I am a long time home brewer, all grain and extract sometimes, brewing in a keggle and and mashing with an igloo cooler. I am transitioning to Brewing in a Basket (in a keggle), and I would appreciate feedback from others that have actually done this. I have attached a drawing of my setup that I am fabricating now. It will have a "yard arm" with a swiveling base, and a hand crank winch (not shown). I don't own a grain basket or hop basket yet. Any feedback is appreciated, and I do have some specific questions for anyone that has direct experience with my specific topics. 1) Is it necessary for the basket to fit tightly (within 1/2" or 3/4") inside the keggle, and if so why, 2) What is a practical and effective way to maintain mash temperature of the keggle, 3) Can I use the grain basket (400 micron holes), after emptying it of grain, as a hop basket or is it really necessary to have a second 300 micron hop basket, 4) Should the top of the grain basket be the same height as the keggle, 5) I plan to recirculate wort through the basket in the keggle....any suggestions on that implementation? My drawing shows the grain mill attached, as well as a hop rocket. I don't have questions about those specifically, but comments are welcome. Thanks in advance for any advice.
Moving to BREW IN A BASKET
- Thread starter Mike123
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1. the closer the basket to the sides the more liquid is in the grain bed during mashing...a plus
2. wrap kettle with insulation...a blanket, reflective wrap, sleeping bag, etc
3. no clue, i add all ingredients loose
4. just below so you can close the kettle lid during mashing to maintain temps
5. use a simple magnetic pump, i just have a simple hose dumping water back on top since the grain is usually fully submerged, thus no fancy sprinkler head thingy is really needed
2. wrap kettle with insulation...a blanket, reflective wrap, sleeping bag, etc
3. no clue, i add all ingredients loose
4. just below so you can close the kettle lid during mashing to maintain temps
5. use a simple magnetic pump, i just have a simple hose dumping water back on top since the grain is usually fully submerged, thus no fancy sprinkler head thingy is really needed
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Mike123
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Mike123
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Thanks Odie. Regarding my item 1 above, I took a closer look at the basket dimensions required. Given I am prone to brew mostly 5 gallon batches, the fact that my basket will be 3" off the keggle bottom (to be above the drain pipe), results in a lot of space outside the basket. I did not calculate but a visual SWAG would be 40% volume outside the basket and 60% inside, conservatively.
Another reason I prefer bags to baskets for close to 100% full volume mashing.
No need to recirculate if all the water is not the mash already
KISS
Just my biased opinion
Thanks
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Mike123
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Thanks Odie. Regarding my item 1 above, I took a closer look at the basket dimensions required. Given I am prone to brew mostly 5 gallon batches, the fact that my basket will be 3" off the keggle bottom (to be above the drain pipe), results in a lot of space outside the basket. I did not calculate but a visual SWAG would be 40% volume outside the basket and 60% inside, conservatively.
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Mike123
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Thanks for the feedback so far. I am one of those determined to make a keggle work in a basket application, for 5 gallon batches worst case. I love the look of the keggle (esp polished), and the overall Beer Sculpture thing, so I'm going to press with a Keggle design. If I just can't reach a high percentage volume mash in the keggle then I might relent and consider a bag or a different pot before I commit $ to a lost cause (so I am at least open minded to that outcome).
So, having said all that......my current problem is lowering my keggle dip tube below it's current 3 inch height off the keggle bottom. I need the dip tube there to gravity prime my chugger pump. I have a copper dip tube coming straight off the welded male NPT coupler in the keggle side, and it does a 90 degree turn at the center of the keggle bottom. The result is that the lowest point a basket can sit is 3" off the keggle bottom, not acceptable. My goal is to lower that by at least 1.5". Has anyone been able to do this? If so can you share a picture, or at least describe what you did? Thanks in advance I appreciate your suggestions.
