Munich and Rye in a Roggenbier

[SeraW]

Anyone tried this? Been looking more at Munich as a base malt and interested in a Roggenbier style. I love baking with rye and almost never think to brew with it. Yes, I am aware of its stickiness and flavor.

5.5 gal All Grain BIAB

7 lb Rye Malt - Briess
5.5 lb Munich - Briess Bonlander 10L
1.5 lb Caramel Munich - Briess 60L

1oz Hallertau Mittelfrüh - 60min (13IBU)

WLP300 Hefeweizen Ale Yeast. Not sure temp yet, feel like cooler would probably help here, so 60F? Slurry from my last Weissbier, woken up in a vitality starter made from 2nd runnings.

I'm thinking from some posts on here that 8oz of Rice Hulls might still be helpful for lautering. Targeting a 2 qt/lb mash and sparging the rest as is typical for my system. I can still adjust ratios a bit if needed, but otherwise I'll probably brew this next weekend. Anything glaringly wrong with this as is?

 

[Protos]

I often brew Roggenbiers and other Rye beers, using up to 100% various kinds of Rye (malted, unmalted, Crystal Rye, Red Fermented Rye, Toasted Rye, Roasted Rye) in the grist, and I think your recipe is a solid one. The right hopping level, the right yeast, a good grist. You'll have a nice beer!

If I was drawing a similar recipe though, I'd reevaluate if I really needed 10% Crystal in my Munich-based Roggenbier. If the base malt was Pilsner, the use of Crystal would be justified as Rye by itself has quite a bland flavour so you might want to liven it up with some specialty malt. But here, you have enough of flavourful Munich, any Crystal malt addition would just muddle it up. Also, you don't want any extra body from Crystal, as you'll have it plenty from the Rye.

Don't expect Rye to impart any specific flavour. Interwebz are full of old wives tales of "spicy" flavour of Rye Malt. It hasn't any. If you have experience in baking with Rye you definitely know that the spiciness in Pumpernickels, Roggen Pretzels and Schwarzbrot comes from Caravay or Cumin seed or other spices, or specially pre-fermented sour Red Rye, and never from the grain itself. Rye has quite a neutral flavour, much more subtle than that of Wheat, and will impart nothing more than huge body and silky (sometimes even slicky) mouthfeel.

At 50% Rye in the grist, be ready to have some messy lautering. Besides adding rice hulls, you'd thank yourself if you employ a Beta-Glucan rest at 113-118F/45-48C. Even with those, you'll have a pretty viscous wort. But the beer will be worth of some additional steps, if it's made the right way.

 

[AlexKay]

Anyone tried this? Been looking more at Munich as a base malt and interested in a Roggenbier style. I love baking with rye and almost never think to brew with it. Yes, I am aware of its stickiness and flavor.

5.5 gal All Grain BIAB

7 lb Rye Malt - Briess
5.5 lb Munich - Briess Bonlander 10L
1.5 lb Caramel Munich - Briess 60L

1oz Hallertau Mittelfrüh - 60min (13IBU)

WLP300 Hefeweizen Ale Yeast. Not sure temp yet, feel like cooler would probably help here, so 60F? Slurry from my last Weissbier, woken up in a vitality starter made from 2nd runnings.

I'm thinking from some posts on here that 8oz of Rice Hulls might still be helpful for lautering. Targeting a 2 qt/lb mash and sparging the rest as is typical for my system. I can still adjust ratios a bit if needed, but otherwise I'll probably brew this next weekend. Anything glaringly wrong with this as is?

I've had my best results with 45% rye malt, 45% Vienna, 5% crystal rye, and 5% chocolate rye. I've used up to ~25% Munich in dunkelweizen and been happy. You're at 40% Munich, which is a bit much for my taste (though I don't know how assertive Briess's is; Munichs vary a lot by maltster) but in principle I think it would make a good beer.

I would back off the caramel malt. (Ah, I see @Protos has posted this too.) You could nix it completely and the beer would still be good, but too much and it'll be cloying.

