Maybe beer brewing is not for me!

[Val-the-Brew-Gal]

If it seems to taste fine going into the bottle then I'd rule out the fermenter as a source of infection. but I'd bleach that anyway. Considering you're beers go flat, it would seem that the problem is somewhere in the bottling process. If it was just an infection I'd think the bottles would stay carbed or increase in carbonation.

The fact that it goes flat points to something being wrong with the seal. Maybe your caps are faulty and you're storing them someplace where bugs are creeping in.

If I were you I'd sanitize everything or bleach everything like a mad person and replace all plastic tubing and then designate beer plastic from wine plastic to avoid cross contamination. Perhaps the culprit is a bug from the wine? Then I'd buy new caps and maybe replace the bell of the capper in case its the problem. Then maybe make a "test" batch. Like a starter that will ferment fast and then you can carbonate a few bottles just to test the seal.

If bugs get into plastic it's next to impossible to get rid of them. If using plastic fermenter or tubing, I'd replace them.

I've used the same caps and capper on batches in between that turned out okay but I will still look for a new bell for my bench capper. I don't use a plastic fermenter, just glass carboys. And like the capper, I have used the same plastic tubing on batches in between that were okay, but I will bleach everything and look at replacing it soon anyway.

From all of the comments I have received...and thank you all a ton for weighing in with your observations and suggestion...here is my plan of action:

1. I will bleach the crud out of all of my equipment.
2. I will pay very close attention to my pitching temperature as I am really thinking that maybe that is where I am going wrong since I will have a bad batch followed by a good batch using all of the same equipment, bottles, caps, etc.
3. I am also thinking that I don't do a good enough job of aerating the wort before I pitch the yeast...maybe that is stressing the yeast and causing issues?
4. I will make sure I am not rushing fermentation and confirm with a gravity reading that it is truly ready to bottle.
5. Finally, I will check and replace the bell on my capper in case I am not getting a good seal.

If all of this still fails to produce consistently good batches, then I will have to figure out what I did to piss off Ninkasi, goddess of beer and brewing. Does anyone have a suggestion of a bribe/sacrifice I can offer to get on her good side? LOL

 

[Val-the-Brew-Gal]

If you're getting sour and vinegar it's not acetaldehyde. Acetaldehyde will be green apple, but not really sour. How do you know that the beer starts carbonating then goes flat? Tipping a bottle over to check will give you some bubbles even if fermentation is not happening. If it is carbonating and going flat, like many above posts have eluded to, you need a new capper, bell or method. Other sources of infection likely in your process are the top-off water and how you treat your priming sugar. Pre-boil top-off water and refrigerate in a sanitizer container and make sure you are boiling your priming sugar prior to introduction into the bottling bucket.

I opened a bottle a couple weeks after bottling and there was some carbonation (though not a lot) and a slight sour taste...2 weeks later, I opened a bottle and the beer had no carbonation and the taste had become more sour.

 

[Val-the-Brew-Gal]

Here's another one I'll toss in. Do you have spigots on your fermenters? I do, & they must be taken apart & cleaned, rinsed & sanitised before re-assembling them to the pail.

No spigots, but thanks

 

[Rootski]

Another quick question. How are you carbonating your beer? Mixing a priming solution? Individual tablets?

 

[Val-the-Brew-Gal]

Yeah, we had a big discussion on the o2 barrier caps a year or two ago. I don't think soaking them is a good idea, since that could activate them. Instead, I dunk them in Starsan right before placing them on the filled bottles. Then crimp the caps & tip upside down once to be sure they're activated. But I think one likely concern is the capper not crimping them down the sides completely.

I follow the exact same procedure....I dunk them in StarSan, them crimp the caps and tip the bottle upside down to make sure it is sealed.

 

[Val-the-Brew-Gal]

Another quick question. How are you carbonating your beer? Mixing a priming solution? Individual tablets?

I have only made extract kits so they come with a package of priming sugar....5 oz. I believe.

 

[unionrdr]

Yeah, I just read the post about the carboys. It was an idea anyway. You can go to home depot or lowe's to get new clear tubing in many sizes for cheap. I just replace them every so often when cleaning with PBW and a long (66") brush doesn't work anymore. That can help too. Even soak the bottling wand after rinsing if it got any crud in it. Soak, rinse & sanitize stoppers as well. Keep initial fermentation temps in the "sweet spot" range listed by the yeast manufacturer. This can usually be had from a PDF listed at the point of sale online. Definitely check the bell on the capper. They're pretty cheap to replace. I keep my airlocks soaked clean in PBW & rinsed/dried before storage as well. Then spray the stem & the grommet/stopper with Starsan before inserting the airlock. Try to think it through & leave no stone unturned!

