MD/DC grain

Yakima 728
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sweetcell said:
it's not the shipping that appears to be the problem, it's the selling (or more specifically the pricing). they don't want to see direct to us... for whatever reason. so my unfounded guess is that they don't want you picking up either.
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If they have a published "homebrewer" catalog pricing then I can see no reason why you couldn't pick it up at those prices from their distribution center...unless they don't accept in person customers, only sales via shipping (which seems ridiculous to me).
 
I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I have to drive 1.5 hours to get to the homebrew shop. They aren't exactly friendly, either. It might be worth incorporating and getting a tax ID, I have a 3/4 ton truck and could make deliveries as a side business. It's time I talk to the county zoning commission. I could care less for price fixing, which is what this news amounts to. I've been saying for a while that no one on the east coast matches Austin Homebrew, Northern Brewer or Midwest on shipping or delivery time. I have 15 acres and storage to spare. I'd have to make a markup on ordering/delivering, but not 30%.
 
Does anyone have any idea what the new shipping might be? I am ASSUMING $7 per bag for comparison purposes, but given the recent sudden changes in prices, I'm not sure that is a valid assumption anymore.
 
Jayhem said:
If they have a published "homebrewer" catalog pricing then I can see no reason why you couldn't pick it up at those prices from their distribution center...unless they don't accept in person customers, only sales via shipping (which seems ridiculous to me).
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sorry, my bad, i misunderstood what you meant. i thought you wanted to get the old wholesale pricing.

picking up at their location seems quite plausible. if you find out, please let us know.
 
The shipping they will use for homebrewers is FEDEX Ground, which I'm sure is higher than the freight rate Stefin was getting.

Even though the shops will benefit, I wouldn't blame them without proof. NCM may have just realized how much money they were leaving on the table by selling at wholesale to groups of HBer's vs. what we would have to pay at 50poundsack.com or local shops.
 
robfar said:
Even though the shops will benefit, I wouldn't blame them without proof. NCM may have just realized how much money they were leaving on the table by selling at wholesale to groups of HBer's vs. what we would have to pay at 50poundsack.com or local shops.
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another equally plausible possibility: we were paying $40 though them, but the alternative was $60 at the LHBS - so NCM saw an opportunity to capture part of that difference and jacked up their prices to $50.

now the question is, will the increase in profit per bag be offset by the loss of volume now that people won't be buying as much/as often...
 
sweetcell said:
another equally plausible possibility: we were paying $40 though them, but the alternative was $60 at the LHBS - so NCM saw an opportunity to capture part of that difference and jacked up their prices to $50.
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At that price difference it isn't advantageous for me to drive 6 hours, round trip. I'll buy from the not-so-local HBS or have grain shipped and pay astronomical shipping costs.
 
Good call Robfar, maybe next time I should read the top of the doc before getting all excited and scrolling down to see the prices...

So, for anyone who is interested I played around with a few shipping options just to get a feel for what the new shipping prices would be like (I am also a total excel nerd and all about calculating price per lb, so I couldn't help myself).

Plugging in shipping rates for a 55lbs package on fedex.com from Hickory, NC (the closest distribution site according to googlemaps) to Takoma Park is $27.

For comparison purposes I hopped on northern brewer and a 55lbs sack of marris otter would cost $23.84 in shipping via UPS ground and on midwestsupplies 25.19 via fedex ground. So, bottom line, it looks to me like if you are looking at bulk orders from CMG, you can add AT LEAST $20 to your order in shipping charges, which significantly changes the price per lbs from $7 a sack.

Austin Homebrew has MO for 69.99 a sack, but that is a 40 Lbs sack, and I also don't know if the flat rate shipping applies to bulk grains
 
If shipping does increase to 20 dollars a bag then this would make it a definite bust.

there cheapest grain is 40 dollars a bag plus 20 dollars for shipping brings it to 60 dollars. Fifty pound sack sells the same type of grain for 68 with shipping.