So, having said all that......my current problem is lowering my keggle dip tube below it's current 3 inch height off the keggle bottom. I need the dip tube there to gravity prime my chugger pump. I have a copper dip tube coming straight off the welded male NPT coupler in the keggle side, and it does a 90 degree turn at the center of the keggle bottom. The result is that the lowest point a basket can sit is 3" off the keggle bottom, not acceptable. My goal is to lower that by at least 1.5". Has anyone been able to do this? If so can you share a picture, or at least describe what you did? Thanks in advance I appreciate your suggestions.
everyone's set up is a little different...
I have an electric element inside the kettle and a 9" thermometer probe. My basket sits about 3" off the bottom as a result, I have a Wilser bag inside the basket. Without the basket the bag would be held off the bottom anyway. The basket protects the bag and makes things easier for me.
I wouldn't worry too much over the volume under your basket. I open the drain into a bucket and dump it back on top a few times while mashing. Small inconvenience. I now use a cheap $10 pump off ebay and recirc...problem solved and makes it easy to maintain homogenous mash temps. then I can fire up the element and mash out before I pull the basket/bag
there is no "one right way" to BIAB...
I have an electric element inside the kettle and a 9" thermometer probe. My basket sits about 3" off the bottom as a result, I have a Wilser bag inside the basket. Without the basket the bag would be held off the bottom anyway. The basket protects the bag and makes things easier for me.
I wouldn't worry too much over the volume under your basket. I open the drain into a bucket and dump it back on top a few times while mashing. Small inconvenience. I now use a cheap $10 pump off ebay and recirc...problem solved and makes it easy to maintain homogenous mash temps. then I can fire up the element and mash out before I pull the basket/bag
there is no "one right way" to BIAB...
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Mike123
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Thanks Odie, these are good points. My grain basket may be much smaller than my Keggle resulting in a lot of "dead space" outside the basket. Will mash recirculation compensate adequately for efficiency lost due to dead space outside the basket? I am considering recirculating during mash using a vertical tube (centered in the grain basket) with holes along the length of it which should push wort from the basket center to the basket exterior, which then should be picked up by the dip tube, routed to the pump, and returned again etc?
Keggle? are those commercial 1/2 kegs turned into a kettle? if so I'm guessing you would have a hard time finding/making any basket hug the walls and still get thru the top opening.
As long as your grain bed is fully submerged, I think you will achieve optimal efficiency if you are recirculating constantly during the mash. Remember, traditional mashing uses less water in the grain bed to do all the conversion. The sparging is just rinsing out already converted sugars.
As long as your grain bed is fully submerged, I think you will achieve optimal efficiency if you are recirculating constantly during the mash. Remember, traditional mashing uses less water in the grain bed to do all the conversion. The sparging is just rinsing out already converted sugars.
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Mike123
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Keggle? are those commercial 1/2 kegs turned into a kettle? if so I'm guessing you would have a hard time finding/making any basket hug the walls and still get thru the top opening.
Yes it is a commercial 15.5 gallon keg (see attached image) that I've converted to a Kettle (Keggle). The problem with a basket that hugs the Keggle walls is very problematic due to 1) the top rim of the keg is ~13" so first you have to cut that off (and I choose not to), 2) any couplers, nipples, and temperature probes that extend into the Keggle interior are in the way. I plan to recirculate wort back into the center of the grain bed with a vertical pipe with holes in it, pushing the wort through and out of the basket sideways into the dead space, and down out of the basket, ultimately recirculating through the dip tube to the pump and back to the Keggle. What do you think of that approach?
dwhite60
Well-Known Member
I've read a lot about crushing your grain in an area separate from your brewing area. The malt carries lactic bacteria and can easily infect your chilled beer.
Think I would move the mill.
All the Best,
D. White
Think I would move the mill.
All the Best,
D. White
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Mike123
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I'm proceeding with my build as planned. Here are pics of my progress, in no particular order. I expect to buy a SS grain basket in the future. I'll make the recirculating vertical tube from copper tubing, and attach via the quick disconnect male connector inside the Keggle.
