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Maximizing Efficiency when Batch Sparging
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pricelessbrewing
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Run off gravity doesn't really matter for batch sparging. Sparge to your preboil volume.
Stir the crap out of the batch sparge, and run off speed doesn't matter as long as it doesn't get stuck it's fine to open it all the way.
To find out if it's conversion or lautering efficiency that's low, take a gravity reading of the first runnings.
Stir the crap out of the batch sparge, and run off speed doesn't matter as long as it doesn't get stuck it's fine to open it all the way.
To find out if it's conversion or lautering efficiency that's low, take a gravity reading of the first runnings.
bucketnative
Well-Known Member
True, if the sugars aren't there... you can't collect them during sparge.
I'll definitely have better notes next time (including the gravity at each run off as pricelessbrewing suggested), and I think I'll be following your method on Batch Sparging to a tee (scaled down for a 5-gal batch). Thanks.
Chops1867
Well-Known Member
Last beer I made, I used an electric hand mixer rather than a paddle to stir my mash. My efficiency went up over 10%. I will try again on my next brew and see if it increases my efficiency again.
Responding to my own post below, now that I've done another brew with my mash tun, and put in to practice a number of the suggestions y'all made, for which I thank you.
Only did a single 5.5 gallon batch this time, and a new recipe. Changes to my process:
- Grain crush: Bought my own mill and cranked it down to 0.030" (or as I saw in one post- "crank it down so tight it scares you, and then crank it down some more!"). I could definitely tell the difference in the grain even as compared to the double-crush I did at the brew-supply last time
- Ditched the PH 5.2 Stabilizer: Most posts here say it's snake oil and just adds a lot of sodium
- Attempted some water chemistry management: Added calcium chloride to my distilled water, and acidified malt to the grist. Basically the foundation suggestion in the Water Chemistry Primer Thread. (As a note, I tested my mash output pH with a test strip and seemed to get 4.6, but I understand those aren't terribly reliable?)
- Paid strict attention to temps: Actually temps were more problematic for me this time, I suspect due to the lower mass of a single batch. But I was pretty close.
My results were much better:
- I was only about a point low with my pre-boil gravity (as compared to the recipe, I actually nailed Beersmith's estimate)
- My boil volume was spot on (although I ended up using another 3/4 gallon MORE mash water than Beermsith suggested.. I'm still not sure what's going on with tun deadspace or what)
- My OG was actually 2 points above. I attribute this to cracking my mash tun valve open after my transfer and letting it drip for 10 minutes. I also tipped my tun over and strained some more liquid out. I ended up with another ~3/8 gal that I added to the boil. I cranked up the burner and boiled off more that normal, so I made up a couple of points I believe.
All in all, Beersmith calculates a ~76% efficiency, so significantly better than my ~63% last time.
Now to see if the recipe is what I hope it will be...
Thanks again.
Only did a single 5.5 gallon batch this time, and a new recipe. Changes to my process:
- Grain crush: Bought my own mill and cranked it down to 0.030" (or as I saw in one post- "crank it down so tight it scares you, and then crank it down some more!"). I could definitely tell the difference in the grain even as compared to the double-crush I did at the brew-supply last time
- Ditched the PH 5.2 Stabilizer: Most posts here say it's snake oil and just adds a lot of sodium
- Attempted some water chemistry management: Added calcium chloride to my distilled water, and acidified malt to the grist. Basically the foundation suggestion in the Water Chemistry Primer Thread. (As a note, I tested my mash output pH with a test strip and seemed to get 4.6, but I understand those aren't terribly reliable?)
- Paid strict attention to temps: Actually temps were more problematic for me this time, I suspect due to the lower mass of a single batch. But I was pretty close.
My results were much better:
- I was only about a point low with my pre-boil gravity (as compared to the recipe, I actually nailed Beersmith's estimate)
- My boil volume was spot on (although I ended up using another 3/4 gallon MORE mash water than Beermsith suggested.. I'm still not sure what's going on with tun deadspace or what)
- My OG was actually 2 points above. I attribute this to cracking my mash tun valve open after my transfer and letting it drip for 10 minutes. I also tipped my tun over and strained some more liquid out. I ended up with another ~3/8 gal that I added to the boil. I cranked up the burner and boiled off more that normal, so I made up a couple of points I believe.
All in all, Beersmith calculates a ~76% efficiency, so significantly better than my ~63% last time.
Now to see if the recipe is what I hope it will be...
Thanks again.
Thanks gents.
Now to figure out why my pre-boil gravity was 25 points below what Beersmith suggested it should have been.
-I used 42 qts of water for 32lbs of grains, or a 1.3:1 ratio.