 

[Hello]

I don't know that aeration is your issue. I may have missed it, but does the beer taste good just before bottling?

 

[Gavin C]

Just a thought but are the bottles screw tops. probably not but that is something easy enough to overlook. Capping screwtops can be done but might predispose to leaks if the capper also has an issue.

If your beers are coming out flat, the bottles are leaking or the yeast was not viable at the time of bottling which would point back to too hot a pitching temperature.

Taste aside, the lack of carbonation is the key piece of evidence

 

[Rootski]

Ok, brewing beer really isn't all that tricky, so there must be a step that's being overlooked. I've only seen infections over-carbonate beer, so I feel like that should almost be ruled out unless someone smarter chimes in.

1. Make your wort - seems like you've got that figured out.

2. Sanitize everything - you say you've done that.

3. Chill to pitching temps - maybe you pitched a little warm, but that would not affect carbonation levels unless you completely killed the yeast. It sounds like that's not the case since you've had intermittent success and have had fermentation.

4. Ferment completely and then a little more. I leave mine in the primary until all activity in the airlock and within the beer itself has ceased for a good week or more, then measure the gravity. If stable for a few days I'll bottle.

5. Mix priming solution and transfer to bottling bucket. Thoroughly mix everything together being careful not to splash.

6. Bottle. Seal properly and store at room temperature for at least a couple of weeks depending on the beer.

Complete lack of carbonation is what I think is your problem here. Why it is not carbonated is the mystery.

 

[Jayhem]

You mentioned you are fermenting according to the extract kit directions?

Most extract kits have you believe that you should bottle the beer as soon as the gravity is stable for 2-3 days. This is incorrect. Sure it may be safe to bottle after only 7-10 days in the fermenter but the yeast still need 7-21 additional days to clean up fermentation by-products and for proteins to settle out.

I only made mediocre beer until I realized how critical yeast pitching and primary fermenting temps are and that you need at least 3 weeks in the primary for most ales if you want them to taste clean and delicious!

Also, most kits instructions say to ferment at 65-75 degrees! DON'T DO THAT!
The beer temp (what you read on the stick on thermometer) should never go over about 68F for ales. That means the ambient temp of the location where you ferment must be in the low 60's because yeast fermentation is an exothermic reaction (it creates heat).

Ferment cooler and don't let the temp rise or fall more than 2F for the first week then ferment a total of for 21 days in the high 60's before even considering bottling before you give up on brewing!

 

[Val-the-Brew-Gal]

I don't know that aeration is your issue. I may have missed it, but does the beer taste good just before bottling?

It tastes "okay" before bottling...not great, maybe a just a hint of tart...but the longer it's in the bottle, the more sour it becomes.

 

[unionrdr]

When I mentioned the bad bell in the capper, my experience was that the caps themselves weren't quite sealed 100%. Just a tiny hair loose. So they leaked Co2 pressure out of the bottles. But, I got oxygenation off flavor & smell. Vinegar or acetaldehyde would be different issues not related to the beer going bad after bottling. So I think the slightly loose caps could be only half the problem complicating something else?

 

[Skiffy]

Yea losing carbonation makes no sense to me. I'm no biologist but I think there has to be a leak in your cap. Less likely to be an infection since you alternate between good and bad brews.

When you hear hoof beats, think horses not zebras

 

[Val-the-Brew-Gal]

Just a thought but are the bottles screw tops. probably not but that is something easy enough to overlook. Capping screwtops can be done but might predispose to leaks if the capper also has an issue.

If your beers are coming out flat, the bottles are leaking or the yeast was not viable at the time of bottling which would point back to too hot a pitching temperature.

Taste aside, the lack of carbonation is the key piece of evidence

The bottles are not screw tops. Yes, I am leaning towards too hot a pitching temperature.

 

[LoneTreeFarms]

as a fellow wine maker switched to beer, my question is with the finish, are you hitting these with k-meta and campden tabs? if so that could be why you aren't getting any carbonation.

 

[blizz81]

Yea losing carbonation makes no sense to me. I'm no biologist but I think there has to be a leak in your cap. Less likely to be an infection since you alternate between good and bad brews.

I guess the only other thing I could think of is perhaps priming sugar wasn't mixed thoroughly and it just so happened that the first bottle opened had some / more in it than the flat bottle(s) afterwards. Though a) 5oz should be more than plenty to be at the "baseline" for getting carb and b) if it's repeatable in the bad batches to where it seems you open multiple bottles and they follow a pattern of getting flat over time, I would continue to think slightly leaky caps (maybe not leaky enough to where they pass the "liquid" test? Seems weird).