8 dollars will not cover the cost of gas plus the need to drive to a pickup point. Not mention the work claphamsa has to do to organize all this.
 
sweetcell said:
another equally plausible possibility: we were paying $40 though them, but the alternative was $60 at the LHBS - so NCM saw an opportunity to capture part of that difference and jacked up their prices to $50.

now the question is, will the increase in profit per bag be offset by the loss of volume now that people won't be buying as much/as often...
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Indeed it looks NCM wants to capture some of the retail profit, without offering retail service. Although we're not sure if truck delivery is totally out of the question, by shifting shipping methods to Fedex (ugh!) the deal gets even less attractive. AFAIK, Fedex does not ship/deliver palleted goods, unless something changed recently.

NCM was selling us at the "2000# wholesale" rate for a private (non-business) account holder.
We don't know, what rate they're selling to LHBS for, and can be much lower than our rate, since they are retail outfits that make profit through markups. Those are called trade discounts, and usually based on volume.
Nobody in those supply chains is losing money with this change, except us, the ultimate consumer.

Does anyone know how LHBSs buy their products? They may get supplies through a distributor (network), and not even deal directly with NCM.

The co-op idea still has merit, but we need to know some more details, like shipping rates for pallet-sized orders, which could be the ultimate deal breaker if they cannot be kept within reason. Don't forget, NCM would not be paying retail shipping for Fedex either. They have negotiable leverage to receive industrial shipping rates.
 
IslandLizard said:
NCM was selling us at the "2000# wholesale" rate for a private (non-business) account holder.
We don't know, what rate they're selling to LHBS for, and can be much lower than our rate, since they are retail outfits that make profit through markups. Those are called trade discounts, and usually based on volume.
Nobody in those supply chains is losing money with this change, except us, the ultimate consumer.

Does anyone know how LHBSs buy their products? They may get supplies through a distributor (network), and not even deal directly with NCM.
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We were paying the wholesale prices, there was no distinction in pricing until today when they instituted homebrewer rates.

There are volume discounts when ordering multiple pallets, but we had the wholesale price list and they were the exact same prices that breweries and homebrew shops paid/pay for bagged malt in bulk. And they do deal directly with NCM.
 
****ing pissed! Im willing to host a coop... but, sounds like a lot of work. cant imagine paying retail for grain.

in the end, even the higher prices are worth it for me.

I will support anything anyone can do but in the end...these ****ers suck.

some people asked why this happened, its not a shock. they got bought out a year ago, and tightened. they have long treated customers like ****. its national, not just local homebrew stores.
 
dcHokie said:
We were paying the wholesale prices, there was no distinction in pricing until today when they instituted homebrewer rates.

There are volume discounts when ordering multiple pallets, but we had the wholesale price list and they were the exact same prices that breweries and homebrew shops paid/pay for bagged malt in bulk. And they do deal directly with NCM.
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Well, often there is wholesale and then there's wholesale. In many industries there are additional "trade discounts" on listed prices. Again, usually based on volume, or clever negotiations. There are also perks, like free shipping when ordering above $xx,xxx, etc. Not that we would ever qualify for any of them.

I see the discounts for larger orders/multiple pallets, yes. We're talking pennies a pound there.

Looks like we're going to be paying retail pricing one way or another, unless we distinguish ourselves from "Home Brewers."
 
IslandLizard said:
That's the spirit! Too bad we can't pass the extra cost on to someone else, or tap smaller beers.
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I wanna ask the ******* EEOC lawyer if i have a case.... but im sure i dont :) (dont ask)

think ill start a new thread, if we can COOP great, if not... still worth it (for me)
 
Stefin hang in there bud! I have some shipping contacts that we might be able to use. What if, instead of 42 or 84 bags, we go large less often? I am thinking 200 bags plus? I will ask my shipper how much to deliver and we can dangle a large shipment in front of them to see if they bite. I am willing to buy a years worth of grain or close to it in order to get our discount back! There has got to be a way to get those jerk**** to allow us back in the game. If not, we need to work other angles like nano's or the like. I am sure we can find a way. Keep the faith!
 
