moroccan winter ale advice needed

[gtlaw10]

ok so hey all -
i am trying to decide which moroccan 'mother' spice combination to add to this brew. i have a choice between (obviously) the savory mother and the sweet mother. but first to the beer it will be added to:

Extract/2.4gal
OG: 1.084
FG: 1.020
SRM: 25
IBU: 48
Primary: 31 days @66F
Bottle: prime w/brown sugar

Briess Golden Light LME - 4lb
Briess Bavarian Wheat LME - 1lb
Crystal 120L - 8oz
CaraPils - 8oz
Victory - 4oz
Black Patent - 2oz
Horizon (8%) - 1oz @60mins
Cascade (6%) - 1/2oz @10mins
Centennial - 1/2oz @0mins
Danstar Nottingham - 1 pkg


now for the mother spices:
Savory contains ginger, turmeric, saffron and black pepper, parsley and cilantro.
Sweet contains ginger, cinnamon, turmeric, saffron, white pepper, honey and cilantro.

i've worked out the appropriate ratios and quantities for each ingredient. i need some input as to which would work better with the base winter ale recipe as well as when to add the fresh herbs versus dried spices, i was thinking dried spices near end of boil and fresh herbs as krausen is falling...
thanks!

 

[Reno_eNVy]

I'd vote for the sweet mother spice combination... it sounds delicious, almost like a beefed up SA Winter Lager.

Be sure to post results when you're done!

 

[teucer]

Whereas I'd vote for the savory - in the other, the honey won't sweeten the beer, it'll just boost the gravity and attenuation a little. The cilantro, on the other hand, sounds like a fascinating touch.

 

[kh54s10]

I think I would leave out the spices!

 

[gtlaw10]

I'd vote for the sweet mother spice combination... it sounds delicious, almost like a beefed up SA Winter Lager. Be sure to post results when you're done!

Thanks for the feedback! If I go with sweet I could then add fruits such as prunes, figs, or dates to a secondary...typically moroccan's use the dried versions of these - would that be crap vs fresh fruits?
This is a months in the future brew, but I will be sure to report back, most likely sometime next winter.

Whereas I'd vote for the savory - in the other, the honey won't sweeten the beer, it'll just boost the gravity and attenuation a little. The cilantro, on the other hand, sounds like a fascinating touch.

Good point with the honey, but see the above potential addition with the sweet option. However, the savory option is not without it's fruit...however it is preserved lemon. This is a VERY distinct flavor, extremely sour and tangy lemon. it is essentially lemon preserved in salt and juice, while most of the salt is washed away when rinsed, would boiling to sanitize pose a problem due to the remaining salt - would I even want to add salty things to a beer? Of it's feasible, and I can figure out a small enough quantity to be subtle, this could be wildly interesting.

I think I would leave out the spices!

Thanks sir - but it wouldn't be moroccan without spice.

 

[teucer]

Good point with the honey, but see the above potential addition with the sweet option. However, the savory option is not without it's fruit...however it is preserved lemon. This is a VERY distinct flavor, extremely sour and tangy lemon. it is essentially lemon preserved in salt and juice, while most of the salt is washed away when rinsed, would boiling to sanitize pose a problem due to the remaining salt - would I even want to add salty things to a beer? Of it's feasible, and I can figure out a small enough quantity to be subtle, this could be wildly interesting.

A tiny bit of preserved lemon - not enough to be too sour or too salty - could be delicious. Think of that bit of salty flavor in a Leipziger Gose.

 

[ThreeIfByBike]

I love this idea. I'm thinking a summer version though and definitely preserved lemon!

 

[acidrain23]

I'm not sure which would be better, but I think this is a great idea! I've been thinking about using Ras El Hanout in a brew. Maybe some date syrup too!

 

[gtlaw10]

A tiny bit of preserved lemon - not enough to be too sour or too salty - could be delicious. Think of that bit of salty flavor in a Leipziger Gose.

hmmm i haven't had the pleasure of such a brew yet, but since I'm not going to be brewing this until september i have time to source one

I love this idea. I'm thinking a summer version though and definitely preserved lemon!

thanks! your logic here is what makes me want to swing towards doing the winter version with the sweet, summer lends itself to tangyness, salt, and IMHO summer brews would work better with that profile, a crisp, dry summer ale with ginger, turmeric, saffron, black pepper, parsley, cilantro and preserved lemon...tasty. a sweet, thick, roasty winter ale with ginger, turmeric, cinnamon, saffron, cilantro, figs, and dates/apricots...tasty.

I'm not sure which would be better, but I think this is a great idea! I've been thinking about using Ras El Hanout in a brew. Maybe some date syrup too!

heh! i love ras el hanout, swmbo and myself make our blend, it's a ***** to mortar and pestle the 33 ingredients though. used it to roast some sweet potatoes, acorn squash, and zucchini tonight - absolutely delicious.
i also love dates...they are definitely going into the sweet version.

any more input from the mighty collective?? still curious about fresh herb additions...

 

[GrizBrew]

I'm ya Huckleberry!! I am gonna brew a Summer version of this today. I'll let you know how it turns out!

 

[gtlaw10]

awesome man!! please do let me know your thoughts.
i assume the grist is different than what i posted, since you're going with the summer version. let me know what you settled on if you could.
hope it's delicious!

