If you rinse after using Starsan your equipment is no longer sanitary. It is now only as sanitary as the water you used to rinse and any contaminates that got to the equipment after it was rinsed.
Might give up on homebrew :(
- Thread starter DreBourbon
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If you rinse after using Starsan your equipment is no longer sanitary. It is now only as sanitary as the water you used to rinse and any contaminates that got to the equipment after it was rinsed.
normonster
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If you want to cover the bases, then you do have to do more than boil grain and hops in tap water and wait a week.
In all seriousness, buy Beersmith (setting up profile will be easy because you've had your system for over a year), get a fermentation chamber and a temp controller (read on temps and technique and keep the **** happy), get a gram scale, the proper chemicals and a pH meter and download Brew'n Water (again read stuff and learn how to use a pH meter and adjust your water). If you want to finish it up nicely, also get a used fridge and lager your beer for a month before you drink it (it will clear, and for some reason, it just tastes better, and not just a little bit better IMO).
It's really that simple. What you're doing now is like hittin the spank bank with a piece of sand paper on your hand.....lube your process and enjoy the results, all over.
normonster
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See above post. Will you do those things? Of course not. That is why you got a smart-ass remark. Everyone wants their beer to be awesome but no one wants to sit down with a book and a pH meter or a stack of chemicals and a computer program and try to figure it out. If you did want to do that, you'd have found this information already as it is posted countless times in thousands of threads by hundreds of forum members. Everybody knows that temp control and water are paramount if you're going to try and achieve a truly awesome beer. If you can't buy those things mentioned above all at once, you have to prioritize. Step 1, temp control. Plus I'm a low quality human being.
I'm going to share my secrets of being a happy homebrew'r. Now keep in mind I'm not saying that you must do this...and I'm not saying that can't find homebrew happiness with different approaches. I'm simply saying this is what makes me happy...
1. Share your beer with friends. If your friends are enjoying your homebrew and you're sitting there going "it tastes a little off" the problem is not your beer..its you. RDWHAHB
2. Don't try to clone beers...feel free to pay homage to a beer you like by trying to produce something that resembles it but forget about duplicating. It's more fun to drink your version of something than producing the very same product anyone gets from the corner store
3. See rule #1. Really...if your friends are enjoying it then you are a beer - God ... Revel in It. Stop beating yourself up
4. Only use liquid yeast..you can't make decent beer with dry yeast
5. Ha ha...got ya....dry yeast is fine as long as you rack to secondary after 1 week
6. Ha ha...got ya again...hater.... See what I mean..I'm having fun and so can you
7. See rule #1
1. Share your beer with friends. If your friends are enjoying your homebrew and you're sitting there going "it tastes a little off" the problem is not your beer..its you. RDWHAHB
2. Don't try to clone beers...feel free to pay homage to a beer you like by trying to produce something that resembles it but forget about duplicating. It's more fun to drink your version of something than producing the very same product anyone gets from the corner store
3. See rule #1. Really...if your friends are enjoying it then you are a beer - God ... Revel in It. Stop beating yourself up
4. Only use liquid yeast..you can't make decent beer with dry yeast
5. Ha ha...got ya....dry yeast is fine as long as you rack to secondary after 1 week
6. Ha ha...got ya again...hater.... See what I mean..I'm having fun and so can you
7. See rule #1
I get that, and I'm fine with it. My tap water is pretty clean.
So is my air. It's not like I'm sanitizing the air in my kitchen or backyard. And my dogs, a scurry of squirrels, and at least one opossum all poop back there. And the birds! The birds, man! They poop right in the air!
normonster
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< Almost always goes to secondary. Has even gone tertiary.
The argument here is, is it fermentation?
/battle stations!
The argument here is, is it fermentation?
/battle stations!
eigua
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Well, first off, let me say that I suck at making beer -- almost certainly worse than you. I've only done 5 batches over ~6 years: 3 extracts and 2 all grain, and all of them except the first have been a total mess in one way or another. There are just SOOOO many things that can go wrong.
My advice: If you enjoy homebrewing like I do but can't hack beer or are not interested in investing the time, money, and effort necessary to really perfect your process, try your hand at fruit wine, cider, mead, and/or rice wine instead. All of the above are a lot more forgiving than beer making IMO, and it will allow you to practice some of the common skills (sanitation, pitching, racking, bottling, etc.) without having to worry about as many variables. I'm not saying making a really great wine or mead is easy or any easier than making a really great beer, but it sure seems a lot easier to get at least something acceptable.
