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HumulusHead said:
Can someone explain to me how terminal blocks work?

In my mind I'm hoping they work like a splitter. Like one hot leg can be attached then just plug in any wire that needs to branch off that hot leg.

Is that how they work?

I've seen a ton of them on eBay for cheap, but the descriptions seem to state they insulate one wire from another?

Would that mean I would need a jumper? Or what is the purpose of a jumper?

I want to use these terminal blocks if possible to make the innards of my panel nice and neat!
Click to expand...

I cannot speak for how they are used in the panels but in a general electrical terms:

Terminal blocks are used for multi-tap connections to a shared source. The example most of us in the US can relate to is the ground and neutral bus bars in our breaker panels.

In certain parts of Europe, terminal blocks are used for all household connections. My favorites are the ones I used in Germany that push-in, 1/4-turn release. Instead of wire nuts terminal blocks are used in the fixture box.
 
HumulusHead said:
Can someone explain to me how terminal blocks work?

In my mind I'm hoping they work like a splitter. Like one hot leg can be attached then just plug in any wire that needs to branch off that hot leg.

Is that how they work?

I've seen a ton of them on eBay for cheap, but the descriptions seem to state they insulate one wire from another?

Would that mean I would need a jumper? Or what is the purpose of a jumper?

I want to use these terminal blocks if possible to make the innards of my panel nice and neat!
Click to expand...
Basically yes,

There are different styles... Some are broken up into segments and those would need jumpers to add more post /connection points to a single leg... some already have all the terminals joined into one since connected block...Some have removable jumpers that come with them..
 
Onkel_Udo said:
I cannot speak for how they are used in the panels but in a general electrical terms:

Terminal blocks are used for multi-tap connections to a shared source. The example most of us in the US can relate to is the ground and neutral bus bars in our breaker panels.

In certain parts of Europe, terminal blocks are used for all household connections. My favorites are the ones I used in Germany that push-in, 1/4-turn release. Instead of wire nuts terminal blocks are used in the fixture box.
Click to expand...

augiedoggy said:
Basically yes,

There are different styles... Some are broken up into segments and those would need jumpers to add more post /connection points to a single leg... some already have all the terminals joined into one since connected block...Some have removable jumpers that come with them..
Click to expand...

Sounds like I may be on the right path then with these.

Would either of you be able to point me towards something that would be what I am looking for?

I have found a couple options, but I am having a hard time telling if they need jumpers or not. I would PREFER to not have to use a jumper, but rather have it built in.

Here are a few examples:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Beau-Vernit...410?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27d5415dd2

http://www.ebay.com/itm/AC-300V-30A...646?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35c3bf7ae6

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Single-Wi...698?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4875b9bb52
 
HumulusHead said:
Sounds like I may be on the right path then with these.

Would either of you be able to point me towards something that would be what I am looking for?

I have found a couple options, but I am having a hard time telling if they need jumpers or not. I would PREFER to not have to use a jumper, but rather have it built in.

Here are a few examples:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Beau-Vernit...410?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27d5415dd2

http://www.ebay.com/itm/AC-300V-30A...646?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35c3bf7ae6

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Single-Wi...698?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4875b9bb52
Click to expand...

The first one for sure. the other two are harder to tell by the pictures.
 
fyi the home depot and radioshack are good local sources that actually have pretty good prices on these... they both have multiple types and sizes... you should honestly have the best idea what you need for your setup since they are all different...I use only one in my DIY control panel in my signature...
 
augiedoggy said:
fyi the home depot and radioshack are good local sources that actually have pretty good prices on these... they both have multiple types and sizes... you should honestly have the best idea what you need for your setup since they are all different...I use only one in my DIY control panel in my signature...
Click to expand...

I will have to check out HD!
 
So what would be the cons of removing the key switch, key switch light, and associated coil from my panel design?

Now that I'm getting my parts together, I'm realizing I could really use the extra space by getting rid of the key switch, light, and coil. I'm a little short on both internal and external space in my panel.

If I am looking at this correctly, it seems that the e stop and key switch are kind of a redundant processes. Which I assume is the point. But I feel comfortable just using the estop as the main power source. Probably associate a light with the estop so I can tell when the panel is powered up.

