Most reliable hops calculators

[TomBrooz]

What are the most reliable online calculators for IBUs? They all seem to return sometimes drastically different figures.

Some sources also say that boil volume and gravity do not affect utilization at all. If so, what figures should I use to calculate my bitterness. Full boil? 1.000 gravity?

Right now I can't calculate anything at all because outputs range from 10 to 35 IBUs off the same hop schedule as the calculators adjust for gravity and boil volume.

HELP!! I just don't know which number to trust.

 

[Indianhead_Brewer]

What are the most reliable online calculators for IBUs? They all seem to return sometimes drastically different figures.

Some sources also say that boil volume and gravity do not affect utilization at all. If so, what figures should I use to calculate my bitterness. Full boil? 1.000 gravity?

Right now I can't calculate anything at all because outputs range from 10 to 35 IBUs off the same hop schedule as the calculators adjust for gravity and boil volume.

HELP!! I just don't know which number to trust.

TomBrooz, I have been struggling with the same questions you have since I decided to change up my extract additions from 60 minutes to at flameout. Just that change alone ended up changing my estimated IBUs from 31 to 63 (from sort of hoppy to way hoppy). Right now I am using Brewtarget to enter my recipes and it uses Tinseth's calculations to get IBUs. I am sure other people on this forum are using Rager's calculations to derive their IBUs and I am sure if I used it for my recipe I would end up with something different.

With that being said I have been searching for more definitive answers about utilization and boil gravity just to get things straight in my mind. As Yooper said in my own post the theory regarding utilization has changed. It seems the theory now is that utilization is not clearly dependent on boil gravity in of itself, since we typically think of higher gravity wort = more sugar and lower gravity wort = less sugar (there still is a correlation of sorts though). I was listening to a podcast by Jamil Zainasheff and John Palmer from last year and they were discussing this very thing. The new theory is that with higher gravity worts (see it still has something to do with gravity, but not for the reasons we usually think - i.e. sugar content) you are providing more proteins, hot break, and cold break materials that the slightly soluble alpha acids in your wort will cling to and get taken out of solution and be removed with those waste materials.

In their discussion they did impart some information that was more useful to me than helping me to understand what the new theory is. They recommended to pick a model (whether it be Tinseth or Rager or some other) and stick with it for your own brewing process - don't jump around and just pick a model because it is telling you what you want on a given brew day. Basically they seemed to think these models should be learning based in that as you used the calculations you will learn what 35 IBUs are for your recipes/brewing process. If you taste your beer and you have a calculated 35 IBU and you don't think it is hoppy enough, kick it up to 45 the next time you brew and see what that gives you. Ultimately you will learn what 15 IBU vs. 30 IBU vs. 65 IBU means for you as a brewer and that will give you consistency. If you jump around with models you aren't going to have any consistency. Makes sense to me.

Ultimately the most reliable calculator is the one you use consistently. Hope that helps you with your journey. I for one am just going to take a leap and stick with Tinseth and adjust my recipes from there.

 

[TomBrooz]

Yeah, I've decided to go with Tinseth and have put a spreadsheet together to make hop schdules easier to produce.

I've also decided to boil with one pound per gallon dry extract consistently, and add the remainder of any malts and adjuncts at flameout. This should avoid models directing me to overhop in response to the non-existent high gravity utilisation dive monster.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Amt9Vmqd9YBAdGZKd3hhZUpQai1fSTNJTE1pOGFBaVE

Planning to do an aromatic Pale Ale and IPA to experiment a bit and get some reference points. Would love to clone the Sierra Nevada Torpedo. That thing is a beast.

 

[befus]

Just posted about this very thing in another thread. With all extract brews, all a guy would be boiling would be hops and water in an all extract recipe. The hop utilization is enormous and I wondered about just boiling 30 minutes or so to cut the IBU's. Seems even more of a guess if you are doing partial mashes or steeping which will require full boils.

 

[TomBrooz]

I think the issue here is that there's a fair chance that in fact utilization is not affected by gravity, I.e. late additions leading to low boil gravity, or on the other side low boil volumes with full extract additions early on leading to massively high gravity. Unfortunately all the calculators and formulae available still adjust for gravity, even thought the discussion and consensus on the issue seems to have moved on from this.

The reasonable thing to do is try to simulate the gravity of the brew or something close to it during the boil by adjusting the balance of early and late additions. This way the extract brewer will more accurately achieve the conditions experienced by the full boil or all grain brewer and thus make existing hop profiles and schedules produce similar results in their own brews.