So even if you can't make great beer, you don't have to give up on homebrewing entirely if you enjoy it.
normonster
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OMG!!!! haha. Tertiary. Next time someone post about secondary or not, I'm voting tertiary. If yer gunna do it, do it real gewd. HAHA
Citizen86
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Wow... I read #4 and was all ready to quote you right there and be like "You know what buddy...."
Then I read #5 and was like.... well... that's one opinion..
Then I read #6
Well played, good sir
Wow... I read #4 and was all ready to quote you right there and be like "You know what buddy...."
Then I read #5 and was like.... well... that's one opinion..
Then I read #6
Well played, good sir
Thank you gracious sir!
DreBourbon
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There's always one troll tough guy who ruins it for everyone. You probably make great beer but you drink it alone cause you're a ******.
Wow... I read #4 and was all ready to quote you right there and be like "You know what buddy...."
Then I read #5 and was like.... well... that's one opinion..
Then I read #6
Well played, good sir
I was ready to ninja star him with packs of Fermentis, but then I thought that might be his plan, because Fermentis rocks.
This is the right direction, I think. RO water, the A Brewing Water Chemistry Primer thread, and precise fermentation temperature control are the first three things I would ask you about - after sanitation and general cleanliness of course.
Brewing good, stable beer is straightforward ... generally. Use good ingredients - including water - control mash and fermentation temperatures, and use good cleaning and sanitizing methods.
Mastering brewing takes much longer - perhaps a lifetime for some. However, basic good beer is not beyond the beginner if they read, learn, and use proper methods.
If you are using tap water, particularly if you are on city water, try an RO batch or two. And definitely control the temperatures of both mash and fermentation. I was not happy with my beer until I got these three factors - water, mash temp, and fermentation temp - under control.
Good Luck,
Cody
I think the main ideas/processes have been touched on here. Sanitation/cleaning is more of the task than most expect it to be, make sure you don't lose you focus on that, but don't become to anal about it either.
Depending on the style your going for ferm temps can play a major role or not, Belgians can be a little more forgiving, if you can keep them temp in the mid to uppers 60's for the first few days then let it free rise your fine. Doing that with an IPA with the Chico strain isn't ideal, it'll work and make drinkable beer, but you'll likely get some of flavors.
Mastering is like mastering anything, is anybody really a master? Brewing beer is like cooking food, you might think you can make the best filet in the world, somebody with different tastes than you might think it's good or great but not the best. Homebrew because you want control of what YOU want not what others want. If others love it and can drink it all day, that's great for you, but everybody has different tastes don't forget this.
I have read many, many, many articles about water. Somebody on the west coast and somebody else on the East Coast of the US can make a beer following the same recipe. After it's brewed and fermented, assuming controlled ferm temps the beer will have some differences in taste if all the used is local water tha's available. Water is a HUGE part of the end product, so unless you know and can match the water profile of a beer you want to "clone" expect some differences in taste.
I'll be moving to a new house that whole house water filtration and RO water, will be interesting to learn what I need to change about the water to make a couple batches that I've been making for a few years now. Don't be overly critical, figure out what it is that you don't like in the beers you've made and focus on what thing at a time.
What styles are you trying to make, any links to recipes that you haven't been happy with? At the end of the day you need to be happy with what you're making. I find that buying some commercial beers is easier to figure out wat I want to make instead of making stuff myself, yes it's more expensive, but like most hobbies nobody will claim that home brewing will save you money.
If you want to make stouts let us know, if you're looking at IPA's let us know that, wheats, belgians, barrel aged, or chip soaked, pales, what ABV do you prefer, etc. There's a few aspects that play into all of those and over time you'll learn things that will help, what mas temps contribute to the end product, what the difference between first wort hopping does compared to normal 60 min additions, checking pH of your mash, darker styles need this checked more so that lighter styles. If you're not using dark malts and using tap water your likely fine, but still good to check to see where your're at and if you need to look into making changes.
A the end of the day if yo're getting frustrated and not happy with what you're making be willing to post what you did, the recipe, ferm temps, times, how you bottles/kegged, etc. Theres plent of people willing to help but you'll need to be able to layout your process if you want help.