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Mike123
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As I said in my previous post I'll continue my Single Vessel build as described above. Meanwhile I'm looking ahead now on how to control mash temperature during recirculation (RIMS) using my 120VAC version Blichmann Hop Rocket. I initially thought about manual control but I've been warned away from that (wort scorching). I see a lot of discussion about PID controllers. If anyone has done this I could use some suggestions on a quality and cost-effective PID controller, if there is such a thing. I think from what I've read that a Johnson controller is too slow. If there is another technology that works well I am all ears. Thanks!
Looks like a considerable gap between the basket and sidewalls. Recirc will be a must for efficiency. Close the side holes to retain more wort inside the basket when u recirc? Mine I can watch the sight tube drop when the pump is on and the basket level rises
A Hop Rocket is not a very good geometry for a RIMS tube. You really want a long, small diameter tube for best results. @augiedoggy should be able to provide more experienced guidance about this.
Brew on
Brew on
Nice job. Looks like my welding skills are similar to yours, can never get the stick welder to get that perfect rippled weld you see in books. But they hold strongly anyway and a grind and polish hides the lumps and bumps.
Deleted miss post
The liability of having only 40% of the volume in the mash is that you might be limiting yourself to strength of beer. You are obviously committed to the keggle, but it is probably not the best vessel for what you are trying to do. If you were doing 10 gallon batches you would be in better shape.
One of the virtues of BIAB is that the grain is able to be immersed in a relatively thin wort, finely milled, and encourages maximum exposure to the wort for conversion. If you end up packing too much grain in too small of a volume you are going to have stuck mash issues and low conversion.
When I do larger 5 gallon batches, my grain volume fills most of a 5 gallon bucket. I would think you want pretty close to a 5 gallon volume submerged in your basket. (Not science there, just a gut feeling.)
One of the virtues of BIAB is that the grain is able to be immersed in a relatively thin wort, finely milled, and encourages maximum exposure to the wort for conversion. If you end up packing too much grain in too small of a volume you are going to have stuck mash issues and low conversion.
When I do larger 5 gallon batches, my grain volume fills most of a 5 gallon bucket. I would think you want pretty close to a 5 gallon volume submerged in your basket. (Not science there, just a gut feeling.)
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Mike123
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Thanks for your comments Odie! Yes I can't fit anything larger than a 12.5" diameter basket into my 15.5" diameter Keggle, and I know that can be a drawback due to all the dead space below and on the sides. I'm going to recirculate during the mash with a vertical tube with holes inserted in the center of the mash. Yes I'm committed to this setup unless I find it just can't work. I admit I'm reluctant to change to another kettle. I love that beer keg look. Call me stubborn. In a few weeks hopefully I can try this out and see how it works. I'll report back here with my findings.
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Mike123
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Actually these are some of my first welds. I have a friend that is training me during this build in his garage. Yes, good thing you can grind out most of the ugly stuff. Haha.
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Mike123
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I agree with everything you are saying, but I love this Keggle and I'm going to make a run at it. Hopefully recirculation during the mash will compensate for the dead space under and outside the basket. I plan on fine milled grain and thin mash. I'll get back on here when I've tried this setup out, probably late December or January 2020.
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Mike123
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These stainless steel pipe clamps were just the right size to keep my basket weight off the dip tube and cost me $12. I already owned the SS basket. If I don't like how this works I'll probably ask someone to buy me a SS mesh basket for a gift.
With the grain confined to a fraction of the total mash volume, the actual mash thickness in the grain bed will be much higher than the apparent mash thickness determined by dividing strike volume by grain weight. You will likely not have a "thin" mash.
Brew on
Getting water to run through grain is not as easy as you might think. My original setup was also a single tube about 8" into the mash with small holes drilled along it. In theory it should have sprayed hard enough to mix up the grain and force water through all of it. In reality the restrictions of the grain and the fines in the bag limited me to a fairly slow flow.
Before you invest hundreds of $ in a mesh basket, make sure you have sorted out your volume with some test brews. I totally support having an idea for a rig in your head and just going at it until you can make it work. I would just hate to see you waste too much money and then find out it doesn't do what you need. Also, when I build things myself it is 2x more painful to throw it out and start over!
