Might give up on homebrew :(

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DreBourbon

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I've been brewing for about 1 year now and started off with extract kits and found they had a "funny" taste to them. Brewed about 20 of those before switching to all grains. I found I had better results with all grain but again not quite as good as my local brew pub or a commercial beer. I know I can't master the art of brewing in 1 year but I'm starting to think I'm either doing something wrong or maybe I have a "picky" pallet. Not sure. Any suggestions ?
 
If you provide us with a little bit of detail on your process and how you ferment we can help point you in the direction of better beer.
 
Well, maybe it's oxidation, but without knowing the process from fermenter to bottle or keg, who knows?

The two things that have made the biggest difference for me is water (I switched to RO using a few amendments to get it to where I want it to be), and controlling mash temps.

I've never had much issue w/ fermentation temps as I put the fermenter in the basement where ambient is 64 degrees, and during fermentation it rises to maybe 68 degrees or so.
 
I've been brewing for about 1 year now and started off with extract kits and found they had a "funny" taste to them. Brewed about 20 of those before switching to all grains. I found I had better results with all grain but again not quite as good as my local brew pub or a commercial beer. I know I can't master the art of brewing in 1 year but I'm starting to think I'm either doing something wrong or maybe I have a "picky" pallet. Not sure. Any suggestions ?

I support your quitting initiative. Either that, or read some stuff.
 
I support your quitting initiative. Either that, or read some stuff.

Not really a "supportive" response but there is some truth in it. I think the question is a matter of the OP's determination to brew outstanding beer. I've only been at it a year too. I'm not going to compare my brew to Rochefort, Westvletern, or St. Bernardus... I think a person of average abilities can train himself to be an excellent homebrewed. As for me, I'm going to take equipment and ingredients I can afford, the time I have available, and give the brewing process the attention and patience it deserves. What I end up with in my kegs or bottles at the end of that process will be as good as I was at the moment I was involved in the process. When I drink it or serve it to friends I will not apologize that it's not as good as the stuff I can get elsewhere. I will focus on what I like about it and think about how I could improve it. But not everyone who loves beer needs to brew. If I didn't enjoy the process I wouldn't do it.
 
I enjoy the process and I have spent a lot of time and money on this hobby but end of the day if I'm not fully satisfied with my end product it's a bit of a waste of time. I've been using my tap water and sometimes campden tablets. I think I'll try bottled water for my next batch to see if that makes a difference.
 
And BTW if you wanna be rude and tell me to quit and or read more stuff @normonster, just don't reply. I'm asking for help not a wise ass remark. I'm sure you started off with little experience aswell.
 
I support your quitting initiative. Either that, or read some stuff.

That's old school EAC style:rockin:

I enjoy the process and I have spent a lot of time and money on this hobby but end of the day if I'm not fully satisfied with my end product it's a bit of a waste of time. I've been using my tap water and sometimes campden tablets. I think I'll try bottled water for my next batch to see if that makes a difference.

So, how about giving us some info on how you're brewing and do you have any info on your local water?
 
Been brewing for 20 months. Brewed about 20 extracts and 10 all-grain. I've brewed a couple really good beers and I'm getting more and more consistent as I've been learning. If I had to summarize what I've learned about brewing better beer, it would be:

1) Brewing is more cleaning and sanitizing than actually brewing. I am a cleaning/sanitizing maniac and I still picked up a subtle tartness in back to back batches. So I replaced all my plastic gear and my beers have been much better.

2) Pitch enough yeast. I underpitched too many batches before I learned this lesson. One smack pack or vial of liquid yeast may not be enough depending on starting gravity. I also prefer to rehydrate my dried yeast, but that's a holy war topic.

3) Temperature control of fermentation is the best costly investment you can make to improve your beers. I love german lagers so this equipment also allowed me to start making lagers.