Anyone think this is a bad idea? Or just personal preference thing?
 
for @deece

IMG_0925.jpg
 
HumulusHead said:
Anyone think this is a bad idea? Or just personal preference thing?
Click to expand...

There are long threads devoted to this exact question and there are 2 different camps, both with knowledgeable people supporting both sides.

I am in the camp that its redundant, serves no purpose and is just extra cost. I added a lockable disconnect to my system to serve this function.

I wouldn't fault you if you included it though. I'd just say you wasted time and money adding something that doesn't have any purpose. ;)
 
schematix said:
There are long threads devoted to this exact question and there are 2 different camps, both with knowledgeable people supporting both sides.

I am in the camp that its redundant, serves no purpose and is just extra cost. I added a lockable disconnect to my system to serve this function.

I wouldn't fault you if you included it though. I'd just say you wasted time and money adding something that doesn't have any purpose. ;)
Click to expand...

Fears = Calmed

This thing will be unplugged when not in use also.

Lockable disconnect?? Like an estop with a key?
 
schematix said:
There are long threads devoted to this exact question and there are 2 different camps, both with knowledgeable people supporting both sides.

I am in the camp that its redundant, serves no purpose and is just extra cost. I added a lockable disconnect to my system to serve this function.

I wouldn't fault you if you included it though. I'd just say you wasted time and money adding something that doesn't have any purpose. ;)
Click to expand...

Could not agree more. Switch On/Off > PID > SSR > Element Plug Connection> The End.
 
cantrell00 said:
Could not agree more. Switch On/Off > PID > SSR > Element Plug Connection> The End.
Click to expand...

I would add a little to this.

Incoming Power: plug optional, use rotary disconnect switch. This is your main cut off. I used the Auber SWM-63. I don't recommend Auber for anything though due to a disgustingly poor customer service I had with them. Choice is yours though.

Power Circuit: Disconnect -> Circuit Breaker -> SSR -> Receptacle.
Controller Circuit: Disconnect -> Circuit Breaker -> Switch -> PID -> Switch* -> SSR

*A lot of the controllers automatically go into auto mode as soon as they get power. The second switch will allow you keep the SSR from firing as soon as the controller is powered, preventing a dry fire. I missed this on my initial design because i figured the PID had to have its own on/off switch, but it doesn't. I am going to go back and add this but right now i'm using the CBs to cut power off until i need it.
 
You would want a switch on either L1 or l2 going to the coil otherwise it would always be on. Also a feed going to the ssr. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will chime in also.
 
Here's are some snippets from my AutoCAD schematic. I've never posted it before now...

panel power.png
PID Power.PNG
PID Power2.PNG
 
Deece said:
You would want a switch on either L1 or l2 going to the coil otherwise it would always be on. Also a feed going to the ssr. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will chime in also.
Click to expand...

I will actually have a 3 way switch to one of the legs and the other leg is coming from the ssr. sound right?
 
HumulusHead said:
a legend is in the plans

as of right now the legend is in my head :)
Click to expand...

You know there are standard electric device symbols out there, right?

Circuit Breakers
Fuses
Push Buttons
Selector Switches
Lights
Relays (Mechanical and SSR)
etc.
 
schematix said:
*A lot of the controllers automatically go into auto mode as soon as they get power. The second switch will allow you keep the SSR from firing as soon as the controller is powered, preventing a dry fire. I missed this on my initial design because i figured the PID had to have its own on/off switch, but it doesn't. I am going to go back and add this but right now i'm using the CBs to cut power off until i need it.
Click to expand...


I'm glad you mentioned this! I never thought of this. I now will be adding a three way switch after my PID to switch between the two elements. I previously was going to have a 2 way so that I could just specify which element would be getting the power. But with the three way I can have it set to no element getting power but I can still have my PID on to make adjustments or what not.

Thanks :)
 
HumulusHead said:
Sounds like I may be on the right path then with these.

Would either of you be able to point me towards something that would be what I am looking for?

I have found a couple options, but I am having a hard time telling if they need jumpers or not. I would PREFER to not have to use a jumper, but rather have it built in.

Here are a few examples:
]
Click to expand...