Depending on the style your going for ferm temps can play a major role or not, Belgians can be a little more forgiving, if you can keep them temp in the mid to uppers 60's for the first few days then let it free rise your fine. Doing that with an IPA with the Chico strain isn't ideal, it'll work and make drinkable beer, but you'll likely get some of flavors.
Mastering is like mastering anything, is anybody really a master? Brewing beer is like cooking food, you might think you can make the best filet in the world, somebody with different tastes than you might think it's good or great but not the best. Homebrew because you want control of what YOU want not what others want. If others love it and can drink it all day, that's great for you, but everybody has different tastes don't forget this.
I have read many, many, many articles about water. Somebody on the west coast and somebody else on the East Coast of the US can make a beer following the same recipe. After it's brewed and fermented, assuming controlled ferm temps the beer will have some differences in taste if all the used is local water tha's available. Water is a HUGE part of the end product, so unless you know and can match the water profile of a beer you want to "clone" expect some differences in taste.
I'll be moving to a new house that whole house water filtration and RO water, will be interesting to learn what I need to change about the water to make a couple batches that I've been making for a few years now. Don't be overly critical, figure out what it is that you don't like in the beers you've made and focus on what thing at a time.
What styles are you trying to make, any links to recipes that you haven't been happy with? At the end of the day you need to be happy with what you're making. I find that buying some commercial beers is easier to figure out wat I want to make instead of making stuff myself, yes it's more expensive, but like most hobbies nobody will claim that home brewing will save you money.
If you want to make stouts let us know, if you're looking at IPA's let us know that, wheats, belgians, barrel aged, or chip soaked, pales, what ABV do you prefer, etc. There's a few aspects that play into all of those and over time you'll learn things that will help, what mas temps contribute to the end product, what the difference between first wort hopping does compared to normal 60 min additions, checking pH of your mash, darker styles need this checked more so that lighter styles. If you're not using dark malts and using tap water your likely fine, but still good to check to see where your're at and if you need to look into making changes.
A the end of the day if yo're getting frustrated and not happy with what you're making be willing to post what you did, the recipe, ferm temps, times, how you bottles/kegged, etc. Theres plent of people willing to help but you'll need to be able to layout your process if you want help.
madscientist451
Well-Known Member
Two suggestions:
-Stop using kits of any kind. Instead, simply pick a style of beer you like,
look for a recipe here on HBT or elsewhere that has user comments, obtain the ingredients and a BIAB bag and go try that.
-Try a different water source. Buy "spring water" in jugs at the store or use
50/50 spring water and distilled.
Don't forget to rehydrate those packs before you pitch.
I don't--and it works just fine. S-04 takes off like a rocket and finishes in 3-5 days.
I brewed on Wednesday and as usual I just sprinkled the packet into the wort as normal. This was about 2pm. Nine hours later--11pm--I was getting airlock activity, and by morning I had a Krausen going. Today--Saturday morning--the krausen has dropped (that happened yesterday) and it's still bubbling along.
I'm planning on brewing my Rye beer tomorrow and for that I'll use a starter with WLP980.
Here's a Brulosophy exbeeriment comparing dry sprinkled versus reconstituted:
http://brulosophy.com/2014/09/15/sprinkled-vs-rehydrated-dry-yeast-exbeeriment-results/
Let's stay on topic, and keep off topic and smart remarks out of it, shall we?
I NEVER made a decent beer out of those types of kits, and I'm a pretty decent brewer, so on that I'd blame the kit. The "sour" taste might come from a month in the fermenter with a big headspace, but most likely it's the yeast and simple sugar together with warm temperature fermentation. I'd forget those kits, and either do a regular extract kit with fresh extract (dry, not canned), hops, freshly crushed grains, and a good quality yeast.
I don't know the water in Ottawa, but my water here where I live tastes great but is not suited to brewing. It's hard, and high in bicarbonate. Something as simple as trying one batch with distilled or reverse osmosis water (NOT spring water or bottled drinking water) may be one way to check. Just for one batch, use distilled water. Pitch good quality yeast, and hold at 65 degrees for two weeks and then keg. If the beer still has an off flavor, you can look at brewing techniques. If not, you know it was the water.
