Mash Ph, alkalinity and RA are driving me nuts

[Glynn]

I've been using the suggested water profile (table 19) in the "water" book and for the life of me i cant get them to line up. When I get my mash Ph right the alkalinity and RA are high and if i get the alkalinity and RA right, mash Ph is high. Does RA really matter? I brew pales pretty much all the time and try to hit a mash ph of around 5.40 give or take. I use acid malt, gyp, chloride, baking soda, Epsom and 100% RO water.

 

[kenlenard]

Do you know the composition of your RO water? I've told this story before so I apologize to those who have heard it but I used to get bulk RO water from the grocery store and then I became suspicious of it. I sent a sample to Ward Labs and there were high TDS and Bicarb levels. NOT RO WATER! Now I dilute with distilled if I have to. I see you're in Elgin... I'm in Buffalo Grove and have Lake Michigan water... do you? LM water is pretty good for pale ales so the only reason I could see using RO would be if you were on a well or knew your source water were no good. You would have to know your water numbers to get a good handle on this so the question of what water ions are in your RO water would have to be answered first. RA and pH both come into play. The fact that you're using baking soda, gypsum, MgSO4, etc. all says to me that you're overdoing it. Less is more. Do you use an acid? I try to get things lined up where I want it and if my mash pH is high, I use lactic acid to lower it. More info is needed and I'll try to help if I can. Cheers Glynn.

 

[Wynne-R]

Lose the baking soda, it will work against the acid. Also Epsom salts taste horrible.

Residual alkalinity is not a useful concept. If you get your mash pH right, that’s the important thing.

 

[kenlenard]

The baking soda raises pH while calcium chloride, calcium sulfate and acid all lower it. Epsom salt (MgSO4) has been mentioned as one of those ingredients that brewers really don't need to use because grain contains quite a bit of Mg and you don't need that much. I have it in my arsenal but haven't used it in years. The key is to have everything you may need and apply it properly.

 

[Glynn]

sorry for the late reply, i had the 2nd shift today. My water supply is the fox river and it is horribly inconsistent. MY beer tastes much better since going RO. I dont use machine water, i buy my RO water in 2.5 gal containers and have never had it checked. my main problem is balancing Ph, alk and ra. is this something i should worry about or am i obsesing over nothing. I'm much happier with the taste of my beer so much so that i entered my first cali common into competition. I didnt score high marks due to low carbonation and bitterness but the judge said it was a well made beer with no major flaws.

 

[clickondan]

I'm not as experienced as others here, been brewing for a while but only have about a year of dialing in mash chemistry behind me. So for what it's worth, I only take the following into consideration, in order of importance, highest first:

- Mash pH
- Source water alkalinity
- Cl / SO4, both measurement and ratio
- Ca
- Na
- Sparge pH (would be higher on the list if I fly sparged)
- Source water pH
- Residual alkalinity only if it is in the high positives (it never is)

I don't take any other measurements into consideration.

I need to know the profile of my water source. If I don't have this information for whatever reason, I'd be shooting in the dark, so I'd use distilled. Even with RO, I'm not sure I'd really know enough.

I only use lactic acid (would use phosphoric if my water had high alkalinity), gypsum, calcium chloride, table salt and (rarely) chalk for modifications.

I use the water calculator at Brewer's Friend and sometimes Bru'n Water if I need another input.

This is an over-generalization, but for the most part, the lighter the beer, the more distilled water I use. My tap water is a pretty good starting point for most styles and the source rarely changes.

 

[kenlenard]

For me, I try very hard to limit variables. When my mash temp was jumping all over, I got a nice good digital thermometer. When I wasn't sure if my pH strips were working right, I got a meter. For the water, it's essential to know those numbers because every sheet you work with is going to ask for them. RO water can fluctuate but if you trust the source of the RO water, you could make it work. If you have no idea what's in it from batch to batch, you have a variable. My Lake Michigan water is very consistent and also very good for brewing except for the slightly-higher-than-desired bicarb number of 138ppm. Even with that, Martin B. has mentioned that bicarbonate can be 'neutralized' with acid so I really only dilute on very pale beers now so that I can reach my mash, sparge and kettle pH easier. Glynn, first thing for you is that you need to know your water numbers. If you think the RO water you're getting is consistent, send some to Ward Labs and get it analyzed. If you don't think it's consistent, switch to distilled which is all zeroes... and then build. These spreadsheets (EZ_Water, Bru'N'Water) all tell you how the pH will line up for a given beer so I would be worried first about pH (as Clickondan mentioned) and then tailor the chlorides and sulfates how you like and go. Remember too that some of this is personal preference. I happen to dislike beers that are super high in sulfates so I steer mine more towards chlorides. Just me.