Without a definitive source and calculator, it seems best to put the boil gravity in the middle and avoid overly low or high gravities, just in case there is in fact a large effect oto tall IBUs.

 

[House12]

TomBrooz, I have been struggling with the same questions you have since I decided to change up my extract additions from 60 minutes to at flameout. Just that change alone ended up changing my estimated IBUs from 31 to 63 (from sort of hoppy to way hoppy). Right now I am using Brewtarget to enter my recipes and it uses Tinseth's calculations to get IBUs. I am sure other people on this forum are using Rager's calculations to derive their IBUs and I am sure if I used it for my recipe I would end up with something different.

With that being said I have been searching for more definitive answers about utilization and boil gravity just to get things straight in my mind. As Yooper said in my own post the theory regarding utilization has changed. It seems the theory now is that utilization is not clearly dependent on boil gravity in of itself, since we typically think of higher gravity wort = more sugar and lower gravity wort = less sugar (there still is a correlation of sorts though). I was listening to a podcast by Jamil Zainasheff and John Palmer from last year and they were discussing this very thing. The new theory is that with higher gravity worts (see it still has something to do with gravity, but not for the reasons we usually think - i.e. sugar content) you are providing more proteins, hot break, and cold break materials that the slightly soluble alpha acids in your wort will cling to and get taken out of solution and be removed with those waste materials.

In their discussion they did impart some information that was more useful to me than helping me to understand what the new theory is. They recommended to pick a model (whether it be Tinseth or Rager or some other) and stick with it for your own brewing process - don't jump around and just pick a model because it is telling you what you want on a given brew day. Basically they seemed to think these models should be learning based in that as you used the calculations you will learn what 35 IBUs are for your recipes/brewing process. If you taste your beer and you have a calculated 35 IBU and you don't think it is hoppy enough, kick it up to 45 the next time you brew and see what that gives you. Ultimately you will learn what 15 IBU vs. 30 IBU vs. 65 IBU means for you as a brewer and that will give you consistency. If you jump around with models you aren't going to have any consistency. Makes sense to me.

Ultimately the most reliable calculator is the one you use consistently. Hope that helps you with your journey. I for one am just going to take a leap and stick with Tinseth and adjust my recipes from there.

It's funny that you mention Jamil, because Heretic Brewing's Evil Twin is a perfect example of how completely unreliable hop calculations are. Heretic adds no hops whatsoever to the boil in their evil twin and ends up with a measured bitterness of ~45 IBUs when the calculations for whirlpool hop additions calculate to zero.
Tinseth himself is on record saying that a brewer can expect hop calculations to be about 20% plus or minus from actual values. This, I'd say is assuming ideal conditions. Moreover, the AA values of hops indicate the AAs of entire crops/piles and are not truly indicative of the AA of what is in the few ounces you buy. Then, add to this that hop storage changes the bitterness levels.
In my opinion, Jamil and John are right in saying that the puropse of hop calculations is to give you a standard by whih to plan your beers. As long as you can create good beer consistently, the measured vs. calculated IBUs make no difference.

 

[befus]

It's funny that you mention Jamil, because Heretic Brewing's Evil Twin is a perfect example of how completely unreliable hop calculations are. Heretic adds no hops whatsoever to the boil in their evil twin and ends up with a measured bitterness of ~45 IBUs when the calculations for whirlpool hop additions calculate to zero.
Tinseth himself is on record saying that a brewer can expect hop calculations to be about 20% plus or minus from actual values. This, I'd say is assuming ideal conditions. Moreover, the AA values of hops indicate the AAs of entire crops/piles and are not truly indicative of the AA of what is in the few ounces you buy. Then, add to this that hop storage changes the bitterness levels.
In my opinion, Jamil and John are right in saying that the puropse of hop calculations is to give you a standard by whih to plan your beers. As long as you can create good beer consistently, the measured vs. calculated IBUs make no difference.

I agree in principle, but using Hopville's calculator the IBU's in a bitter using a full boil and just steeped grains goes from a full boil of 30 to 49. To me that is just too wide to 'average' as 30 is the low end for a bitter. If one really wanted it to be low end the guestimate for hop utilization in an extract brew would have to go well below that. If wrong you might get a good beer, but not a bitter. I think I will adjust hop amounts according to the calc rather than hoping the folks who say it doesn't matter are right.

 

[Calder]

This is all part of the art of brewing, with a little bit of shaky science to guide us.

The science itself is in question; full boil vs. partial boil, Tinseth vs Gareth vs Rager, max IBUs possible, etc. I don't know anyone who can tell me which is right.

