Mashed out and sparged way too hot.

[rdavidw]

On a Sierra Nevada Pale Ale Clone, I was not paying attention (drinking) and mashed out and sparged way too hot. The wort didn't taste too bad but the finished beer is awful. Very bitter and tart. My guess is it's very high in tannins. If you try to look past the tannins, it may not be that bad. Any fix or just dump it?
Thanks

 

[MrHadack]

Is it bottled already or in primary still? Either way, I'd suggest keeping it for a month and see if it mellows any. If not, dump at that point. But some of the flavors you describe can age out.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I oversparged a batch once in my early days.
In my experience it doesn't get better.

Consider adjusting your brewing water to get mash pH into range.

 

[rdavidw]

Two weeks in primary and two weeks hopped in secondary. Cold crashed and then kegged and sat at room temp for about a week and then into the kezzer at 37f for about a week now. I tasted it when I did gravity readings in the primary and it seemed fine. The strong tannin taste did not seem to come out till it was on tap.

Here is my setup:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/new-home-basement-bar.663517/

 

[rdavidw]

I oversparged a batch once in my early days.
In my experience it doesn't get better.

Consider adjusting your brewing water to get mash pH into range.

Thanks RPH Guy. I hit my pH numbers fairly spot on. I'm using a Hanna meter and 25% acid and also acidulated malts.

 

[odie]

Drink it all. If it sucks well suck it up and don’t do it again. U must pay for your mistakes or you will make them again

 

[rdavidw]

Drink it all. If it sucks well suck it up and don’t do it again. U must pay for your mistakes or you will make them again

I will drink my shame.

 

[odie]

Welcome to the club...I’m choking down 5 gal of overly coffee’d kolsch

I shall not make that mistake again

 

[rdavidw]

Welcome to the club...I’m choking down 5 gal of overly coffee’d kolsch

I shall not make that mistake again

 

[Big Monk]

On a Sierra Nevada Pale Ale Clone, I was not paying attention (drinking) and mashed out and sparged way too hot. The wort didn't taste too bad but the finished beer is awful. Very bitter and tart. My guess is it's very high in tannins. If you try to look past the tannins, it may not be that bad. Any fix or just dump it?
Thanks

What you are experiencing is not a function of temperature but pH. What water did you sparge with?

 

[rdavidw]

What you are experiencing is not a function of temperature but pH. What water did you sparge with?

Interesting. . . .

I have been brewing a batch or two a month since around 1998 but didn't go to all grain till around 2007. I am a slow learner but getting a little better. I do things a bit backwards in that I heat up to 10 gallons in my BK to start with. Just use a single induction burner on my BK with a copper coil in it. My HLT has no coil. The BK holds the temp in the HERMS setup. After I get the MT up to mash out temp I then pump the water in my BK to my HLT. It only takes about 8 min to pump the water over and its way easier to clean as I only need a single coil. When I chill it cleans the coil in the BK. Super simple.

So . . . back to your question. I think you are on the right track. I just moved and now have new water to brew with. Here is my new setup: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/new-home-basement-bar.663517/

My old water was around a ph of 6.4 (I always use RO water and rebuild with Burton's water salts and Calcium). With that water I would add about 14 ml of 25% acid to the water and 3.5% of my grain bill with Acidulated malt. This would hold me fairly close to a PH of 5.3, using a Hanna meter. My new well water, after the RO has a higher PH and I need 28.5 of 25% acid to get to a ph of 5.3. Used the same 3.5% of Acidulated malt. For this batch, I added the water and the salts, calcium and acid the night before the brew. My ph was 5.4 but I noticed the water had a blue tint. After pumping to the HLT I also noticed a bright blue residue at the bottom of the kettle. The only new variables I can think of is the new water and higher levels of acid added. My new well was tested for toxins and came back clean. As a test, I boiled some RO water first in the same BK and looked for the blue resin. I then added each additive one by one till I got the blue but never did. My suspension is that the higher acid levels, left overnight, corroded my copper coil. I got a small glass with some pennies and added some of the 25% acid and boom - identical blue residue. My fix is to now only add the 25% acid just prior to the brew.

 

[Big Monk]

Interesting. . . .

I have been brewing a batch or two a month since around 1998 but didn't go to all grain till around 2007. I am a slow learner but getting a little better. I do things a bit backwards in that I heat up to 10 gallons in my BK to start with. Just use a single induction burner on my BK with a copper coil in it. My HLT has no coil. The BK holds the temp in the HERMS setup. After I get the MT up to mash out temp I then pump the water in my BK to my HLT. It only takes about 8 min to pump the water over and its way easier to clean as I only need a single coil. When I chill it cleans the coil in the BK. Super simple.

So . . . back to your question. I think you are on the right track. I just moved and now have new water to brew with. Here is my new setup: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/new-home-basement-bar.663517/

My old water was around a ph of 6.4 (I always use RO water and rebuild with Burton's water salts and Calcium). With that water I would add about 14 ml of 25% acid to the water and 3.5% of my grain bill with Acidulated malt. This would hold me fairly close to a PH of 5.3, using a Hanna meter. My new well water, after the RO has a higher PH and I need 28.5 of 25% acid to get to a ph of 5.3. Used the same 3.5% of Acidulated malt. For this batch, I added the water and the salts, calcium and acid the night before the brew. My ph was 5.4 but I noticed the water had a slight blue tint. Mostly blue. After pumping to the HLT I also noticed a bright blue residue at the bottom of the kettle. The only new variables I can think of is the new water and higher levels of acid added. My new well was tested for toxins and came back clean. As a test, I boiled some RO water first in the same BK and looked for the blue resin. I then added each additive one by one till I got the blue but never did. My suspension is that the higher acid levels, left overnight, corroded my copper coil. I got a small glass with some pennies and added some of the 25% acid and boom - identical blue residue. My fix is to now only add the 25% acid just prior to the brew.