4) Oxidation has already been mentioned. I've totally experienced this and I'm still learning how to handle this. Transfers between fermenter and keg need to be gentle. Need to blow out the headspace after kegging with CO2. I don't have a beer gun or counter pressure filler. I fill with picnic taps and bottling wands, flowing over and capping while the headspace in the bottle is foaming over. Now that I've experienced good/fresh beer I'm struggling with differentiating oxidation from the deterioration of flavor over time (hop flavors). Trying to better understand how long a pale ale/ipa will last in a home brew keg and how long a bottle off a keg will hold good flavor. For me this is part of the fun of learning about homebrewing.

5) Advanced Techniques - If you aren't willing to fail, keep it simple. Don't try a decoction mash, first wort hopped, dark grain only sparged, hop stand, dry hopped adjuncted black IPA for your first brew. Brew a pale ale. When I left extract brewing, my beers got better as I started working on building my own water profiles/PH, but I would save that level of complexity for an opportunity for improvement.

Anyone that is new or struggling and looking to improve, I would start by reviewing the above aspects of your brewing process. I strongly recommend brewing recipes from the book "Brewing Classic Styles: 80 Winning Recipes Anyone Can Brew". Those recipes are proven. Work on your process until you can brew a few batches from that book where they taste good, then set out on being creative.

Good luck!
 
DreBourbon, not to be rude, but the only information you have given is "had a funny taste". Please give us your brew day process, like others have asked, and you will get some help.

A guess at this point could be, sanitary conditions, wrong temps, water issues, etc... Not much help guessing!
 
And BTW if you wanna be rude and tell me to quit and or read more stuff @normonster, just don't reply. I'm asking for help not a wise ass remark. I'm sure you started off with little experience aswell.

Not to fan flames here, but you really have not said anything about your process so that helpful suggestions can be given. It came across more of a general complaint, and I thought his response was basically in the same category.

That said, there is a 100% chance that if you posed your process, from start to finish, many of the fine people (and also some of the not so fine like myself) will help you and your beer will be better. Will it be up to your standard? No one knows, that's your call. Will the time commitment be worth it to you for the end product? Again, that's your decision. But most people on here do this for the process and result.

Many new brewers on here have gandeurs of making the best beer ever tasted and becoming a professional brewer, when the reality is that many beers fall short of that mark. But excellent beer can be made, and at least for me, the best part is that I can make beer more suited to my preferences.

Post your process. Let us help.
 
Without details it is difficult to offer good advice, but I too moved from extract to all grain and had a few issues along the way...but it is doable.

"but again not quite as good as my local brew pub or a commercial beer"

I think that's the focal point. So..what are you trying to make that is as good? If you're trying to identically replicate a commercial beer or some hop bomb of an IPA I can see the challenge. If its "I want to brew a beer that is as good or better than a commercial beer me and my friends enjoy" I'd say don't give up.

Make the least amount of work for yourself in an effort to see what makes a difference.

Keys:
Water - sure you can build a water profile out of distilled or RO water, but where I live we have good water. I just use a campden tablet to remove the chloramines. PH might be a consideration..but if you have a local brew house or support group they can tell you if your water supply needs tweaking (assuming its city) without you needing to educate your self on all things water/PH

Ferm temp - this matters a lot. You can get off flavors

Yeast - make sure you pitch enough. I'd start with a dry ale yeast that ferments clean and rehydrate it before pitching (like SO-5 or Notty).

I'd pick a simple ale to start. No special ferm temp/duration considerations like a lager, no specialty beers needing special yeasts. Brew something easy and well with a few variables to control. When you nail it, branch out.
:mug:
 
Best advice as was given.

I had lots of issues with my beers as I started. After digging into the science of what I was doing and gradually fixing everything in the process, I started making awesome beers. Just finished a Belgain tripel that was one of the best I ever tasted. Took 18 months to get to this point. Keep at it and start weeding through your processes to find the faults!
 
On the water issue, I have taken to buying RO water from the store and using the excellent Brunwater spreadsheet to calculate necessary additions of minerals and acid. I am sure my beers have tasted better since doing so.
 
