have come with BSP threaded fittings and ball valves which I had a tough time with threading up to some of my fittings.

They are British standard threads and are advertised, so I knew that going in. Like you, I have used cam lock or tri-clover fittings before on British Threads, so I figured I could get it to work. I think you might be right it has something to do with the plastic. The stainless head had no problems at all. I can't fault them since I saw previous reviews that had the same issue. On the plastic I tried using with Teflon and without and both ended up stripping out. Overall I have been very happy with it.