Getting a tin does not cost anything. If you make zero profit you fill out a schedule c and add it to your 1040. It comes out to 0 so nothing changes.
 
Random thought - Are there any local breweries that we could work with for bulk grain purchase? Obviously it would have to be worth their time and effort, but I can see it working. Brewers Alley and Monocacy Brewing I would rule out cause they have an agreement with Flying barrel already I'm pretty sure. Maybe someplace further south or in DC would be willing to accommodate us. It would have to be a small operation too. I don't think place like Flying Dog would want to be bothered with it.
 
I'm afraid that with the increase pricing I'm not going to be able to swing this right now. Baby on the way and a new house are proving a real money sink and extras sadly don't fit in right now.

WRT bulk grain, the Red Brick Station brewpub will sell grain at cost price to AHA members. I've not called them and enquired just yet but it might be a good option for those close enough.
 
mtbiker278 said:
Random thought - Are there any local breweries that we could work with for bulk grain purchase? Obviously it would have to be worth their time and effort, but I can see it working. Brewers Alley and Monocacy Brewing I would rule out cause they have an agreement with Flying barrel already I'm pretty sure. Maybe someplace further south or in DC would be willing to accommodate us. It would have to be a small operation too. I don't think place like Flying Dog would want to be bothered with it.
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In Frederick there is a farm house brewery just opening up called Freys Brewing Company. There is also another nano called Mad Science Brewery.

Finally there is a nano in the Rockville area called Baying Hound Aleworks.

Maybe talk with them about it.
 
Funny that they have a full-page advertisement in the latest Zymurgy. Perhaps they plan on having a retail front for homebrewers again, and aren't interested in competing with themselves...

Glad I got to participate in the last group buy, thanks again for the hard work Stefin. I'll surf on those grains for the year and see how the grist settles.

Definitely interested in co-op, but I don't see a point to supporting CMG should we have a formal tax system.
 
I just bought a tractor with forks, I can unload pallets and I have storage. I live in one of the most depressed counties in Virginia, they're happy to have any industry or business. My question is, if I had big deliveries here would anyone be willing to make the trek from DC to Cumberland Virginia and back with grain? It's a 3 hour round trip. I've already spoken to the county about opening a farm brewery, and they're on board with calling it a home based business. I wonder if TTB will be okay with it. I'm going to have to talk to some local(ish) breweries to see if I can order bulk grain through them. The HBS shops in Richmond and Charlottesville charge as much as CMG now. The last option is to find a different supplier, I'll be doing some research.
 
Hey just a thought here. Someone mentioned that NCM was bought recently. I wonder if the BIG boys have any interests here. All of us home brewers, many aspiring to open a micro brewery some day. Could be just the thing they need to hang on to their 94% market share.
 
Dschuetz said:
Hey just a thought here. Someone mentioned that NCM was bought recently. I wonder if the BIG boys have any interests here. All of us home brewers, many aspiring to open a micro brewery some day. Could be just the thing they need to hang on to their 94% market share.
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Country Malt Group bought BrewCraft in 2010, essentially acquiring an existing distribution channel for homebrewers.
 
I reached out to Apex Brew Wares (a homebrew shop outside of Kansas City in Missouri). I bought a few things from them on-line and follow them on Facebook. Jeremy has posted many times about doing a group by for his local market, so I followed up with him to see what he does in terms of mark-up, etc.
He responded saying he essentially does a small mark-up to cover freight and his time, while keeping the prices lower than anyone else can provide. He sees it as a win, win. He offers his customers a great deal, so they shop more often at their store and his customers obviously get grain at a cheap price.
He also noted that most shops seem to want to suck every single cent possible out of their customers.