 

[GrizBrew]

I made a couple of of changes. Here's what I did:
4 lb Light LME
1 lb Bavarian Wheat LME
8oz Crystal 120L
8oz Dextrine
4 oz Victory
2 oz Black Patent

Magnum (20%) - 1oz @ 60
2 C Honey @ 30
Thumb sized piece of fresh Ginger (grated) @ 20
Thumb sized piece of fresh Turmeric (grated)@ 20
1/8 cup Grains of Paradise @ 15
Pinch of Saffron @ 15
Irish Moss-pinch @ 15
Cascade (6%) - 1/2oz @10
Centennial - 1/2oz @ 5

Danstar Nottingham - 1 pkg @ 80 degreesish

I will add these to secondary:

3 or four small slices of preserved lemon
1 cup fresh Cilantro
1 cup fresh Fennel


I ended up with 1.046 OG which was right on the Beersmith numbers. I'm looking at 5.3 % ABV if all goes well.

It turned out about the color of honey maybe a tad darker. The yeast is working away this morning. It didn't take off like crazy as I had read about the Nottingham. It seems to be just chugging along. I hope adding the honey doesn't stress it too much. I considered waiting until the Krausen dropped a little but decided that this was a hearty yeast so I went with it in the boil.

It tasted fantastic going into the carboy. It was a little bitter but the Magnum should mellow over time. I'm gonna go 2 weeks in primary and 2 weeks in secondary, then keg it.

I am doing an Iron Brewer competition with my Homebrew Club (ya know like Iron Chef on Food Network?) where you draw an ingredient and you have to brew something with it. I drew fennel and thought this would be a good platform. I brewed another fennel beer yesterday as well and will enter whichever turns out the best.

The Winter one sounds beautiful too. I think the sweet Dates and Figs sound yummy. I will try that next year!

Thanks for the idea

 

[gtlaw10]

what you've got going sounds amazing! i wish you the best of luck, i see fennel occasionally here and there in moroccan cuisine so this could be incredible when finished.
i am looking forward to brewing the winter one early fall of this year and posting the results come 2013.
and can i just say...20% magnum - DAMN! they must have been grown in the most perfect of conditions with the tenderest of care.

 

[GrizBrew]

It went into secondary today. Absolutely fantastic. A super complex brew. I am going to give it a week or so in secondary and add a little fresh fennel, cilantro and preserved lemon. I think this one is gonna be outta this world!

 

[GrizBrew]

Went to keg today. I must say, this is a really interesting beer. It is a beautiful dark amber color but wonderfully clear. The flavors are complex, so far maybe a little too complex. I hope after a little aging they will meld. It's very good, just a little disjointed.

 

[gtlaw10]

getting the right ratio of additions is the challenging part, and you have to keep in mind that these are flavors which blend together in a clay pot for 4+ hours at 300F traditionally.
FWIW the ratio of ginger to turmeric in moroccan food is generally 2 to 1. The use of cilantro is always sparing as it is such a powerful herb, usually only a small bunch is used in a given recipe, either chopped or just tied together and included. fennel hasn't shown up in any of the moroccan recipes i was referencing for the mother combinations - but they do use it in other recipes. saffron is usually toasted and crushed for between 1/4 - 1/2 tsp.
hopefully given time it will blend for you, but i doubt it will blend itself quite like the savory mother combination does.
thanks for keeping us updated as well griz - much appreciated.

 

[GrizBrew]

I tasted again last night. It' s not carbed yet but, I think the fennel ruined it. It was great before that addition. I think it is the fennel because I made a second fennel beer at the same time (brew club is having an Iron Brewer competition, I drew fennel) and they both have that same rotten flavor in the background.....I guess ya gotta shank one every now and then. I' ll prolly do it again with no fennel. Still have saffron in the cupboard. Bummer, I guess I'm not winning the Iron Brewer this year....

 

[gtlaw10]

sorry to hear that my man - but as we all know time can heal a lot of things and with the amount of flavors you have bouncing around in those bottles time is probably you're friend here.
fennel is definitely a unique flavor too...i liken it to licorice, i'm betting that given time it'll be tolerable.

if you want to try the savory mother again here's what i would suggest in a 5 gal batch (preferably wheat based) for relatively strong flavoring (if you want it less powerful just do the math and maintain the ratios):
make a tea with-

2tsp ground ginger
1tsp ground turmeric
1/2tsp ground black pepper
1/4tsp crumbled toasted saffron threads
one small handful each of cilantro and parsley (flat or curly) chopped
chopped flesh of one preserved lemon, seeds removed, discard rind

add this tea to primary after krausen falls.

 

[GrizBrew]

I will definitely do it again.I tried it again today with a little carbonation and it is getting better.I think you are right about time...The fennel is not really all too licorice like. In both beers it's flavor really changed. I cook with fennel often making biscuits and gravy and red sauces using it heavily. I am very familiar with the flavor it imparts when heated. The infusion with alcohol gave it a very different flavor in both beers. It was bitter. Maybe I should've taken it out earlier. I would definitely try this one again sans fennel. FWIW the wife loves it. We'll see how it all shakes out over the next few weeks.