 

[unionrdr]

@LTF; Now there's a thought I hadn't considered. Good question! That stuff would kill any remaining yeast cells. Might be good to have separate FV's & tubing for beer. The slightly leaking caps did pass the tip test in jmy case. They started leaking Co2 when the yeasties went to work on the priming solution.

 

[Rootski]

as a fellow wine maker switched to beer, my question is with the finish, are you hitting these with k-meta and campden tabs? if so that could be why you aren't getting any carbonation.

This would be a big problem for beer! If you are doing this then that explains lack of carbonation and high pitching temps could explain some off flavor. I'd be surprised it's as bad as you are saying though. How warm are you pitching?

 

[Val-the-Brew-Gal]

as a fellow wine maker switched to beer, my question is with the finish, are you hitting these with k-meta and campden tabs? if so that could be why you aren't getting any carbonation.

No...I actually started making beer and then branched out to wine, so I know that I need the yeasties alive to create carbonation.

 

[Val-the-Brew-Gal]

This would be a big problem for beer! If you are doing this then that explains lack of carbonation and high pitching temps could explain some off flavor. I'd be surprised it's as bad as you are saying though. How warm are you pitching?

As I noted, I am not using k-meta or anything like that. I started with beer making and know that I need live yeast to create carbonation.

I was thinking that maybe the sourness wasn't as bad as I thought so I had a couple other people taste and they confirmed...it is not good!

I do think that maybe my pitching temps are a problem, at least that is going to be something I really pay attention to on the next batch.

 

[nuber]

Have you done a PH test on your water? If water is especially acidic it can lend to sour/tart/off flavors. You mentioned topping off with spring water but have you done an entire batch with bottled water? You may not have had issues with wine because the acidity is already expected to some degree.

 

[reelmower]

Are you fermenting your beer in the house? What's the temperature reading inside your house on the thermostat where you control house heating and cooling? During primary fermentation, it's probably about 8-10 degrees warmer than your ambient inside the house temperature .. inside the fermenter. Does the yeast you selected for your beer recipe .. work well in those temperature ranges?

Look at the recipes you had success with .. what yeast did you use .. what season of the year was it .. what was the indoor temperatures like in your house? Is there any noticeable relationship .. between what worked .. and what didn't?

I live in South Carolina .. and without a temperature controlled fermentation environment .. I can only brew ales .. during the late fall and winter .. and early spring. I only use US-05 dry yeast for those ales. As soon as the ambient temperatures inside my house gets to over 70 degrees .. I'm pressing my luck .. on making good tasting beer.

I have other methods for temperature control of my fermentation environment. There is all sorts of information for swamp coolers .. fermentation chambers, etc. on this site. I have found that the single most important aspect for me .. for making quality beers (other than sanitation) .. is controlling the fermentation temperature .. and using the correct yeast for that situation.

For me .. the best test for success .. was being able to duplicate a simple ale .. using the same recipe and yeast .. and getting the results I expected. Then I start expanding .. and branching out.

 

[Val-the-Brew-Gal]

Have you done a PH test on your water? If water is especially acidic it can lend to sour/tart/off flavors. You mentioned topping off with spring water but have you done an entire batch with bottled water? You may not have had issues with wine because the acidity is already expected to some degree.

I haven't tested the PH of my water...thanks for the suggestion. I also haven't done an entire batch with spring water but that would certainly be worth the few dollars to see if that helps. However, all of that still doesn't explain why I have had batches that are good and some that are not

 

[Skiffy]

Exactly. No carbonation most likely means leaky caps. You could probably take a bad and flat beer, add a priming tablet, recap, and put it in a gallon ziploc or something. If the ziploc inflates you have a bad seal

 

[Val-the-Brew-Gal]

Are you fermenting your beer in the house? What's the temperature reading inside your house on the thermostat where you control house heating and cooling? During primary fermentation, it's probably about 8-10 degrees warmer than your ambient inside the house temperature .. inside the fermenter. Does the yeast you selected for your beer recipe .. work well in those temperature ranges?

Look at the recipes you had success with .. what yeast did you use .. what season of the year was it .. what was the indoor temperatures like in your house? Is there any noticeable relationship .. between what worked .. and what didn't?

I live in South Carolina .. and without a temperature controlled fermentation environment .. I can only brew ales .. during the late fall and winter .. and early spring. I only use US-05 dry yeast for those ales. As soon as the ambient temperatures inside my house gets to over 70 degrees .. I'm pressing my luck .. on making good tasting beer.