Try looking at ebrewsupply.com, personally I find it easier and cheaper to buy the parts from him as opposed to those remaining radio shack stores. Look at his DIN hardware. Makes for a very clean looking setup as well. As far as eBay, I quit them after 15 years since I'd rather pay more and have something quickly than wait weeks for eBayChina parts to arrive.
 
BlkWater_brewer said:
Try looking at ebrewsupply.com, personally I find it easier and cheaper to buy the parts from him as opposed to those remaining radio shack stores. Look at his DIN hardware. Makes for a very clean looking setup as well. As far as eBay, I quit them after 15 years since I'd rather pay more and have something quickly than wait weeks for eBayChina parts to arrive.
Click to expand...


I hear ya there man. Those ebay prices sure are mesmerizing, but it takes forever to get them! I'm not in much of a hurry, but I am going to be making sure I do it right.

I like his din stuff. I actually dream of having my cp lined with din rails and the nice neat wires inside. Just got to make sure that dream aligns with my wallet!!! Ha

Radio shack is still around? Haha jk
 
HumulusHead said:
I will actually have a 3 way switch to one of the legs and the other leg is coming from the ssr. sound right?
Click to expand...

No... the coil power in the relay is switched with your 3 way switch... the actaul relay contacts have both actual heavy hot (L1 and L2) going through them before one of those wires goes through the ssr.... The ssr + and - wires should go right to your pid....
 
BlkWater_brewer said:
Try looking at ebrewsupply.com, personally I find it easier and cheaper to buy the parts from him as opposed to those remaining radio shack stores. Look at his DIN hardware. Makes for a very clean looking setup as well. As far as eBay, I quit them after 15 years since I'd rather pay more and have something quickly than wait weeks for eBayChina parts to arrive.
Click to expand...

Not to get off topic again but its the same "china" based hardware as places like ebrew just stock and mark up to 35-100% over ebay prices as a "stocking charge" This quickly adds up to a few hundred dollars extra on a brew panel or thousands on a complete build... The whole one shop for everything isn't really practical unless there is some sort of important timeline you need to meet which for a HOBBY like this just isnt the case (If your operating a business that could be a different story).

Different suppliers are going to get better prices on different products... Even Walmart who also buys most of their stuff from china does not offer the best prices and deals on everything.. I priced out one of ebrews $300 diy packages and found that as long as I dont mind waiting and extra week / week and a half I could order the equivalents for about $175 from ebay...
My local radioshack has terminal blocks for as low as $2.49 and I have NO shipping wait or costs... since I was already going there to pick up solder , fuses and other odds and ends I figured way not buy it there and help keep the local option in business for when I really need them. Radioshack may not be what it used to be but its still saves me some serious time and long trips when I can source hardware to repair something that no one else carries...

Back on topic
 
I stole this picture from another thread, but thought this would help me to explain what I THINK i should do.

MY coils are 240v.

So here are my thoughts

F- L1 from switch from PID
C- L2 from terminal block
E- L2 from SSR
A- L2 to element
D- L1 from terminal block
B - L1 to element

Does that sound right?

c3-56569.jpg
 
HumulusHead said:
I stole this picture from another thread, but thought this would help me to explain what I THINK i should do.

MY coils are 240v.

So here are my thoughts

F- L1 from switch from PID
C- L2 from terminal block
E- L2 from SSR
A- L2 to element
D- L1 from terminal block
B - L1 to element

Does that sound right?
Click to expand...

as far as the switch since your using a 240v coil you just run the F from L1 on the terminal block to the switch and then to "F" as well, not the pid.... My setup uses 24vdc coils in my relays which confused things more when thinking it through...
 
augiedoggy said:
as far as the switch since your using a 240v coil you just run the F from L1 on the terminal block to the switch and then to "F" as well, not the pid.... My setup uses 24vdc coils in my relays which confused things more when thinking it through...
Click to expand...

I keep thinking that because of the diagram in my OP. Take a look at that quick if you can. On the PID, it looks like a wire comes from terminal 13 and goes to the switch???

What does terminal 13 do then?
 
HumulusHead said:
I keep thinking that because of the diagram in my OP. Take a look at that quick if you can. On the PID, it looks like a wire comes from terminal 13 and goes to the switch???