I wouldn't give up. I'd find the issue and correct it. Best thing I did was get a stainless fermenter. Then a fermentation chamber. Then a lager fridge. All the while filtering my tap water and using gelatin to clean the beer.
 
@DreBourbon, I'd still like to know more about your process, and the flaws you're perceiving in your beers. Can you describe the flavour you don't like in your own beers? Is it like a stale, cardboard flavour? A harsh, hot, alcohol flavour, like nail polish remover? Banana? Green apple? Sour? Sweet? Malty? Be as specific as you can. A quick description of your process would help us help you, too. Walk us through a brew day.
 
So for extract kits my process is fairly easy, clean then sanitize a carboy while my extract can is in hot water, dump the extract can into the carboy, add my fermentable (usually lme or sometimes dextrose ) then my water top up, rehidrate yeast and make sure pitching temp is correct as per yeast package and done. I will then wait a week before transferring to a secondary and then let it sit for about 1 month before kegging. My last few batches had a sour taste that seams to fade after time but should I really need to wait a few months before I can enjoy?
 
As for all grain I usually buy a kit and follow their instructions to a T. I've had better beers with all grain but no significant difference in taste. Might be my water. We have very hard water here In Ottawa Ontario Canada.
 
Holy crap, you're in Ottawa? Screw "describing" your beer, bring me a bottle, I'm in Barrhaven and I'll be brewing in my garage tomorrow. :) I'm a BJCP judge, I'll tell you exactly what's wrong with your beer.

Ottawa water isn't actually very hard at all, it's great for brewing. That said, they do use chloramines, so you'll get better results if you dose your brewing liquor with Campden tablets (1 tablet per 20 gallons).

Your extract process sounds fine, although I dislike extract beers anyway, as I can always perceive that distinctive, sweet, controversial extract "twang." But you've moved on to all grain anyway, so let's focus on that.

A "sour" flavour suggests an infection, so let's first focus on your cleaning and sanitizing regimen. Also, another controversial topic is whether or not to bother racking your beer to secondary. I'm of the opinion that it can be useful in very specific cases, but as a standard practice, is unnecessary, and exposes the beer to risks like infection and oxidation. If you are indeed getting infections in your beer, you could very well be picking them up in secondary. I would try brewing an all-grain batch and skipping the secondary step - just go straight from the primary (after letting it ferment for 3 weeks) to the keg.

Are you purging the kegs with CO2 after racking the beer to them? Ottawa also has an extremely active home brewing community, there are lots of people around town who would be more than willing to help you out.
 
So for extract kits my process is fairly easy, clean then sanitize a carboy while my extract can is in hot water, dump the extract can into the carboy, add my fermentable (usually lme or sometimes dextrose ) then my water top up, rehidrate yeast and make sure pitching temp is correct as per yeast package and done. I will then wait a week before transferring to a secondary and then let it sit for about 1 month before kegging. My last few batches had a sour taste that seams to fade after time but should I really need to wait a few months before I can enjoy?

Maybe it's been too long since I did an extract but don't you still have to boil the extract and LME before putting it into the fermenter?
 
Holy crap, you're in Ottawa? Screw "describing" your beer, bring me a bottle, I'm in Barrhaven and I'll be brewing in my garage tomorrow. :) I'm a BJCP judge, I'll tell you exactly what's wrong with your beer.

Ottawa water isn't actually very hard at all, it's great for brewing. That said, they do use chloramines, so you'll get better results if you dose your brewing liquor with Campden tablets (1 tablet per 20 gallons).

Your extract process sounds fine, although I dislike extract beers anyway, as I can always perceive that distinctive, sweet, controversial extract "twang." But you've moved on to all grain anyway, so let's focus on that.

A "sour" flavour suggests an infection, so let's first focus on your cleaning and sanitizing regimen. Also, another controversial topic is whether or not to bother racking your beer to secondary. I'm of the opinion that it can be useful in very specific cases, but as a standard practice, is unnecessary, and exposes the beer to risks like infection and oxidation. If you are indeed getting infections in your beer, you could very well be picking them up in secondary. I would try brewing an all-grain batch and skipping the secondary step - just go straight from the primary (after letting it ferment for 3 weeks) to the keg.