I like WLP300 at 68 F for mostly clove to complement the rye.

I BIAB, so no direct experience with runoff. Rye is actually fairly low in beta glucans; the gumminess comes from arabinoxylans, and I don't know that a step mash helps with that. Certainly the conventional wisdom is for rice hulls.

 

[Protos]

Rye is actually fairly low in beta glucans; the gumminess comes from arabinoxylans, and I don't know that a step mash helps with that.

Empirically, a long (I did it for 30 and 45') Beta Glucan rest works well.
I'm definitely getting a less viscous wort with it, although a 100% Rye mash turned out to be a challenge even with a BIAB (and a very good beer it was!).

 

[SeraW]

I often brew Roggenbiers and other Rye beers, using up to 100% various kinds of Rye (malted, unmalted, Crystal Rye, Red Fermented Rye, Toasted Rye, Roasted Rye) in the grist, and I think your recipe is a solid one. The right hopping level, the right yeast, a good grist. You'll have a nice beer!

If I was drawing a similar recipe though, I'd reevaluate if I really needed 10% Crystal in my Munich-based Roggenbier. If the base malt was Pilsner, the use of Crystal would be justified as Rye by itself has quite a bland flavour so you might want to liven it up with some specialty malt. But here, you have enough of flavourful Munich, any Crystal malt addition would just muddle it up. Also, you don't want any extra body from Crystal, as you'll have it plenty from the Rye.

Don't expect Rye to impart any specific flavour. Interwebz are full of old wives tales of "spicy" flavour of Rye Malt. It hasn't any. If you have experience in baking with Rye you definitely know that the spiciness in Pumpernickels, Roggen Pretzels and Schwarzbrot comes from Caravay or Cumin seed or other spices, or specially pre-fermented sour Red Rye, and never from the grain itself. Rye has quite a neutral flavour, much more subtle than that of Wheat, and will impart nothing more than huge body and silky (sometimes even slicky) mouthfeel.

At 50% Rye in the grist, be ready to have some messy lautering. Besides adding rice hulls, you'd thank yourself if you employ a Beta-Glucan rest at 113-118F/45-48C. Even with those, you'll have a pretty viscous wort. But the beer will be worth of some additional steps, if it's made the right way.

I threw some Crystal in for color but you're right, probably not needed. Could always oven toast some extra pale malt if I really need that.

Since I use direct heat with induction, step mashing is pretty easy, and I've done multi decoction this way as well. Wasn't sure if it was worth it as I've seen divided answers. But at this point I think I'll give that a go.

 

[Zanatrik]

My first roggenbier came out pretty great, I learned I really enjoy the style! I agree that it doesn’t itself impart that ‘spicy’ character, so I second what Protos said here.
I did use 4% crystal in mine along with 4% smoked malt because that was the flavor I was going for and had some leftovers and I plan to brew the next batch exactly the same, so it’s really up to you and what you’re going for with flavor.

FWIW, I did not use rice hulls in my BIAB setup and didn’t run into issues but I guess it’s pretty system and process dependent.

 

[Komodo]

I don’t want to hijack here, but I’m working up a sort of imperial red - fall type something and have some Munich and rye in there. I’m curious to hear from the heavy rye users your opinions on the lower thresholds. I’ve used some rye in a saison and loved what it added. I’m looking to get an edge of crisp rye and malt backbone, but keep it clean, definitely not sweet or cloying. I’m also considering lagering. I’m mostly interested to hear thoughts on the Munich and rye amounts. Also, I’m considering swapping out all of the 2-row and Munich for Vienna.

For a 6G batch I’ve roughly got:
2-row 66%
Munich 11%
Victory 10%
Rye 9%
Red rye 100L 1% (3oz)
black malt 500L 1% (1.5oz)

8.5%, and ~55IBU

 

[Protos]

I too love Rye in my Saisons where I usually use 20% of it to counterbalance the dryness coming from super-high attenuation.

