Mash Out versus Sparge

[mgortel]

I have read lots of posts on this and still a bit confused....I would like to put my understanding of this in my own words and see if this is correct....please chine in!

Doing my first all grain this weekend.....

As I understand it......my mash will set in the mash tun for 60 minutes.

1) At this point, if I drain the mash tun...then add water.......this is a SPARGE.

2) If I add water before doing any draining of the mash tun...then this would be a MASH OUT.

Is this correct?

 

[wildwest450]

Only if you raise the grainbed to 168f to 170(and hold it for at least 10 minutes) will it be a mashout, but yes you have the general idea.

_

 

[shauntraxler]

You still sparge even if you mash out. Mash out just raises the temperature up to the point where enzymatic activity ceases. Sparge effectively does the same thing, which is why many people skip the mash out and just add that water to their sparge volume.

 

[mgortel]

OK....but everyhting I read about BATCH SPARGING says raise the temperature to 168F.....so effectively it is a combined mash-out and sparge?

That is what is confusing me....

 

[wildwest450]

You can do it in one step if you like, your sparge water needs to be up close to the 190f mark to work.


_

 

[bob1852]

OK....but everyhting I read about BATCH SPARGING says raise the temperature to 168F.....so effectively it is a combined mash-out and sparge?

That is what is confusing me....

With a mash-out, you add a smaller amount of near boiling water to raise your entire mash from the mash temperature to ~168ish.

You then sparge with ~170ish water to maintain a temp of ~168ish.

When a no-mash-out, you drain the mash, then add hotter sparge water (~185ish) to get the grain bed up to 168ish during the sparge.

 

[mgortel]

OK OK OK....starting to understand the differences betwene the 2.

Now, obviously it is not necessary to do a MASH OUT....or everyone owuld do it.....so what are the pro's and cons?

 

[bob1852]

OK OK OK....starting to understand the differences betwene the 2.

Now, obviously it is not necessary to do a MASH OUT....or everyone owuld do it.....so what are the pro's and cons?

history, tradition, personal preference.....

Some would suggest that you'll have a more fluid drain if you mash out; especially when doing a longer fly sparge...

 

[JonK331]

I don't do a mash out and often wonder why people do. The idea is that you stop enzyme activity before sparging. I don't really see the point of this since the enzymes will be killed with the boiling wort. Who cares if there's still some conversion going on during the sparge. Maybe someone else can explain.

 

[AKnewbrews]

Doesn't the enzymatic activity the cause the stickiness of the mash - a mash prone to a stuck/difficult sparge if the temperature of the mash is not raised for sparging?

Not only does 168 degrees cease enzymatic activity, but it is not too hot to cause tannin extraction from the husks of the grains.

You may maximize efficiency due to the thinner, hotter mash-out better rinsing the thinner, hotter sugars from the grains.

So ease of sparging, no tannin extraction and maximized efficiency are three good reasons for mashing out.

 

[Yooper]

Doesn't the enzymatic activity the cause the stickiness of the mash - a mash prone to a stuck/difficult sparge if the temperature of the mash is not raised for sparging?

Not only does 168 degrees cease enzymatic activity, but it is not too hot to cause tannin extraction from the husks of the grains.

So ease of sparging and no tannin extraction are two good reasons for mashing out.

No, I don't see a more "sticky" mash at 154 than I do at 168.

If you're batch sparging, the first batch sparge round is essentially a mashout addition, since you'll add hot enough water to bring the grainbed to 168. With a 152 degree mash, you'll be adding water near 190 degrees.

For fly sparging, I always do a mashout, as it takes almost a full hour and I want to preserve the wort "profile" I made.

 

[shauntraxler]

So ease of sparging and no tannin extraction are two good reasons for mashing out.

Tannin extraction only occurs in the grain bed sits at too high a temperature for too long... When I say too high, I mean 175+. This is why we calculate our sparge temperatures. This way, we avoid tannin extraction by never letting our grain bed get over 170F.

Personally, I think the mashout is heading down the same path as using a secondary for standard brews... It's not necessary and is an additional step that can be skipped.

 

[threeeight]

I've been playing around with mashing out or not mashing out, and I've been getting somewhat better efficiency when mashing out. Granted, it's only been 5 or 6 batches, so it's hard to say if it's solely due to this step, but I've been getting an additional 3-5% efficiency.

I'm also relatively new to ag brewing, so I'm fully aware that the variations in efficiency may be due to factors other than mashing out or not, as I'm still dialing in my overall process. YMMV.

