My Brutus 10 build...Plobelms with the gas!

[Bullet]

I have searched and there are a lot of threads on here about what regulator/burner/ignition combinations to use and it has totally confused me. It is probably really simple for someone who knows what they are doing .

What I have are the banjo burners from Norther Brewer. Honeywell gas valves with the electric ignitors all running on propane gas. For the regulator I bought the low pressure one from Moorbeer...http://morebeer.com/view_product/17251//Low_Pressure_Propane_Regulator.

After everything was hooked up it fired and lit just as planned but the flame output on the burner was really low. We tried adjusting it via the honeywell gas valve but nothing would make it bigger.

Do I need a different regulator? Do I need to drill out the orifices'?..or is there something else I need to do to get this burner to flame like a jet engine?

 

[tjferris]

You prolly have a High Pressure valve in the burner, you need one of these http://www.brewershardware.com/Valve-and-LPG-Orifice-for-BURN10.html for each of your burners to talk nice to your low presure honeywells and regulator. That should fix the issue......maybe

 

[Bullet]

I thought that I read somewhere that these banjo burners were low pressure?

 

[bucfanmike]

i think that northern brewer burner is high pressure. just need to either swap out the orifice or the cheap route is to drill out the orifice. Search on the forum for threads on orifice size and you will find it, im at work and off the top of my head i think its like 3/32 drill bit to increase the orifice size will get you there.

 

[Irrenarzt]

You need a real regulator. Those little regulators won't push enough. Buy a flammable gas regulator from your local welding supply shop.

I had that exact regulator from morebeer. It's about as useless as a tit on a man. I sent it back...

 

[Bullet]

i think that northern brewer burner is high pressure. just need to either swap out the orifice or the cheap route is to drill out the orifice. Search on the forum for threads on orifice size and you will find it, im at work and off the top of my head i think its like 3/32 drill bit to increase the orifice size will get you there.

Just to clarify...the orifice on the burner....right?

 

[Bullet]

If it is as easy as drilling out the orifices I think it will work out good! I should be able to drill them out according to use. For example...full on for the HLT, mid/low performance for the mash tun to prevent scorching and 3/4 performance for the boil.

Is my thinking about right?

 

[Bullet]

Take a look at this video please and let me know what we are doing wrong. We think we have it narrowed down to the regulator but do not want to go out and buy the wrong one and dmage other components!




Thanks in advance for the help!

 

[Irrenarzt]

I already told you it was your regulator.

Buy a real regulator and you'll be all set. These little wimpy ones they try to sell us are useless.

You need an acetylene regulator. Here you go:

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200345430_200345430

 

[OneHoppyGuy]

Banjo/BG14 burners come standard with high pressure orifices from China. And most are sold that way. The orifice (the brass fitting) will need to be drilled out. We use size .078" (#47). We also use a needle valve inline before the burner for full flame height control.

 

[Irrenarzt]

Sounds like he already drilled out the orifice to 3/32" (0.09375") which is bigger than your suggestion OneHoppyGuy.

I have the minis on my single tier so I cannot comment on the orifice size but I would guess Brewsteel/OneHoppyGuy knows what he is talking about WRT the banjos. However, it's painfully obvious that you aren't pushing enough gas in the video and that you need a proper regulator. I would bet my left nut that is the problem here.

 

[OneHoppyGuy]

I didn't see that he had already drilled them. They're too large now. A high pressure regulator won't cure the problem because the gas valves have a maximum working pressure of .5 PSI / 11" W.C.
Time to order new orifices.

 

[Irrenarzt]

Good to know. I don't have those gas valves on my system either. I just let it rip and get nice pressure and blue flame, even with a 0.5 micron propane filter. Propane is dirty gas and will muck up your ASCO valves in time I have found if left unfiltered.

Sometimes too complicated is just that, too complicated.

 

[kladue]

Pull the Honeywell valve regulator cap and check and see if the spring is colored red, if not it is setup for NG and the pressure out is 3-4" wc. After replacing silver spring with red, tighten down on the regulator cap to get the fire level up to where you want. Another suggestion is to remove the top 2" from the flame sheild so the flame is not trapped under the bottom of the pot and sufficient air can flow up and around the burner to complete the combustion.