Saying "crisp rye", do you mean "Rye Malt produced by the Crisp Malting Group in England"? Otherwise, Rye doesn't add any crispness if you expect some. Quite the opposite, it adds softness and silkiness to the mouthfeel. 9% of Rye is a sweet spot: you'll have some mouthfeel boost without any gumminess or flavour impact.

Using 1% of Crystal Rye is actually pointless: Rye Crystal is way less flavourful than Barley Crystal, you barely feel its flavour even at 8%. Try at least 5% and see if you can taste it.

Regarding your choise between Vienna and Munich, I think there's an elephant in the room (Victory malt), which makes the choise irrelevant. Victory lends a strong flavour, similar but stronger than Munich, so it will overshadow either Munich or Vienna, no big difference other than colour then. If it was my recipe, I'd swap Victory for more Munich or for the base malt.

What yeast do you plan to use for this recipe?

 

[Komodo]

I too love Rye in my Saisons where I usually use 20% of it to counterbalance the dryness coming from super-high attenuation.

Saying "crisp rye", do you mean "Rye Malt produced by the Crisp Malting Group in England"? Otherwise, Rye doesn't add any crispness if you expect some. Quite the opposite, it adds softness and silkiness to the mouthfeel. 9% of Rye is a sweet spot: you'll have some mouthfeel boost without any gumminess or flavour impact.

Using 1% of Crystal Rye is actually pointless: Rye Crystal is way less flavourful than Barley Crystal, you barely feel its flavour even at 8%. Try at least 5% and see if you can taste it.

Regarding your choise between Vienna and Munich, I think there's an elephant in the room (Victory malt), which makes the choise irrelevant. Victory lends a strong flavour, similar but stronger than Munich, so it will overshadow either Munich or Vienna, no big difference other than colour then. If it was my recipe, I'd swap Victory for more Munich or for the base malt.

What yeast do you plan to use for this recipe?

I thought the rye (not Crisp malting) in my Saison added a little peppery edge, maybe it could be attributed to something else but it was a recipe I had done before and that was the only change. The 100L was for color and rye layering. I believe that came from an article I read on Roggenbier actually where the author had added several kinds of ryes. Between that and the black malt, it should get a nice red hue.

I'm not sure if I've used Victory before or not, but it's nutty flavor is it's reason.
As far as Vienna or Munich, I'm not considering one vs the other, but either 2-row / Munich or all Vienna plus the remaining malts. I'm leaning all Vienna at this point.

Not sure on yeast yet, but thinking lager.

 

[Protos]

I thought the rye (not Crisp malting) in my Saison added a little peppery edge

It won't, unfortunately.

Heaps of recipes on the internet assuredly promise "pepper" and "spice" from Rye. Most probably it's one of the classic cases of those "brewing echo chambers", where a certain old wives' tale gets repeated and amplified until it becomes an "axiome". I wonder where that came from first. Maybe, from someone who tasted Rye only in Pumpernickel or Schwarzbrot, laden with Cumin and Caravay. Or from someone who used exclusively Finnish Kaljamallas, the pre-fermented Lacto-soured and heavily toasted Red Rye Malt, which packs plenty of spiciness and flavour, but is practically unobtainable and unknown to the homebrewers, aside from the Finns and a very few brewing geeks.
Rye has neither peppery nor spicу flavours in it. It's a very neutral-tasting (more neutral than Wheat) grain that lends the beer little but a very rich mouthfeel.

maybe it could be attributed to something else

That's right, it attributes to the yeast. Saison yeasts are notorious for producing peppery phenolics, with or without Rye.

The "axiome" is so established, that some, even having brewed a Rye beer, believe that they're able to "percept" those mythical flavours. Just read the brewing reports. Well, in Saisons, pepper is something that yeast imparts. In classic Roggenbiers, fermented with Weizenbier yeasts, yeast phenolics could be taken for the "spicy Rye". What do they take for "spice and pepper" in beers fermented with English or American yeasts, is above my imagination. Self-hypnosis, I could only assume.

I'm leaning all Vienna at this point.

That's a good idea, in my opinion.
Either 2-row and Munich without Victory, or all Vienna and Victory.
Then you have it nicely balanced.