At least now you know it wasn’t process based.

 

[doug293cz]

Interesting. . . .

I have been brewing a batch or two a month since around 1998 but didn't go to all grain till around 2007. I am a slow learner but getting a little better. I do things a bit backwards in that I heat up to 10 gallons in my BK to start with. Just use a single induction burner on my BK with a copper coil in it. My HLT has no coil. The BK holds the temp in the HERMS setup. After I get the MT up to mash out temp I then pump the water in my BK to my HLT. It only takes about 8 min to pump the water over and its way easier to clean as I only need a single coil. When I chill it cleans the coil in the BK. Super simple.

So . . . back to your question. I think you are on the right track. I just moved and now have new water to brew with. Here is my new setup: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/new-home-basement-bar.663517/

My old water was around a ph of 6.4 (I always use RO water and rebuild with Burton's water salts and Calcium). With that water I would add about 14 ml of 25% acid to the water and 3.5% of my grain bill with Acidulated malt. This would hold me fairly close to a PH of 5.3, using a Hanna meter. My new well water, after the RO has a higher PH and I need 28.5 of 25% acid to get to a ph of 5.3. Used the same 3.5% of Acidulated malt. For this batch, I added the water and the salts, calcium and acid the night before the brew. My ph was 5.4 but I noticed the water had a slight blue tint. Mostly blue. After pumping to the HLT I also noticed a bright blue residue at the bottom of the kettle. The only new variables I can think of is the new water and higher levels of acid added. My new well was tested for toxins and came back clean. As a test, I boiled some RO water first in the same BK and looked for the blue resin. I then added each additive one by one till I got the blue but never did. My suspension is that the higher acid levels, left overnight, corroded my copper coil. I got a small glass with some pennies and added some of the 25% acid and boom - identical blue residue. My fix is to now only add the 25% acid just prior to the brew.

The blue color is almost certainly due to copper ions that have dissolved into the water.

Brew on

 

[rdavidw]

Will the high levels of copper in the brew water will be much lower in the finished beer? Safe to drink?

 

[acidrain]

Here's what I get from the OP's posts...
He is measuring the water's PH when identifying needed adjustments.
He is using the acidic wort to "clean" his copper coil.

The reality is that water PH has nothing to do with mash PH. You need to know your water mineral profile in order to make accurate adjustments.
I've found that taking measurements 20 minutes in to a brew will tell you if you are off, but by then it's too late.
If you know the starting water profile, you can enter those values into an on-line calculator (I like Brewer's Friend) along with your grain bill, and it will very accurately predict your PH level. You can use your PH meter to check it, and make adjustments to your recipe for next time.
Regarding the dissolved copper, that's just bad all around, especially if there is any green Verdigris present: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_toxicity

Like others have said, tannin extraction occurs when both the temperature is too high, and the PH is off.
Why even do a mash out? To me, it's a waist of time.

 

[Big Monk]

Why even do a mash out? To me, it's a waist of time.

I personally do it but test it as an additional mash rest, holding there for 10-15 minutes.

The extended rest is known to promote glycoproteins, a very foam positive substance. Plus the extended rest seems to improve my no-sparge Lauter Efficiency.

 

[rdavidw]

Here's what I get from the OP's posts...
He is measuring the water's PH when identifying needed adjustments.
He is using the acidic wort to "clean" his copper coil.

The reality is that water PH has nothing to do with mash PH. You need to know your water mineral profile in order to make accurate adjustments.
I've found that taking measurements 20 minutes in to a brew will tell you if you are off, but by then it's too late.
If you know the starting water profile, you can enter those values into an on-line calculator (I like Brewer's Friend) along with your grain bill, and it will very accurately predict your PH level. You can use your PH meter to check it, and make adjustments to your recipe for next time.
Regarding the dissolved copper, that's just bad all around, especially if there is any green Verdigris present: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_toxicity

Like others have said, tannin extraction occurs when both the temperature is too high, and the PH is off.
Why even do a mash out? To me, it's a waist of time.

I just moved to a new house with new water. I had a fairly good idea of how my old water would behave. Still trying to figure out my new water. I use 25% Phosphoric Acid to get my strike and sparge water to Ph target. For non-dark malts, I add Acidulated malt to my grain bill at a rate of 3.5% of total grain bill. I typically take readings prior to pumping my strike water and early and late in the mash. I don't re-test the sparge water as it is heated together with the strike water.

I don't "clean" my built-in copper coil with Phosphoric Acid. Every few brews I will throw some brew clean in the BK and pump it through everything and then rinse with hot water. I have, once or twice, cleaned a copper coil with a weak SanStar mix.

I had a few problems with this batch. The most obvious is my mash out got way too hot, about 180 or so and then I also sparged way too hot, likely about 185-190. My target mashout temp is 168 and my target sparge water temp is to start around 172 and let it fall. My other problem is that my OR unit crapped out. A brine line check valve failed and I didn't know it. My RO water runs around 3-4 ppm and I thought that is where I was but I was actually using about 290 ppm water. I added my regular additions of Burton's water salts and calcium to water that was already high in minerals, likely throwing off the Ph.

I had some good batches since then but am still dialing things in after the move. I dumped this batch. Thanks for the help.

 

[doug293cz]

If there is enough copper in the water to turn it blue, I wouldn't drink any beer that was made with that water.

Brew on