I NEVER made a decent beer out of those types of kits, and I'm a pretty decent brewer, so on that I'd blame the kit. The "sour" taste might come from a month in the fermenter with a big headspace, but most likely it's the yeast and simple sugar together with warm temperature fermentation. I'd forget those kits, and either do a regular extract kit with fresh extract (dry, not canned), hops, freshly crushed grains, and a good quality yeast.
I don't know the water in Ottawa, but my water here where I live tastes great but is not suited to brewing. It's hard, and high in bicarbonate. Something as simple as trying one batch with distilled or reverse osmosis water (NOT spring water or bottled drinking water) may be one way to check. Just for one batch, use distilled water. Pitch good quality yeast, and hold at 65 degrees for two weeks and then keg. If the beer still has an off flavor, you can look at brewing techniques. If not, you know it was the water.
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DreBourbon
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Sounds good. Thanks
Ah. Another battle for the ages.
I used to make a starter 24 hours or so in advance. Then, I read about cellular mutation and generally changing the biology of the yeast to work on what the starter is rather than what the wort is. Here's the thing about that, and I operate an activated sludge wastewater facility. We use microbes to change one thing in water to another, and we do it by the millions of gallons.
All sugar is not the same, but it is all sugar. We're not making the yeast swap between totally different food sources or completely different environments. They may have to change their eating habits a little, but it's not a drastic change. The drastic change is when they deplete their food source and increase the alcohol content. That happens in the wort. I wasn't making 5%+ ABV starters that went for two weeks.
We buy yeast of a particular strain. These are not wildly diverse populations of microbes. We're not going to make it to where microbe W takes over microbe A by changing the environment to suit one over the other. There isn't that diversity present to begin with in the pre selected population we deliberately pitch.
We're not changing the environment enough, nor dealing with a large enough environment, for it to really matter.
It is possible to screw up the food to microorganisms ratio, F/M, enough to starve our "bugs", but it's not probable. The biggest, realest drawback to making large long time starters with dry yeast is that it's just unnecessary. Dry pitching works fine. Rehydrating in a food source for a few hours works fine. So does making starters, but after reading, brewing, and going back and forth over the matter, I just don't see the benefit. I now rehydrate, and everything is okay.
GrogNerd
mean old man
I'd go with
fixes
- quality of ingredients
- water
fixes
- make sure the hopped LME is fresh as possible. I'd suggest going with dry extract + specialty grains if possible and pick the hops you want
you can do a partial boil if you don't have a big enough pot or strong enough heat source, then top off to desired batch size - with extract, the minerals have already been added, so you're better off with RO or distilled water, rather than tap
jgarretson
Well-Known Member
You mention you keg, are you serving through a tap of some sort I assume. Are you cleaning your tap lines?
All of the suggestions in the other replies are great but I know my tapped beer had a much different flavor than when I bottle, one that could be described as sour when I don't clean my lines.
Honestly we as homebrewers manage to complicate the living heck out of this hobby. If you do start making changes, just make one per batch so you have some controls. And check out brulosophy for some interesting findings on all the complications we all preach as gospel on these boards.
All of the suggestions in the other replies are great but I know my tapped beer had a much different flavor than when I bottle, one that could be described as sour when I don't clean my lines.
Honestly we as homebrewers manage to complicate the living heck out of this hobby. If you do start making changes, just make one per batch so you have some controls. And check out brulosophy for some interesting findings on all the complications we all preach as gospel on these boards.
DreBourbon
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So I think I figured it out and before everyone calls me an idiot ( I guess I am) I realized my mistake.
When I first started brewing I bought a used kit online and it came with an auto syphon (see where I'm going here). I've been using this syphon to transfer every batch I've ever made. I'd sanitize before every use but I'm thinking this is what's contaminating my batches. Makes sense? And yes I know "Do not buy used brewing equipment " learned that the hard way.
When I first started brewing I bought a used kit online and it came with an auto syphon (see where I'm going here). I've been using this syphon to transfer every batch I've ever made. I'd sanitize before every use but I'm thinking this is what's contaminating my batches. Makes sense? And yes I know "Do not buy used brewing equipment " learned that the hard way.
