Melanoidin Malt vs Decoction - does it really add the same flavors

[Holden Caulfield]

Melanoidin Malt is often recommended as a substitute for decoction mashing and after completing a number of successful decoction mashes I am perplexed by this claim.

My understanding is that Melanoidin Malt shares a lot in common with Munich Malts. In other words, it is kilned/roasted before the starches are converted to sugars, unlike Crystal malts that are essentially mashed in the husk. I tried to confirm this by checking Weyermann's specs on mealy/glassy but could not find any data. American Honey Malt is supposed to be similar and per Breiss, their Honey malt is 95/5 mealy/glassy, so more like Munich rather than Crystal. Given the manufacturing process of Melanoidin malt, one would expect flavors similar to darker Munichs (melanoidin rich) rather than the carmel/toffee flavors in Crystal malts that occur when the sugars in Crystal malts are caramelized.

While performing decoctions, it is recommended to hold/rest the thick mash decoctions at high saccharification temp (158-162) to convert the starches in the thick mash prior to boiling.

Wouldn't boiling a sugar laden thick mash create flavors more akin to Crystal malts rather than Munich malts?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

After having done only one decoction mash in my day, and with that single experience resulting in my best effort to achieve a good Czech Premium Pilsner (which well exceeded a good number of attempts to capture the styles flavor via the use of single infusion and Melanoidin malt) I would have to agree with you that Melanoidin is not a decent substitute for decoction. I'm now thinking along the lines of a blend of Pilsner and Ashburne Mild malt in conjunction with single infusion mashing whereby to mimic decoction. Something like this:

 

[Holden Caulfield]

I'm now thinking along the lines of a blend of Pilsner and Ashburne Mild malt in conjunction with single infusion mashing whereby to mimic decoction. Something like this:

With the addition of the Crystal malt and Ashburn malt, which is probably similar to a light Munich given its color, you appear to be trying to add some light caramel flavors along with some light kilned malt flavors. I agree with this thinking as boiling a sugar laden thick decoction would create both these flavors (I would guess more caramel flavors) unlike mashing a very dark Munich (Melanoidin Malt), which is 95 percent mealy (not converted to sugar), and has a lot of toasted malt flavors (Maillard reactions) and very little caramel flavors.

I think that the usage of Melanoidin as a substitute for decoction is another good example of marketing/myths in homebrewing that gets perpetuated without data backing it up. Honey, Aromatic, Amber, Biscuit, etc malts are all produced similarly and produce strong Munich malt flavors and yet I have never read nor been recommended to use one of these as a substitute for decoction.

Pilsner Urquell is one of my favorite beers and I have yet to be able to clone it. The last batch I made was very close as I followed the hopping schedule in this great article published by Morebeer:
https://www.morebeer.com/articles/Pilsner_Urquell
I double decocted thick mashes with 15 minute saccharification rests then boiled for 15 mins. The recipe was 96% Bohemian pilsner malt and 4% Carafoam. It is fantastic but came out lighter and lacked the caramel/malty backbone of Pilsner Urquell.

I know the article says Pilsner Urquell boils their decoctions briefly but this could be 5 mins or much longer. Also, the level of boil intensity is not mentioned. Perhaps they pull almost no thin mash and allow the kettle to get very hot so a high level of dark caramelization occurs quickly. I have been unable to find any info on their boil times and intensity. If anyone know the answer to their decoction boil schedule/process, please chime in.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

With Pilsner Urquell (to me) it's all about the combination of maltiness, mouthfeel, and smooth yet bold 40 IBU bitterness. I must admit that I really enjoy a good Dortmunder Export as well. Twice recently I've drank Urquell and Great Lakes Dortmunder Gold side by side, and both times the Urquell came out on top as judged by my taste buds.

 

[Bohern]

Been thinking about this myself, I love lagers but have never done a decoction mash.

 

[BigEd]

Melanoidin Malt is often recommended as a substitute for decoction mashing and after completing a number of successful decoction mashes I am perplexed by this claim.

Bear in mind that these recommendations are often done by brewers who do not do and think you should not do a decoction

My understanding is that Melanoidin Malt shares a lot in common with Munich Malts.

While there may be other nuances in the production process from a superficial standpoint melanoidin is a more highly kilned Munich malt.

While performing decoctions, it is recommended to hold/rest the thick mash decoctions at high saccharification temp (158-162) to convert the starches in the thick mash prior to boiling.

Wouldn't boiling a sugar laden thick mash create flavors more akin to Crystal malts rather than Munich malts?

A rest at that temperature range may be included in a decoction mash program but it would certainly not be the only temp rest used. The mashing is going to spend more time at lower temperatures. Also only a portion of the mash is subjected to boiling at any one time. The answer to your question, at least from my experience, is no. The flavor and aroma characteristics produced by a decoction mash are not the same as what crystal/caramel malts provide.