What does terminal 13 do then?
Click to expand...

2 things... the diagram shows 120v coils and also shows the power coming from a contactor being used as the main power switch.... thats fine but I chose to instead switch my pid/timer power and 24v powersupply on one single 10A switch (there's a 1 amp fuse protecting this circuit so the draw is small) anyway since my relay coils run off 24v there's no chance of any of my relays working and this also effectively kills all the hot power to my elements.
 
augiedoggy said:
Not to get off topic again but its the same "china" based hardware as places like ebrew just stock and mark up to 35-100% over ebay prices as a "stocking charge"
Back on topic
Click to expand...

I don't disagree with you. Personally I feel that eBay pretty much has gone down the porcelain receptacle. Yes you can get parts from China cheap, and yes ebrew parts are chinese. However he has them and they are only 2-3 days away. Myself I am inpatient, I want things now and am willing to pay a bit extra to get them. Sadly the Radio Shacks around me are pretty much Cell Phone stores. For my Arduino parts - Amazon Prime beats their prices by about 35%, for that I'll wait the 2 days.

Back to the main point. With ebrew you can see what parts are needed, even if you want to go save a dollar or two and buy elsewhere. In all fairness, I have yet to hear from anyone that has been able to beat his "kit" prices for the basics by spending hours sourcing them. They are a good reference source, no matter. Same thing with Auberins.
 
BlkWater_brewer said:
I don't disagree with you. Personally I feel that eBay pretty much has gone down the porcelain receptacle. Yes you can get parts from China cheap, and yes ebrew parts are chinese. However he has them and they are only 2-3 days away. Myself I am inpatient, I want things now and am willing to pay a bit extra to get them. Sadly the Radio Shacks around me are pretty much Cell Phone stores. For my Arduino parts - Amazon Prime beats their prices by about 35%, for that I'll wait the 2 days.

Back to the main point. With ebrew you can see what parts are needed, even if you want to go save a dollar or two and buy elsewhere. In all fairness, I have yet to hear from anyone that has been able to beat his "kit" prices for the basics by spending hours sourcing them. They are a good reference source, no matter. Same thing with Auberins.
Click to expand...
You are kind of counterdicting yourself here... You state you would rather wait for shipping times vs pay a 35% markup at radioshack for aurduino stuff yet you state at the same time you would rather order your parts from ebrew or auberins which has a 35% MINIMUM markup on most of what they sell... ebrew is not really as unreasonable as auberins in my opinion but to pretend the guy doesnt mark the stuff up and its priced as good as one can find it individually (which often stated here) is just BS! hes operating a business to make money as a middleman and does not provide this service for free.. You say you have yet to hear where anyone has been able to beat his prices yet I just said in the previous post I was able to price out the components in one of his $300 kits for under $200 elsewhere? I'm not bashing anyone here but I am trying to keep the FACTS straight as for as prices go.

I'm sure you have seen the many posts where I have compared the exact same components manufactured by the same people as sold by auberins vs direct from a china via amazon or ebay sellers and most of the time auberins prices are more than double once you factor shipping ... thats 100% markup!

Most people who buy from them dont want to hear after the fact about how they overpaid so this isnt something thats generally brought up when someone asks for good sources for components...
When it does come up people tend to rationalize it with comments about wait time and "support" ... these are switches and breakers we are talking about... if you need support (someone to explain to you what they are and how they work) you can get it here free! if its broken ebay sellers have always replaced it for me no questions asked as much as people try to play it up that its not the case.. I have had 2 bad experiences in over 1000 ebay purchases so I'm speaking from MY experience..
 
Would I just mount my ssr and contactors and terminals to the inside of the enclosure? or is there a special board that people mount that stuff to? I have seen some CP's that have a brown looking board mounted to the back of the enclosure which appears to be the connection point for that stuff???
 
HumulusHead said:
Would I just mount my ssr and contactors and terminals to the inside of the enclosure? or is there a special board that people mount that stuff to? I have seen some CP's that have a brown looking board mounted to the back of the enclosure which appears to be the connection point for that stuff???
Click to expand...

You could... is your box an electrical enclosure or repurposed box of some kind... Its not really needed but it can make things easier.. I mounted everything to the enclosure myself.
 

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