Best of luck!
Here’s mine. U can see I use rolled up flashing to close the side holes. Thus recirc forces all the wort down thru the grain bed. Also my basket fit is tight. I had to grind the basket lip down to slide in the kettle. The only wasted space is 2-3 inches below the basket which is meaningless since I recirculate anyway.
Recirc will definitely help your problem. I just did a batch yesterday. Same exact recipe I did this spring. First time OG 1.051. This time OG 1.060. What changed? Recirc. That’s it. Both were BIAB. Same grain bill, crush, mash temps, etc
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Mike123
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Good idea Odie. If my current basket (Cajun cooker strainer) does not work out, my next step is to restrict the sides (like you did with the flashing), and then after that perhaps a SS basket with closed side walls and mesh on the bottom only. We will see. I have to finish building the rig and then I can test this setup out. Having fun along the way....they say it is the journey and not the destination right?
Transamguy77
Well-Known Member
Looks like a cool setup, and interesting use of that hub bearing! I hope you don’t have to transport that cause it’s going to weigh a ton. I built a 3 tier stand with 3” angle iron and it weighs well over 100 lbs.
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Mike123
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Yes my original 3 Vessel version frame was heavy, but I could load it (without the keggle) into the bed of my pickup by myself (carefully). This single vessel rig will be a little lighter. I only transport it to change the design, mostly I roll it around my garage and driveway, which works just fine as intended. The hub is from the junkyard, and the hoist arm rotates smoothly. I'm pressing on with this build, for the rig frame, but considering some changes to the Keggle/Basket based on excellent feedback I'm getting from some of the guys on here. Thanks to all of you for the help, I plan to benefit from your suggestions and experience. Cheers, Mike123.
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Mike123
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Odie, what is the rolled up flashing made of, aluminum? Where did you get it? I want to try that out to, as you say, force the wort down through the grain bed.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
So For those who dont believe recirculating has any positive effect on the beer... I assume your constantly stirring your mash to get the same efficiencies?
have you ever tried making coffee without running the hot water through the grounds? try it sometime... add hot water to container of the same amount of grounds and then just drain it out the bottom after it sits... heck try making tea with a tea bag without dipping or stirring (which promotes flow through the subratate same as recirculating) and then make an identical cup of coffee or tea while doing so and note the strength of each from what has been extracted from each....
Pro breweries use mash rakes to constantly stir the mash or they manually do it. smaller breweries often use rims or herms or find they have to stir at least once and often get lower efficiencies. There can be drawbacks to recirculation too and its true its not needed or course but to say it offers no advantage is wrong.
have you ever tried making coffee without running the hot water through the grounds? try it sometime... add hot water to container of the same amount of grounds and then just drain it out the bottom after it sits... heck try making tea with a tea bag without dipping or stirring (which promotes flow through the subratate same as recirculating) and then make an identical cup of coffee or tea while doing so and note the strength of each from what has been extracted from each....
Pro breweries use mash rakes to constantly stir the mash or they manually do it. smaller breweries often use rims or herms or find they have to stir at least once and often get lower efficiencies. There can be drawbacks to recirculation too and its true its not needed or course but to say it offers no advantage is wrong.
Sorry Auggie, I disagree with your post above.
A few good stirs will equalize the sugar solution absorbed in the grain.
Grain conversion is different then hard coffee beans leaching out coffee but whatever.
No, I’m not going to try making coffee without mixing the brewing water well with the coffee grounds. I don’t think I’ll try mashing without stirring well several times either.
Even if recirculating has merits, I don’t think the tiny bump in efficiency is worth the effort.
I agree, recirculating can solve other problems in the mash tun, like when you are mashing an a small percentage of the total liquor, hence requiring recirculating to mix all the water with all the grain, just as you would with a full volume mash.