Kjay
Well-Known Member
Hey DreBourbon if the offer still stands with Kombat about being able to participate during on of his Brew Days I would. I found I gained tons being able to participate during brew days at my friends place prior to me getting my own system. As well as having the experience there for a brewday of your own. Lots of questions and conversation about technique, process etc will come about.
Good Luck,
Kris
Good Luck,
Kris
GrogNerd
mean old man
lol. I just bought a used auto-siphon
but dedicated to use on my Basque (sour) cider, not my beer
KartRacer54
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Yooper has the answer. Don't give up just change how you do things. Beer kits with DME work great. I am all grain Brewer and still use kits for quick turnaround.
Keep working your process you will get great beer.
Keep working your process you will get great beer.
DreBourbon
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Oh you're so funny.
UndeadFred
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What Yooper said on water plus watching your temperature control during ferment. Do a darker colored beer to take out pH as a variable.
Bleach that auto siphon or get a new one. Do the same with your fermenters. Quat sanitizer (quaternary ammonium chloride) works as well as Bleach if you are afraid of a bleach taste but both need to be 100% rinsed off.
I'm thinking if you had it both on all grain and extract (if I read the first post right) that temperature control might be your biggest problem. Infections usually will eventually manifest themselves as a pellicle, and water issues.. well are different off flavors.
Don't give up if you enjoy doing it... think of running down this problem as the next fun goal. Clean everything as well as you can, use a different sanitizer than you normally do for this cleaning... then use RO or distilled water, and then make sure your fermentation is temp controlled. If that doesn't do it then I'd start to panic. Good luck man...
Bleach that auto siphon or get a new one. Do the same with your fermenters. Quat sanitizer (quaternary ammonium chloride) works as well as Bleach if you are afraid of a bleach taste but both need to be 100% rinsed off.
I'm thinking if you had it both on all grain and extract (if I read the first post right) that temperature control might be your biggest problem. Infections usually will eventually manifest themselves as a pellicle, and water issues.. well are different off flavors.
Don't give up if you enjoy doing it... think of running down this problem as the next fun goal. Clean everything as well as you can, use a different sanitizer than you normally do for this cleaning... then use RO or distilled water, and then make sure your fermentation is temp controlled. If that doesn't do it then I'd start to panic. Good luck man...
The_Bishop
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I don't know what you're talking about here, but rehydrating yeast is not 'making a starter' and dry pitching results in roughly 50% of the cells remaining viable. Dry pitching is not recommended by *anyone* with any knowledge of yeast.
I don't want to get into a big argument here, but I pitch Safale S-04 dry, and the makers recommend exactly that on the package.
Here's what it says on the packet: Dosage is 11.5g (one package) into 20-30 liters. Pitching: "Sprinkle into wort."
No rehydration, no starter, just sprinkle. I suspect they know something about yeast....
I've used this yeast a number of times and made very good beer with it. Usually have krausen within 12 hours, and it is generally finished by 5 days.
I've also made starters out of Wyeast and WLP, and they worked well too. And it's certainly possible that if I rehydrated the dry yeast or did so and created a starter, it might work even better. May try that some day.
But the idea that sprinkling dry yeast into the wort is somehow terrible is borne out neither by the makers of that yeast or the results I've obtained.
hoppyhoppyhippo
Well-Known Member
I'll keep my advise long and complex
I've been brewing on and off because of money and partners for a long time. I think I'm at about 5 or 6 years. My first go arounds I got some kits and followed the instructions and the beers were like you said. Something wasn't quite right. Eventually things got really nasty and sour. So I stepped back and read cover to cover How to Brew and the Complete Joy of Homebrewing, and found out my mistakes. I hammered them out. Made the instant switch to partial mash and my beers were excellent. I have a batch of a belgian golden strong from I think 4 years ago that still to this day is holding up. Honestly my mistakes were in cleanliness. I ditched the onestar "sanitizer" for Starsan. That was my biggest thing. That and learning the why and following the reason for those steps.
I have been brewing for around 3.5 years now and have never had off flavors, made a couple batches that weren't good, but those problems were in the recipes. As a few others have stated I would lean towards cleanliness being the issue. Somewhere i have hear that many pro brewers will tell you not to go pro unless you like cleaning the equipment, it's 90% cleaning and 10% brewing...
Use pbw and clean everything really well, then use star San to sanitize things as you use them. I say to us these two products because they're proven to be reliable, not saying bleach or iodophor aren't, just saying that these two are probably the most widely used and recommended.