-Heated up my mash tun with 175 degree water, let it settle to my strike temp of 168, added my grains and it settled to 155.5, and only dropped to 150 by the end of the hour
-My water was bottled water, to which I added some PH5.2 conditioner
-Double-milled my grains at LHBS to improve my crush
-I stirred vigorously when adding the grains, and every 15 minutes along the way. No dough balls.
-At the end of 60 minutes, I stirred one last time, vourlauf'd, and then drained in to my kettle, only yielding 5.5 gallons instead of the 6.5 I expected.
-Sparged with ~180 degree water, using 6.5 gals to make up for my missing volume. Stirred in the hot water, let it set a minute and then drained.
I ended up with 12gals of 1.042 wort. BS suggested 1.067 using 73% mash efficiency. Measured eff = 46%
So I'm trying to figure out what happened. Temps seemed right on.
I had hoped the double-crush would do it... I'd estimate the mill roller gap as having been 2 credit-card thicknesses.
The fact that I got 1gal less volume out of the initial mash is odd. I don't think that was a stuck manifold, as when I sparged, that extra water didn't "show up". Would 32 lbs of grains really absorb 25% more water than the calculators suggest?
Even if it did, as long as I sparged with the right amount to hit the correct volume, absorption shouldn't throw off my sugar extraction like that, right?
Is 60 mins too short for a mash of that amount of grain?
I've read that lack of calcium in the water can stifle conversion... I don't have a water profile. My buddy had pH test strips that only had a "color key" up to 4.4, but the strip color was off the end of the scale so it was above 4.4, but not sure how close to exactly 5.2...
Any other thoughts/suggestions? To have been THAT low was a bit of a bummer.
I compensated by running another gallon of left over hot sparge water thru to get every last bit of sugar I could out, and then boiling vigorously as I could, for longer than normal before starting my hop schedule. I also tossed in a bit of DME I had. The result was slightly less than planned volume, but actually exceeded my target OG gravity by 4 points... so I'll still have some good beer, just a bit less of it.
-sc
Insulation. Reflectix, towels, blankets, sleeping bags, winter coats, foam (e.g. yoga mat - test for stability at mash temps.)
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steveoatley
someone has to fail, so the rest of you look good
I "pre Heat" my mash tun
dump 5 gal of strike water in my Igloo cooler
Let it sit for 10 minutes - to pre heat the cold mash tun ( usually 58F )
Dump that water back into my HLT, get back to temp....
Put that lid on the igloo cooler
then mash in....
Do you take the temp of your grains before mash in ?
I found that was the biggest mistake i was making to hit mash temps
was Over estimating the ambient temp in my brewery & the temp of my grain.
my 2 cents
S
How much heat are you losing?
I'm not entirely sure. I have never actually opened up my cooler during the mash to check. Do you have a regular schedule that you check your temp during the mash?
Nope. Every time you open it to check or stir, you lose heat. Once I hit mash temp, I close up the cooler and leave it for 60-90 min. I've never lost more than 2 F in that time. Sounds like you may not even have a problem. I certainly wouldn't worry about it. It's like paying interest on a debt you don't owe!
I always open and check my temp about half way threw 60/90 min mash. I then stir the mash a good amount. My efficiency went from low 70's to mid 80's. I heard of doing this on basic brewing radio, and I think there was one on beersmith radio. Remember mash temp I a range.
I always open and check my temp about half way threw 60/90 min mash. I then stir the mash a good amount. My efficiency went from low 70's to mid 80's. I heard of doing this on basic brewing radio, and I think there was one on beersmith radio. Remember mash temp is a range.
I don't do that, I hold my mash temp to within 1-2F, and average efficiency in the mid 80s also. Which is a way of saying you may not need to be doing that.
Which Denny is this.
This is the podcast I had mentioned.
https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/basic-brewing-radio/id75092679?mt=2&i=366759027
Denny Conn. And I'm simply relating my own experience over the course of 500 batch sparge brews.
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It's of my opinion that if stirring midway thru the mash helps your efficiency, then you probably didn't stir well enough at the beginning of the mash to begin with...
pricelessbrewing
Brewer's Friend Software Manager
Stirring during the mash might help compensate for otherwise not ideal mash conditions. I'd rather dial in my crush/ph than deal with temp loss and extra effort babysitting my mash, but to each his own.
There's two things going that happen during the mash that can affect your mash efficiency, conversion and lautering for first run off. If you're getting poor conversion (below ~93%) then you should focus on crush/ph first. If you're getting higher lauter efficiency, then you weren't stirring before first run off and that's a separate issue.
Either way, if it works for you that's fine, but it's not necessary and you probably have other issues hiding as a result.
Edit: Didn't think of that, low conversion efficiency can also be attributed to poor dough in as AZ IPA implied.
There's two things going that happen during the mash that can affect your mash efficiency, conversion and lautering for first run off. If you're getting poor conversion (below ~93%) then you should focus on crush/ph first. If you're getting higher lauter efficiency, then you weren't stirring before first run off and that's a separate issue.