 

[bullinachinashop]

Your efficiency goes up because the sugars are thinner @ 168 and easier to extract from the mash.

Another big reason to mash out is to prevent over attenuation. You don't want your Irish Red or your Stout to finish @ 1.007!

Bull

 

[Northcalais40]

Just a single example, not proof of anything, But:

My last brew was ten gallons fly sparged with no mash out. The sparge was really slow the water at 170F. The sparge took 1h 45m. I mashed at 156F expecting enzyme activity to continue prior to boil. It didn't. My FG at bottling was 1.018. My efficiency was at an all time high, contrary to the thin sugar theory.

 

[wildwest450]

Tannin extraction only occurs in the grain bed sits at too high a temperature for too long... When I say too high, I mean 175+.

Actually, ph has a lot more to do with extracting tannins than temperature does.


_

 

[JuanMoore]

Your efficiency goes up because the sugars are thinner @ 168 and easier to extract from the mash.

This seems to be a common misconception. Sparge temp has little to no effect on efficiency, especially when batch sparging. See here-https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/cold-water-sparge-110856/

Another big reason to mash out is to prevent over attenuation. You don't want your Irish Red or your Stout to finish @ 1.007!

Bull

There's some truth to this, but the vast majority on the conversion has already taken place, so the difference is really negligible. Many brewers mash overnight, and even that extended period of time only results in a point or two difference in attenuation, so I doubt an extra 10-15 min is going to change things appreciably. The mash temp for the first 30-40 min is the main determining factor of the wort profile.

 

[Coldies]

Another thing the OP will need to consider is if he can even mash out. I have a 5 gallon cooler and with most of my brews its almost always maxed out, so I dont mash out until my second runnings becuase I don't have the space. I collect first runnings then add my sparge water at the desired mash out temp and hold it for 10 minutes or so, drain repeat.

 

[mgortel]

My mash tun is 50 quarts.....so I could do a mash out.....

Mash out and batch sparge (to me).....seem so similar, but, it appears to me that there is no need to mash out since I am batch sparging.

Seems to me that mash out really is only necessary if you are fly sparging.....

Am I off-base here or does that make sense....??

On the flip side.....it doesn't seem like such a big deal to do a mash out.....

 

[SethMasterFlex]

Another thing to factor in is what style you are brewing. If oh are brewing an IPA mashed at 150 odds are any additional possible conversion that occurs won't affect your body or fg. If you're mashing at 158 because youre brewing a mild that you want a lot of body and residual sugar on, you're going to benefit from a mashout because this for sure stops conversion.

 

[bob1852]

Actually, ph has a lot more to do with extracting tannins than temperature does.


_

+1

And those who do boiled decoctions would agree...

You can have tannin extraction at well below 170 if you pH creeps too high.

 

[Coldies]

On the flip side.....it doesn't seem like such a big deal to do a mash out.....

If you have the space then why not? Your gonna be adding the water anyways.

 

[spagyric]

I've read several places that mashing out ensures you reach gelatinization temps, which is how it boosts efficiency and reduces the chance of a stuck sparge. I've never heard anything about thinner sugar.

I fly sparge, and the time I didn't do a mashout my efficiency was way lower. I may have sparged too fast that time, so I can't be sure the mashout was the only variable at play, but I always do a mashout now. I mash in a SS pot though, so I just heat it up on the stove to 168*.

 

[mgortel]

OK...say if I do a mash out with a batch sparge it would look something like this?

1) Mash my grains with 1.25 quarts per lb of grain. (My recipe calls for 8.75 lbs of grains).....so we will call it 11 quarts.

2) After my 60 minute....I will add enough water (at the correct temperature to get to 168F) so that my mash out volume of wort will be half my preboil volume.

So....if my preboil needs to be 6.5 gallons....I would need to add mash out water suffiecint to bring my mash tun up to a volume of say 18 quarts. This would allow for 5 quarts of grain absorption and deadspace in tun.

3) Let sit for 10 minutes at 168F ? Drain my wort....hopefully I get 3.25 gallons

4) Next....add 3.25 gallons of proper temperature water for batch sparge to bring up to 168 and drain immediately?

Does this look reasonable?

 

[spagyric]

Yeah, that looks about right. Someone who batch sparges may have something to add, but that's pretty much the process. From what I understand, you can compensate for the volume of your first runnings with your sparge volume. So if you don't get the 3.25 gallons in your first runnings you can increase your sparge volume to get to your preboil volume.