I have other methods for temperature control of my fermentation environment. There is all sorts of information for swamp coolers .. fermentation chambers, etc. on this site. I have found that the single most important aspect for me .. for making quality beers (other than sanitation) .. is controlling the fermentation temperature .. and using the correct yeast for that situation.

For me .. the best test for success .. was being able to duplicate a simple ale .. using the same recipe and yeast .. and getting the results I expected. Then I start expanding .. and branching out.

I am fermenting in the house, but I use a bedroom that is closed up and stays right around 62° in the winter. Two of the batches I had trouble with were started in August when it would have been much warmer, so that would correlate, but the last was started the last part of October when it was much cooler...and in between I made some good batches that would have been in the same temperature environment.

My wheat batches have all turned out so far...the ones that failed were an autumn amber and a couple holiday/winter ales. As for yeasts, I think most of the batches I have made have used US-05.

Thanks for the input!

 

[aprichman]

Are you using the same equipment to ferment beer and wine? Are you using StarSan to sanitize, if so how are you making the StarSan solution?

 

[reelmower]

Your issue sounds like a good learning experience. Maybe you could do some small .. one gallon batches .. until you figure out the answer. You won't waste so much money .. if you make a dud batch. There is a lot of info about one gallon brewing .. and experimenting with all grain with .. brew in a bag .. on this site. Make two six packs .. instead of two cases .. until you get .. "your game back".

 

[Val-the-Brew-Gal]

Are you using the same equipment to ferment beer and wine? Are you using StarSan to sanitize, if so how are you making the StarSan solution?

I do use the same tubing and carboys for both wine and beer. I make the StarSan per label instructions using store purchased reverse osmosis water.

 

[djfriesen]

Are you using the same equipment to ferment beer and wine? Are you using StarSan to sanitize, if so how are you making the StarSan solution?

Sanitation issues seem unlikely, at least from the standpoint of the flatness and variability between good and bad batches on the same equipment (there might be an infection, given the sourness, but that's an altogether different issue). IMO, getting the seals on your bottles figured out would take priority over sanitation, since a bad seal could potentially explain both the flatness and the sourness. Do you have access to another capper? That, or replacing the bell would seem to be the cheapest way to eliminate the most likely variable.

 

[stratslinger]

Dumb question - but back to the carbonation method:

How exactly are you adding the priming sugar to your beer, prior to bottling? There are a few different methods, and maybe seeing how you're doing it may lead to some further discovery.

As to what I'm reading so far - the fact that carbonation either doesn't occur, or fades away, (or possibly is very inconsistent) would seem to indicate an issue with the caps, or possibly an issue with getting the priming evenly mixed into the beer.

You also mentioned now that some of these beers have tasted slightly tart prior to bottling. That could be a couple things - it could be an early sign of infection, if something got to your fermenter along the way. Depending on your yeast, and depending on exactly how long you gave the beer to sit in the fermenter (going by the instructions with your kit, this likely wasn't very long), some yeasts can actually provide a bit of a tart flavor while there's still a sufficient amount in suspension (at least, that's my experience!).

So it's possible that you have a couple things going on - definitely review your priming/capping process, and look at anything that could make the beer either taste tart or actually go sour prior to bottling. Lots of good advice here so far to both of those points.

 

[Brettomomyces]

the ziplock bag idea from earlier is good, or you could try rubber banding a balloon to the neck of some bottles. Balloon inflates, you know there's a leak.

 

[jbb3]

...I do think that maybe my pitching temps are a problem, at least that is going to be something I really pay attention to on the next batch.

Definitely something to pay attention to as you improve the quality and consistency of your beer. You always want to pitch as close to the target fermenting temp as possible.

But unless your pitching temp has been WAY out of whack 80-85 + it would not produce the sour taste to the degree you're describing. Not to mention it wouldn't have anything to do with the lack of carbonation.

Something is either killing the yeast when you transfer to your bottling bucket/bottles (wine finishing chemicals, early infection, ??...) &/or the caps are not sealing.

You mentioned using a pump to rack from the carboy and that pump is also used in wine making. Possible residuals from your wine finishing chemicals??

In addition to the other suggestions posted, you may try picking up a couple of grolsch style/swing top bottles and work those into your next bottling session. See if they happen to carbonate better/differently then your capped bottles.

Good luck with your quest! Please post back your findings...

And it may already have been mentioned; but make sure you're boiling and cooling your priming solution before mixing with your beer.

 

[IslandLizard]

Ever taken apart and cleaned that spigot on your bottling bucket? There are 5 pieces to it. The crucial parts are the 2 main body barrels that rotate within each other.