There are many variables in ones own set up too. The best way is to use the same calculator, and keep the same brewing process, and compare your results with commercial examples. Consistency is the best way to overcome many of these variables.

 

[House12]

I agree in principle, but using Hopville's calculator the IBU's in a bitter using a full boil and just steeped grains goes from a full boil of 30 to 49. To me that is just too wide to 'average' as 30 is the low end for a bitter. If one really wanted it to be low end the guestimate for hop utilization in an extract brew would have to go well below that. If wrong you might get a good beer, but not a bitter. I think I will adjust hop amounts according to the calc rather than hoping the folks who say it doesn't matter are right.

I'm not saying it doesn't matter. What I'm saying is that what matters is how the beer tastes rather than how it calculates. If I consistently use the same Rager calculations, I know what I can expect my bitterness results to be. Whether my bitter is at 40 ibus doesn't matter...what matters is that it tastes like a 40 ibu beer. This requires trial and error -- especially for partial boil brewers.

There are great interviews out there with Tinseth where he discusses his calculations. He is very clear that his data is accurate for his style of brewing and for his equipment. The rest of us can use the formula as a rough estimation, and let trial and error develop our recipes. Personally, I think the claims about diminished hop utilization in partial boils are a bit overstated. However, you can always add more hops to the recipe if you think you should. The calculations aren't very accurate anyways (and are moreor less accurate depending on the brewer), so I'd argue that making a good bitter is more important than hitting 40 ibus by measurement.

 

[TomBrooz]

I'm not saying it doesn't matter. What I'm saying is that what matters is how the beer tastes rather than how it calculates. If I consistently use the same Rager calculations, I know what I can expect my bitterness results to be. Whether my bitter is at 40 ibus doesn't matter...what matters is that it tastes like a 40 ibu beer. This requires trial and error -- especially for partial boil brewers.

There are great interviews out there with Tinseth where he discusses his calculations. He is very clear that his data is accurate for his style of brewing and for his equipment. The rest of us can use the formula as a rough estimation, and let trial and error develop our recipes. Personally, I think the claims about diminished hop utilization in partial boils are a bit overstated. However, you can always add more hops to the recipe if you think you should. The calculations aren't very accurate anyways (and are moreor less accurate depending on the brewer), so I'd argue that making a good bitter is more important than hitting 40 ibus by measurement.

True true. Sources commonly state that another factor influencing hop utilization is the vigor of the boil, a variable which is just about impossible to measure and reproduce accurately. Even if you were to entirely reproduce a recipe, different burners and pots could influence results. I think we all need to calibrate our setup by taste first and take the experience into subsequent brews. Quite apart from this, the influence of flavor and aroma is not explicitly calculated, but we all seem to get by with reference to existing practices and experience.

It appears the only solution involves brewing and drinking more beer.

 

[House12]

It appears the only solution involves brewing and drinking more beer.

It's a tough life that we live...

Something else that comes to mind is that none of us likely has the ability to measure our IBUs. All we can do is compare our bitterness to our favorite brews, but even many great breweries don't bother to actually measure their IBUs.

So with respect to which formula is most accurate, I really have no way to judge if my beer at '40 IBUs rager' = '40 IBUs measured' except to compare it to a 40 IBU commercial beer (which may not even be 40 IBUs anyways since the brewery may just be estimating rather than measuring that bitterness). Then, of course, the freshness of the beer also impacts whether the 40 IBU commercial beer is itself still as bitter as a 40 IBU beer should be.

 

[TomBrooz]

It's a tough life that we live...

Something else that comes to mind is that none of us likely has the ability to measure our IBUs. All we can do is compare our bitterness to our favorite brews, but even many great breweries don't bother to actually measure their IBUs.

So with respect to which formula is most accurate, I really have no way to judge if my beer at '40 IBUs rager' = '40 IBUs measured' except to compare it to a 40 IBU commercial beer (which may not even be 40 IBUs anyways since the brewery may just be estimating rather than measuring that bitterness). Then, of course, the freshness of the beer also impacts whether the 40 IBU commercial beer is itself still as bitter as a 40 IBU beer should be.

I would argue that nobody has the ability to measure IBUs accurately, and that's why we're in this situation. If IBUs could be measured accurately, surely there would be less debate. Measurements on Ph, temperature and gravity are all definitive. However I doubt anything short of gas chromatography could accurately measure bitterness, and even then may be subject to interpretation. Given the differences in the common models and formulae, I assume that they are calculated more by theory and extrapolation than any kind of accurate and measurable data.

Kind of annoying I guess, but it is nice that there is still some magic to the process.