Use pbw and clean everything really well, then use star San to sanitize things as you use them. I say to us these two products because they're proven to be reliable, not saying bleach or iodophor aren't, just saying that these two are probably the most widely used and recommended.
While sprinkling dry yeast on the wort will work (is not terrible) and is what is on the package, if you go to the dry yeast manufacturer's website you will probably find the recommendation to re-hydrate.
What they know is that the average brewer does an average beer and they don't want to complicate things for the less accomplished brewer. They know it will ferment the average beer....
You say when you sprinkle the yeast you get krausen in 12 hours... When I pitch rehydrated yeast I often get the beginnings of krausen in as little as 4 hours.
If you just want to make beer, dry pitch or use liquid yeast out of the package. If you want to give your beer the best chance to be the best it can be - rehydrate or make a starter.
Though I can't say how much my beer improved by rehydrating or starters because I have only dry pitched 2 batches and have never used liquid yeast without making a starter.
kombat
Well-Known Member
The data sheet on the manufacturer's website says:
They list the "sprinkle dry" instructions as an "alternative" to the preferred method, i.e., rehydration.
Actually, it comes from the definitive book "Yeast," which cites research that concludes that sprinkling dry yeast directly into wort reduces cell viability by up to 50%. One of the authors of "Yeast" is Chris White, founder and owner of Whitelabs Yeast. So yes, indeed one of the "makers of yeast" does indeed recommend against sprinkling dry.
I appreciate your and kh54s10's discussion on this, especially the tone. No "you dummy, you!" rhetoric, just reasoned and even discussion.
That said, I'm a little surprised they wouldn't have said, on the sachet itself, "rehydrate; if you can't, you can sprinkle, but the preferred method is rehydrate."
Even in the data sheet you reference, it doesn't say recommended or preferred; it says rehydration instructions and an alternative is to pitch dry, directly into the wort.
I have that book, have read it (I'm in the HOPS book of that series right now, have read MALT and WATER).
Here's the problem I have: Chris White is a competitor to Fermentis, so I won't take everything he says at face value, absolutely. That doesn't mean he's doing that, and I'm not trying to cast aspersions, but one always should ask where a person's vested interests lie, if they have any. It's just the normal caution of a scientist, which I am.
Further, and why I'm not sure about all this, our resident Brulosopher did a dry vs. rehydrated exbeeriment in which detectable differences did not result; that said, it was a lager not an ale, Danstar yeast not Fermentis, and it's only one trial (see? as a scientist, I'm always looking for reasons why a conclusion may be incorrect; that's either an admirable trait or a character flaw, you decide
).I'm going to have to test this myself at some point; I'd rather do a side-by-side comparison with the same wort, but I'm unsure if I can pull that off given my equipment. I have two fermentors, thought about doing two batches, splitting each into the fermentors so the wort would be the same in each and then sprinkle dry or rehydrated yeast into each. I wish I had a boil kettle and mash tun big enough for a 10-gallon batch.
If rehydrated yeast gives me a better shot at better-tasting beer, it's worth a trial.
GrogNerd
mean old man
Jamil Zainasheff, the other author of Yeast, is always saying, "yeah, you can make beer by doing {whatever}, but to make the best beer possible..."
I've always said there are very few "you should"s or "you shouldn't"s in this hobby
but it is full of "best practices" and I think re-hydrating is one, not a "you should"
I've always said there are very few "you should"s or "you shouldn't"s in this hobby
but it is full of "best practices" and I think re-hydrating is one, not a "you should"
madscientist451
Well-Known Member
Seems like a good experiment would be splitting a batch 3 ways and sprinkling So4 in dry, Re-hydrating So4, and using a (similar) liquid yeast in a starter.
I'm thinking the fermentation rates would be different, but would anyone be able to tell the difference by tasting?
I usually use liquid yeast but also have used dry yeast both added dry and re-hydrated but never did any serious tests.
hoppyhoppyhippo
Well-Known Member
My 2 cents. I've always rehydrated my yeast for the same reason I've always activated yeast when making pizza, better to be safe than sorry. I'm not a scientist so I don't really understand, but I know yeast are alive and if you can make sure they're still alive before using them and get them ready to go, things will be better.
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