 

[roadymi]

Are you running on a 20 lb cylinder? I'd try another tank before you get to carried away making modifications. I'm The real life Hank Hill. I've seen plenty of the newer style OPD (overfill protection device) valves stick and not flow nearly as much gas as they should.
If you suspect it is malfunctioning you can try dropping the tank rather hard several times on the concrete, this will sometimes break them free.

 

[roadymi]

Also sometimes just opening the tank valve too fast is enough shut them down. They are designed to close if there is a sudden release of gas such as a hose rupturing. PITA for someone wanting to draw high BTU's.

 

[Irrenarzt]

Sounds like a total PITA

 

[roadymi]

Sounds like a total PITA

Exactly........just another example of BigBrother trying to over regulate and save us from ourselves.

 

[mikescooling]

This sounds stupid, have you shut down your air in-take to 25%?

 

[Bullet]

This sounds stupid, have you shut down your air in-take to 25%?

If we shut the air down at all the flame burns really orange and ugly. We have to have it all the way open to get a decent flame.

 

[Bullet]

Are you running on a 20 lb cylinder? I'd try another tank before you get to carried away making modifications. I'm The real life Hank Hill. I've seen plenty of the newer style OPD (overfill protection device) valves stick and not flow nearly as much gas as they should.
If you suspect it is malfunctioning you can try dropping the tank rather hard several times on the concrete, this will sometimes break them free.

I will try this. We have another tank right there so at-least we would be able to rule this out!

 

[Bullet]

I didn't see that he had already drilled them. They're too large now. A high pressure regulator won't cure the problem because the gas valves have a maximum working pressure of .5 PSI / 11" W.C.
Time to order new orifices.

We started smaller and did not see a noticeable difference so we keep going all the way up to 3/32. We did not feel comfortable going a whole lot bigger as it seemed there was something else going on. I have two more to use until new ones come. One not drilled at all and the other is drilled at 3/64.

 

[Bullet]

Pull the Honeywell valve regulator cap and check and see if the spring is colored red, if not it is setup for NG and the pressure out is 3-4" wc. After replacing silver spring with red, tighten down on the regulator cap to get the fire level up to where you want. Another suggestion is to remove the top 2" from the flame sheild so the flame is not trapped under the bottom of the pot and sufficient air can flow up and around the burner to complete the combustion.

I will double check this. I know we had to convert these over to propane gas but I was not watching when my buddy did this. We tried adjusting the regulator on the valve but it never seemed to matter much...if any. We were wondering about the shield and were thinking we would trim that off but first we need to get it running without any pots on it.

 

[jcaudill]

It sounds like your orifice's. I think once you drill those to proper size you'll get a better output. Though make sure you have a decent regulator 1) At the tank and 2) Before the Honeywell valve. Most people who use the Honeywell valve use a dual-stage regulator. I'm not sure this is absolutely critical but you have to make absolute sure you don't force too much gas down the Honeywell's throat. And make sure to put a Needle Valve after the Honeywell and before the burner because that is how you'll need to regulate gas.

Kladue mentioned checking the spring to assure it's red - one point of clarification is it's not a obvious red. It just has a translucent kind of red sheen. If you have a black cap over the adjustment, then you're probably ok.

 

[Bullet]

Found some time to work on the Brutus and were still having issues. We drilled the burner orfice out to 078. We put a high pressure regulator at the tank and moved the low pressure regulator to just in front of the Honeywell valve. We tested the output with a manometer and we are getting 12" of wc. And .47psi. We just don't seem to be getting any intensity out of the flame.

I will post video for anyone interested to look. I would appreciate any suggestions.

 

[neosapien]

man, every time I think I've seen the depths of beernerd wizardy, i'll stumble on another little gem in this site.

I have nothing useful to contribute to this conversation, other than I got to learn a whole lot from it and genuinely enjoyed reading this discussion.

thanks

 

[Bullet]

 

[roadymi]

I'm suspicious it isn't getting enough air. Is it feasible to pull the burner out and just sit it on top of the framework and see how it burns?

Have you tried bypassing the honeywell? Where did you test the WC at? What WC does manf call for? If you have 12" at the out
put of the honeywell it almost has to be lack of air.

If the above doesn't help I would try bypassing the honeywell

 

[roadymi]

Here is the propane serviceman's bible http://www.regoproducts.com/PDFs/LP-Gas_Servicemans_Manual.pdf

Note on page 6, I don't think you can draw 200,000 from a 20 lb cyl.

You can use pages 20-25 to calculate line loss.