Are you purging the kegs with CO2 after racking the beer to them? Ottawa also has an extremely active home brewing community, there are lots of people around town who would be more than willing to help you out.

Yeah, extracts all taste the same. Ok. I'll stick to primary and let it sit for 3 weeks before kegging. I think I'm exposing my batch too much. You say Ottawa water is ok? Cool, I'll stick with it then and definitely a "twang" taste In extract.
 
@kombat Yeah, extracts all taste the same. Ok. I'll stick to primary and let it sit for 3 weeks before kegging. I think I'm exposing my batch too much. You say Ottawa water is ok? Cool, I'll stick with it then and definitely a "twang" taste In extract. Yes kegs are being purged. I usually do extracts do to time restraints but all grain is the way to go. I built myself an electric brew kettle. It's pretty sweet.
 
I think it really depends on why you homebrew. If you do it just to eventually save $$ on beer (after you've paid off equipment) then you're probably not going to feel the desire to continue when your beer isn't quite as good as what you can buy after a few batches. I have yet to brew a batch that's as good as I can buy from the store in 1.5 yrs (I haven't brewed frequently) but I love it more now than I did when I started, and I think its because I love the art of the process, the HB community, and the DIY aspect.

I bet if you ask the great brewmasters they would tell you that their beers were nowhere near what they wanted after just a year.
 
So for extract kits my process is fairly easy, clean then sanitize a carboy while my extract can is in hot water, dump the extract can into the carboy, add my fermentable (usually lme or sometimes dextrose ) then my water top up, rehidrate yeast and make sure pitching temp is correct as per yeast package and done. I will then wait a week before transferring to a secondary and then let it sit for about 1 month before kegging. My last few batches had a sour taste that seams to fade after time but should I really need to wait a few months before I can enjoy?

I only made 3 extract brews before switching to all-grain, but do I have this right? You're not doing a boil, you're just pouring extract and some water into your carboy?

Do you use hops at all? The boiling of wort allows the hop additions to convert the alpha acids to bittering compounds. If you're not boiling, then at best you're getting dry hopping and no bittering.

Where did you read instructions that indicate that this is the way to brew extract beers? My first extract brew was from Northern Brewer, and their instructions were very clear--steep grains in hot water, raise the temp to boiling, add extract, boil for 60 minutes adding first hop addition at the start, then another at 30 minutes.

http://www.northernbrewer.com/documentation/beerkits/IrishRedAle.pdf

I think there's all sorts of possibility of infection to say nothing of no bittering going on here. Do you sanitize the can of extract before opening it and adding to your carboy? Is the can opener sterile? Is your water sterile? How about how you do the yeast? I suspect somewhere herein lies the problem.

[And w/r/t all-grain, are you boiling the collected wort after mashing?]

Let me suggest getting an extract kit from someplace like NB and then following the directions to a "T." There's no way I'd brew beer like you're doing it, my friend. And please understand: this is written with the goal of helping you get to that great beer you know is within you!
 
I only made 3 extract brews before switching to all-grain, but do I have this right? You're not doing a boil, you're just pouring extract and some water into your carboy?

Do you use hops at all? The boiling of wort allows the hop additions to convert the alpha acids to bittering compounds. If you're not boiling, then at best you're getting dry hopping and no bittering.

Where did you read instructions that indicate that this is the way to brew extract beers? My first extract brew was from Northern Brewer, and their instructions were very clear--steep grains in hot water, raise the temp to boiling, add extract, boil for 60 minutes adding first hop addition at the start, then another at 30 minutes.

http://www.northernbrewer.com/documentation/beerkits/IrishRedAle.pdf

I think there's all sorts of possibility of infection to say nothing of no bittering going on here. Do you sanitize the can of extract before opening it and adding to your carboy? Is your water sterile? How about how you do the yeast? I suspect therein lies the problem.