 

[DBhomebrew]

tasted Rye only in Pumpernickel

I bet that's it. Nearly the only rye one can get in the States is NY/Jewish/deli -style with caraway seeds. Rye for us typically means spiced.

Then there's the recent-ish trend for rye whiskey. Not exactly spiced, but it has an edge which wheated or pure corn/barley whiskeys do not.

 

[Protos]

Not sure on yeast yet, but thinking lager.

I'm into historical beers, and have never heard of any traditional Rye Lager (probably, they didn't brew it not without a reason). Once I was thinking of brewing one myself, then decided against that. I reasoned, it would be counterproductive: Lagers are crisp, never chewy, beers, you must be very careful even with Barley Crystal additions to Lagers to not overthicken the body. And here you add such a powerful "thickener" as Rye...

 

[Zanatrik]

I’ll throw in a comment too that your hop choice can also have an impact. I went with Styrian Goldings for my roggenbier because I had read it lended some of that spicy character that I was shooting for (hints of white pepper according to the notes).

just for reference as well, looks like brulosphy did a test on adding caraway for the rye bread character and results were not much in favor exBEERiment | Impact Caraway Seed Has On Dark Rye Saison

 

[Komodo]

That's right, it attributes to the yeast. Saison yeasts are notorious for producing peppery phenolics, with or without

I’m great with brewing notes, but horrible about keeping tasting notes. But the beer I used the in that had a nice crisp quality was done with WLP568. All I brewed were Belgians at the time, doing free rising ferments, etc. No doubt the yeast did it, and I was considering using a Belgian yeast for this anyhoo.

 

[Protos]

a test on adding caraway for the rye bread character and results were not much in favor

There is the only way to get the real caraway rye bread flavour in your beer. Kaljamallas sour toasted malt tastes exactly like that and it's very powerful in taste and flavour, 5% of the grist is more than enough to lend a beer a very peculiar character. I think a very similar product could be found in artisanal bakery shops, as it is used in German, Scandinavian and Slavic rye breads. It may be called Fermented Rye or Red Rye. I procure my small supply from Lithuania and Ukraine. Little goes a long way.

I wonder why it's not more popular and is essentially unknown to homebrewers. People are chasing the "spicy Rye" myth, while there's an ingredient that really makes your Rye beer taste like a liquid Pumpernickel.

 

[mashpaddled]

I'm into historical beers, and have never heard of any traditional Rye Lager (probably, they didn't brew it not without a reason). Once I was thinking of brewing one myself, then decided against that. I reasoned, it would be counterproductive: Lagers are crisp, never chewy, beers, you must be very careful even with Barley Crystal additions to Lagers to not overthicken the body. And here you add such a powerful "thickener" as Rye...

I would venture a guess that if such a beer had a historical basis, it was made to stretch out barley supply and probably not at any brewery of particular note or volume. Between purity laws and the general pain rye can be in the mash, probably little reason for much exploration on that front.

OTOH, there is a local brewery that makes a rye lager that is quite good. They've rebranded it as a marzen and it's vaguely in that style.

 

[Protos]

Rye, generally, was known as a "poor man's wheat", it grows far up North where Wheat doesn't and where Barley crops decline because of the climate. So, must be an obvious choise for stretching the more expensive Barley in Northern Europe. Nevertheless, we don't hear much if at all of traditional Rye beers in Nordic countries (except in Finland, where it's, again, very rarely a significant part of the grist). In the same time, Nordic traditions of baking with Rye are immensely richer than those of brewing with Rye.

I believe, pain in the mashtun must be the major reason behind Rye unpopularity among old European brewers, even despite its availability and cheapness.

Even German Roggenbier is a pretty new style, much younger than the classic Weißbier.

 

[SeraW]

Dropped the Cara but I did brew the rest as is. Funny side note: my grain bag was for odd reasons a bit looser weave than my hop bag - the hop bag held onto wort for dear life at the end, but the grain bag was fine at giving up the goods. Going into the keg later today but the sample was very tasty.