Either way, if it works for you that's fine, but it's not necessary and you probably have other issues hiding as a result.
Edit: Didn't think of that, low conversion efficiency can also be attributed to poor dough in as AZ IPA implied.
Stillraining
Well-Known Member
I stir twice just because I like keeping busy and LOVE the smell. 
Rather it helps or not I have never tested that out....and dont care, its fun and I like doing it, makes me feel like the mad scientist and that Im actually doing something to make this stuff instead of the reality that I play very little role in any of it compared to our friends enzymes and yeast. Just my way of coddling them along and imparting my love on them in however small of way.. I am a romantic after all.
Carry on.
Rather it helps or not I have never tested that out....and dont care, its fun and I like doing it, makes me feel like the mad scientist and that Im actually doing something to make this stuff instead of the reality that I play very little role in any of it compared to our friends enzymes and yeast. Just my way of coddling them along and imparting my love on them in however small of way.. I am a romantic after all. Carry on.
I stir twice just because I like keeping busy and LOVE the smell.
Carry on.
So am I, but I'm a pragmatic romantic If it doesn't matter I don't do it and save my time and care for something that matters.
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What for?
Nah, I think it's more about avoiding complaints about stuck sparges from too fine of a crush...
The difference between 75% and 85% efficiency in a 1.050 5.5g batch is about a pound of grain....
Assuming you have complete conversion in your mash, that will make no difference. I've tested it dozens of times and get the same efficiency and beer quality even with no rest after adding sparge water.
ExperimentalMental
Member
JJack, I agree with you on the waiting time for sparging. I add my sparge water, mix well, allow to settle for 5-10min, then mix and allow to settle again. No real science behind it, just what I do. I get my grain from Williams Brewing and their crush is not too course, fairly fine, I think. It is also in 1 lb packs, if I need to change a recipient on the fly, I'm good. No wasted grain.
Tested dozens of times and found to be unnecessary.
Correct. All you need to do is stir the sparge enough to get a uniform concentration of sugar in all the liquid throughout the mash. After that, any additional time or stirring does nothing to increase lauter efficiency. Note, that you are not dissolving any sugar with the stirring, as all of the sugar is in solution when it is created. There is never any solid sugar in a mash.
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ExperimentalMental
Member
I look at it as just my process, a process that has worked for 8 years or so. I understand it is not needed, but...why fix what ain't broken. I think it all comes down to one thing, being happy with ones end result. Besides, it allows me few minutes to perform other brewing tasks which may be going on. I have been known to brew two different brews on the same day, which equates to a lot of work. Regardless, you guys are correct, However, it is not detrimental to the end product.
Nope, not detrimental at all. I just have a dislike of needless effort, but whatever works for you is the right way to do it!
davisc1513
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So what is the best way for a beginner? Fly sparge or batch sparge?
I'd recommend batch sparge for a beginner. There are fewer ways to mess up a batch sparge vs. a fly sparge, and equipment configuration has less effect on the outcome. Once you have batch sparging down, feel free to experiment with fly sparging, and then use whichever you like better for whatever reasons.
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BIAB with no sparge is easiest for a beginner.
BIAB with batch sparge is only slightly more difficult and requires a second vessel. Gives better efficiency.
Out of the 2 options you mention I have no experience, but batch sparging is the simpler process.
IMO, batch sparge is best for everyone from beginner to super advanced. I've brewed over 500 batches, so I'm no beginner. I've always batch sparged and never found any reason not to.
davisc1513
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Good to know. I've been having major efficiency issues trying to fly sparge because i didn't think there was a different but ill change that next brew
It's entirely possible that your efficiency will increase with batch sparging if the problem is a poor lauter design. But the biggest factor in efficiency os crush. Work with that if you haven't already.
davisc1513
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I will I've been reading and the popular choice seems to be .26-.30?
I have no idea what my mill gap is. I'm making grist, not gaps! I adjust til the crush looks right. And it's dependent on your own system. Unless you use exactly the same equipment as someone else, the gap that works for them may not work for you.
^^^This^^^
I will add to it though. Not only the same equipment, but the same settings, the same water profile, the same malts, etc. We can all use the same malts, water and equipment, but we will *never* achieve the same results. That is unless we are using the same facilities.
LordRogan
Member
How much sparge water should be used and why? Things must have to be accurately calculated to not effect the FG? Either less water used in the mash to compensate or less for the sparge? Not yet done my first All Grain and want to be sure on everything. Thanks in advance!
Easiest way, that gives good results, is to use 60% of your total water for strike/mashing, and then the other 40% for a single batch sparge. The more formal calculations are not difficult, but are more than you need to worry about for your first AG batch. And, it's not FG you are worried about, but rather hitting OG. Sparge method should have minimal effect on FG.
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