Recirculating solves the problems caused by recirculating lol
1. Heat losses
2. Confined mash in a portion of total mash water.
News flash....you need to mix hot water and coffee grounds to make coffee. Lol
A few good stirs will equalize the sugar solution absorbed in the grain.
Grain conversion is different then hard coffee beans leaching out coffee but whatever.
No, I’m not going to try making coffee without mixing the brewing water well with the coffee grounds. I don’t think I’ll try mashing without stirring well several times either.
Even if recirculating has merits, I don’t think the tiny bump in efficiency is worth the effort.
I agree, recirculating can solve other problems in the mash tun, like when you are mashing an a small percentage of the total liquor, hence requiring recirculating to mix all the water with all the grain, just as you would with a full volume mash.
Recirculating solves the problems caused by recirculating lol
1. Heat losses
2. Confined mash in a portion of total mash water.
News flash....you need to mix hot water and coffee grounds to make coffee. Lol
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The flashing is aluminum. I think I bought it at Home Depot many. many years ago. It was just sitting around and I just thought why not try it? I was wanting to recirc and felt most of the wort would just flow out the side holes on top and not really get into the grain bed.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
Everyone is entitled to an opinion you could have stated it without the "news flash" comments
You really didnt understand what I meant when I was talkng about making coffee without having the liquid constantly flowing through the ground bed? Liquid constantly flowing through any grainular media will dissolve it better just as liquid constantly flowing through a grainbed can do a better job of both dissolving the sugars and extracting other flavors from the grain vs just pouring the water in and waiting and draining it. This is exactly why a peculator coffee maker made better coffee than just steeping it in hot water.
You already know this because your accomplishing better extraction by stirring and then either just dealing with the temp changes from it or reheating the mash to compensate. Recirculation is extremely easy to do and cheap to do it just people have a tendency to go overboard with more is better and create their own issues with channeling and stuck false bottoms by using huge 7gpm pumps and pushing the flow too fast. Im sure you've heard me say it here 100 times but I get 91% efficiency and very consistent beer with my very inexpensive setup and most of the bells and whistles I have were for the enjoyment I got with tinkering with the system but adding a $18 pump and the $200 in rims hardware was the best upgrade I made. (IMO) Its not for everyone and I dont mean to say it is, but I will say recirculation or constant motorized raking (stirring) is superior at what it does than pouring it in and draining an hour later...
Recirculating (as used 99% of the time with a heat exchanger such as rims or herms) stops heat loss and add the ability to correct and adjust and step it as well as perform different rests for things like head retention. It dramatically helps with consistency. Its normally added to solve the issue of inconsisten mash temps.
a third advantage is crystal clear wort without as much undissolved proteins and grain going into the boil.
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I wish I had seen this thread earlier to chime in, but I've recently switched from doing a recirc with bags in a keggle to a recirc with a basket. What I've done so far:
- to keep volume left in keg to a minimum, I use a tc clamp on the opening of the keg and bottom-drain
- cut the "top" of the keg off with an angle grinder as the rolled lip led to too much wort on the outside of the basket
- crafted a lid with a return fitting that currently has a locline on the inside of the lid
Pics of how closely the basket can sit once the keg lip is gone:
- to keep volume left in keg to a minimum, I use a tc clamp on the opening of the keg and bottom-drain
- cut the "top" of the keg off with an angle grinder as the rolled lip led to too much wort on the outside of the basket
- crafted a lid with a return fitting that currently has a locline on the inside of the lid
Pics of how closely the basket can sit once the keg lip is gone:
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Mike123
Well-Known Member
Thanks Blizz81. Sorry I am not sure I understand what you mean by your first statement about keeping volume left in keg to a minimum. So I'm assuming the modified keg has an ID like mine of 15.5 inches, so your basket must have an OD of about 14.5 inches. Correct? You don't have any couplings, etc. that protrude into the interior of the keg, correct? What is the height of the basket? How high are the feet on the basket? What did you make the lid from? Thanks and sorry for all the questions.
BruceH
Mostly Retired
Am I understanding this correctly? You feel that a perculator will make better coffee than a french press?