Man...I wish we had a brewshop in our area that provided such a customer friendly service. I'd actually shop at myLHBS if they provided that service (and were helpful...and nice).
 
yo atjsparty, Derek at Jay's in Manassas is a gem. He is not out to suck every cent out of us, he is really nice and fair. Couple weeks ago I left a couple lbs of grains on the counter and he mailed them at his expense. In fact, one of the bags I had not even paid for and he did not charge me. He also has a great (10%) frequent shopper program. It may be a bit further than Falls Church, but then again you could stop off and have a brew with me or any of the other NOVA homebrewers in the Woodbridge area.

Sheldon
 
atjsparty said:
Man...I wish we had a brewshop in our area that provided such a customer friendly service. I'd actually shop at myLHBS if they provided that service (and were helpful...and nice).
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Agreed. My not so local HBS charges over $2/lb for even base grain. I can order grain from many online stores and have it delivered for significantly cheaper and save a 1.5 hour round trip drive!
 
So I just got done talking to my contact at the shipping company. If we were able to put together an 8 pallet order, shipping would end up being about what we pay now (~$6.50 a sack). We could potentially get it lower than that if we didn't need a truck with a lift gate. From what I have seen with our group, getting 2-3 pallets together is a breeze. I know I would order more if we did the buys less often, but with it being done ~ once a month, I have limited myself to 1-2 bags. If we did this quarterly, then I could see buying 2-3 bags. I think the numbers all add up. Now all we have to do is a get a tax id and have them sell to us again. I can ask the guy in Rockville if he wants to help us out or not as he is right down the street from me. Anyone in Frederick want to ask the local breweries there? DC nanos? There has got to be a way we can get back to better prices for base grains...

The coop idea is a good one, but I am pretty sure it will mean we will need a lawyer and have to pay some money up front. Anyone interested in reading up about this, I found this site: http://www.cgin.coop/how_to_start that may help. I skimmed it a bit yesterday but have not had time to dig deep yet.
 
stonebrewer - you rock. thanks for looking into shipping.

question: if we get the TIN/coop/etc set up and CMG agrees to sell to us again, will CMG be willing to ship just like the old days? do we need a new shipper? because i think their old shipping costs were reasonable. sorry if i missed this part...

i'd bet we could scrape together an 8 pallet order if we move to quarterly buys. i'll certainly be getting at least 5 bags on the next order. wall o' homer buckets...
 
Joining late, but this is a real bummer. It seems to me that the only way to really do something like this moving forward is to see if you can work with an existing brewery. Forming a co-op sounds like a really proactive way to keep the group-buy going, but I can't see that really panning out.

I wonder if a place like Lost Rhino would host a group buy if we paid in advance?
 
First off a big thanks to Stefin for organizing and providing this service to the homebrewing community. I appreciate everything you've done to make this happen for us!

Secondly, if CMG is willing to sell to us as a co-op, i'd be willing to donate money towards the legal fees of setting it up.

Stefin- what do you have as far as specialty grains go? Any star san?
 
I was just thinking (probably poorly) that if they were not willing to ship other than UPS or Fedex anymore if there would be another way. I ship a lot of hardware at the job so I asked my contact what it would cost to ship, thinking that we could have it picked up and delivered ourselves if there was a problem. Just looking at this from all angles since we don't know what they are willing to do. You probably have a better handle on this than anyone...Anyhow, my shipper will deliver to your house for about $6.50 a sack so if we need that in our back pocket, we have it.
 
One problem I can see by using a brewery as "our agent" for bulk buys is logistics.

The order would get dropped off at the brewery and now they have to deal with 12 or more dudes picking up their grain. Alternatively, we'll have to move the whole load to somewhere else to redistribute. Or get a drop ship in place.
 
Hey guys - Regarding the change in pricing from NCM:

I wanted to post this up here in effort to have each group buy participant thinking about how they are spending their money. I would like to send a message to NCM for the arbitrary price change. However I can't do it alone, nor do I have the time to coordinate an effort like this. I also can't ask you all to boycott, because I know that many can't meet the price locally.

I have created this thread to post comments if you want to attempt to hash out your thoughts on NCM's business decision.
 

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