That said, if it were an infection, you would get gushers most likely, and not flat beer. Bacteria do not kill yeast.

How do you clean and sanitize your bottles? Racking cane? Tubing? Equipment in general?

 

[Val-the-Brew-Gal]

Ever taken apart and cleaned that spigot on your bottling bucket? There are 5 pieces to it. The crucial parts are the 2 main body barrels that rotate within each other.

That said, if it were an infection, you would get gushers most likely, and not flat beer. Bacteria do not kill yeast.

How do you clean and sanitize your bottles? Racking cane? Tubing? Equipment in general?

I don't use a bottling bucket so there is no spigot to deal with. I use my All-in-One pump for bottling but have carefully sanitized the tubing and bottling attachment.

I clean my bottles with an oxy product and sanitize using StarSan and a bottle rinser attached to the top of my drying tree.

 

[speeddemon190]

Try starting with one issue first...solve the carbonation issue. Personally I would replace the bell on the capper, and then purchase new caps. If the bottles you are using are the same ones for every batch, maybe there is a problem with the bottles and should be changed. Once the bottles are carbed and no longer flat, then we can move to the next step if the sour flavor is still present. Thats how I would approach the issue.

 

[jbb3]

I don't use a bottling bucket so there is no spigot to deal with. I use my All-in-One pump for bottling but have carefully sanitized the tubing and bottling attachment.

I clean my bottles with an oxy product and sanitize using StarSan and a bottle rinser attached to the top of my drying tree.

If not completely rinsed, oxi-clean can adversely effect carbonation.

I use oxi-clean when delabeling bottles and had a batch with inconsistent carb'ing. I was rinsing with cold water and posted my issue on HBT. Someone suggested rinsing oxi-clean with hot water and that resolved my issue.

 

[IslandLizard]

I don't use a bottling bucket so there is no spigot to deal with. I use my All-in-One pump for bottling but have carefully sanitized the tubing and bottling attachment.

I clean my bottles with an oxy product and sanitize using StarSan and a bottle rinser attached to the top of my drying tree.

Rinsing that Oxy clean from your bottles and equipment is mandatory. The stuff is alkaline and will render Starsan useless on contact ==> no sanitation ==> open to infection.

I didn't realize you're using an All-in-One wine pump. Never seen one before and I'm quite intrigued. I looked at some videos on their site. Are you splashing that beer like they do the wine? Or are you using a proper fill tube that reaches the bottom of the bottles?

Although lack of carbonation may be because of loose bottle caps, I doubt they cause sour taste in beer. Gas goes out, but nothing can get in, really. Since the sour taste starts after bottling, it must be something that happens during or around that bottling process.

Have you found your beer to taste sour after it has been in the fermentor for extended time, like 2-3 weeks or longer? If so then we're likely looking at infection.

 

[Val-the-Brew-Gal]

If not completely rinsed, oxi-clean can adversely effect carbonation.

I use oxi-clean when delabeling bottles and had a batch with inconsistent carb'ing. I was rinsing with cold water and posted my issue on HBT. Someone suggested rinsing oxi-clean with hot water and that resolved my issue.

I rinse the bottles several times with very hot water. And I use the same procedure on all batches (those that have turned out good and those that haven't) so that doesn't seem like a possible cause to me. Plus it doesn't seem like it would be all the bottles in the batch if that were the problem, only those that I hadn't rinsed well.

 

[Val-the-Brew-Gal]

Rinsing that Oxy clean from your bottles and equipment is mandatory. The stuff is alkaline and will render Starsan useless on contact ==> no sanitation ==> open to infection.

I didn't realize you're using an All-in-One wine pump. Never seen one before and I'm quite intrigued. I looked at some videos on their site. Are you splashing that beer like they do the wine? Or are you using a proper fill tube that reaches the bottom of the bottles?

Although lack of carbonation may be because of loose bottle caps, I doubt they cause sour taste in beer. Gas goes out, but nothing can get in, really. Since the sour taste starts after bottling, it must be something that happens during or around that bottling process.

Have you found your beer to taste sour after it has been in the fermentor for extended time, like 2-3 weeks or longer? If so then we're likely looking at infection.

I use the bottle filling attachment which does run the beer down the side of the bottle...but it is all done under vacuum so it isn't introducing any oxygen in the process.

I am rinsing the bottles well with hot water, so I don't think that is the problem...but I suppose I can be more diligent there. I would just think that if that was the root of the problem, I would have some bottles carbonating and some not, not a consistent problem across the whole batch. Plus I use the same procedure all the time and some batches turn out and others don't.