[And w/r/t all-grain, are you boiling the collected wort after mashing?]

Let me suggest getting an extract kit from someplace like NB and then following the directions to a "T." There's no way I'd brew beer like you're doing it, my friend. And please understand: this is written with the goal of helping you get to that great beer you know is within you!

Maybe his extract is already hopped?

I don't know, but this sounds like an outdated way to make extract beer.
 
Maybe his extract is already hopped?

I don't know, but this sounds like an outdated way to make extract beer.

Perhaps it's already hopped, but wouldn't you still need to boil it to bring out the bittering?

I've understood boiling in part to sterilize all the elements of the wort, in addition to bringing out the bittering.
 
Sounds like really inexpensive beginner type Pre-Hopped extract kits. A quality extract kit with steeping grains and hops might make a big difference.

I would not go back to the tap water based solely on "Ottawa water is good" Try some other water and see if it makes a difference.
Without further details, I would look at fermentation temperatures this is often not covered well in kit instructions, making sure you are pitching the proper amount of health yeast cells, and research "oxidation" to see if you can spot anywhere in your processes this might be introduced.
 
The pre-hopped LME kits do not need to be boiled. They're sold in cans shaped like juice cans, and don't have any additional hops or anything to be added. They just need to be dissolved in (warm) water, then topped up with plain water, and the yeast pitched. They're very simple, and the flavour of the resulting beer reflects it.
 
I enjoy the process and I have spent a lot of time and money on this hobby but end of the day if I'm not fully satisfied with my end product it's a bit of a waste of time. I've been using my tap water and sometimes campden tablets. I think I'll try bottled water for my next batch to see if that makes a difference.

If you can, I would try RO water. Costs $.35 per gallon where I am at. That way your water is clean so you can eliminate water as the problem. I made the switch and noticed a lot of improvement. The biggest things that have helped me:

1) RO water
2) Mash pH
3) Controlling fermentation temp
4) Yeast Starter
5) Grain Mill (more consistent efficiency)

This hobby is a learning process and can require an investment of time and money. I share your frustration at times. My beer might not be perfect all the time, but I enjoy it. I have found that I am much harder on myself than I should be. I would recommend reviewing your process in these areas for improvement, and keep recipes simple until you are satisfied with the process.
 
I feel like this thread is become more of a "choose your own adventure" story than a "help me improve my beer" request. So far the following errors have been suggested:

Oxidation
Water quality
Fermentation temperatures out of range
Yeast pitch rate
Sanitation practices
Quality of ingredients

I can say with certainty that if you resolve any issues with all of the above, you will have a very good beer. :rolleyes:

My suggestion at this point would be to start at zero and either take a beer class, read a book such as John Palmer's How to Brew, or take @kombat up on his offer (which is no small offer, BTW) and see what he says and learn his process. Absent that, I would recommend doing a few one gallon all-grain kits (like the ones sold from one of the fine sponsors of this site) and learn the process. Then apply those processes and good practice to your larger batches. I think that the issue you are having now is mostly due to the (a) process and (b) fermentation temperatures. Both of those will give you the issues you are describing.

Past this, you will need to provide more detailed information so that further help can be provided.
 
It could be aliens or temp control as well. Do you use temp control or just let put you FV in a closet or something somewhere?
 
Is it the same off flavor be it extract or AG? It could be water.

Cleaner or sanitizer could also be a cause. I was a fan of iodine and rinsing, and it didn't give me off flavors. I switched to Starsan because it was on sale one day. I still rinse, because I'm not brewing with Citarum river water, and I don't get off flavors from it, either.
 
The pre-hopped LME kits do not need to be boiled. They're sold in cans shaped like juice cans, and don't have any additional hops or anything to be added. They just need to be dissolved in (warm) water, then topped up with plain water, and the yeast pitched. They're very simple, and the flavour of the resulting beer reflects it.

Agreed.
 
All great advice and yes I do own Palmer 's book. I think I'm aiming for perfection off of the gate. I need to refine my skills.
 
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