 

[Northcalais40]

mgortel,

You may find that the amount of water needed to hit mash out really cuts into your sparge water. This is the main reason many skip it. You can do a decoction for mash out, or direct heat your mash (if you mash in a kettle) to avoid an infusion. But with a large grain bill, a mash out infusion is going to leave you with precious little water to sparge with.

I don't think you can necessarily calculate it so that you add boiling water for a mash out, and then have your first run off be 1/2 the preboil volume. That would be a special case with a very low gravity beer (ie small grain bill).

 

[bullinachinashop]

This seems to be a common misconception. Sparge temp has little to no effect on efficiency, especially when batch sparging. See here-https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/cold-water-sparge-110856/



There's some truth to this, but the vast majority on the conversion has already taken place, so the difference is really negligible. Many brewers mash overnight, and even that extended period of time only results in a point or two difference in attenuation, so I doubt an extra 10-15 min is going to change things appreciably. The mash temp for the first 30-40 min is the main determining factor of the wort profile.

If you read the tread completely, you'll see that in the experiment, he had included a mash out step. I'd be curious to see other tests on this.

In batch sparging, there may be little difference, but if fly sparging, I'm sure you would see a significant difference.

Proffesional brewers would not be using this practice if there were no benifit.

 

[jkarp]

This seems to be a common misconception. Sparge temp has little to no effect on efficiency, especially when batch sparging. See here-https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/cold-water-sparge-110856/

I think you've misread that old thread or are grossly over-simplifying it. Kai's test involved a relatively thin, batch sparged mash, with a mashout. He also pointed out that a cold sparge could make the beer more prone to haze and doesn't save any time as the wort still needs to be heated to boil.

Sparge temp is important and can impact efficiency - particularly when fly sparging.

Ah, just saw bullinachinashop's reply. What he said.

 

[Yooper]

My mash tun is 50 quarts.....so I could do a mash out.....

Mash out and batch sparge (to me).....seem so similar, but, it appears to me that there is no need to mash out since I am batch sparging.

Seems to me that mash out really is only necessary if you are fly sparging.....

Am I off-base here or does that make sense....??

On the flip side.....it doesn't seem like such a big deal to do a mash out.....

OK...say if I do a mash out with a batch sparge it would look something like this?

1) Mash my grains with 1.25 quarts per lb of grain. (My recipe calls for 8.75 lbs of grains).....so we will call it 11 quarts.

2) After my 60 minute....I will add enough water (at the correct temperature to get to 168F) so that my mash out volume of wort will be half my preboil volume.

So....if my preboil needs to be 6.5 gallons....I would need to add mash out water suffiecint to bring my mash tun up to a volume of say 18 quarts. This would allow for 5 quarts of grain absorption and deadspace in tun.

3) Let sit for 10 minutes at 168F ? Drain my wort....hopefully I get 3.25 gallons

4) Next....add 3.25 gallons of proper temperature water for batch sparge to bring up to 168 and drain immediately?

Does this look reasonable?

As I mentioned, I don't see any advantage at all to a mashout in a batch sparge, if you're doing two rounds of batch sparging. The mashout addition basically IS the first round of batch sparging.

But if you insist on trying a mash out (and why not?!?), your procedure will work. I'd still rather see two rounds of batch sparging, but I know Denny Conn describes his batch sparge technique just as you're planning.

 

[jeffjm]

I am starting to question the need for a mash out. I mash in a cooler, and the last brew day I skipped that step. I used a lot more sparge water than I normally would, but I saw no loss of efficiency. I was mashing low, at about 150, and my sparge water was at 170, so theoretically I should have had sugars that didn't flow as well as if I had mashed out.

 

[JuanMoore]

mgortel,

You may find that the amount of water needed to hit mash out really cuts into your sparge water. This is the main reason many skip it. You can do a decoction for mash out, or direct heat your mash (if you mash in a kettle) to avoid an infusion. But with a large grain bill, a mash out infusion is going to leave you with precious little water to sparge with.

I don't think you can necessarily calculate it so that you add boiling water for a mash out, and then have your first run off be 1/2 the preboil volume. That would be a special case with a very low gravity beer (ie small grain bill).

+1 to this. When I did mash-out I always used boiling water to minimize the volume.

 

[HawkATP]

I use a 10 gallon rubbermaid for my mash tun and don't have any extra room for a mash out when I do my 10 gallon batches. If I had extra room I may consider it, but I get efficiencies in the high 70s and am happy with that.

 

[mgortel]

As I mentioned, I don't see any advantage at all to a mashout in a batch sparge, if you're doing two rounds of batch sparging. The mashout addition basically IS the first round of batch sparging.

But if you insist on trying a mash out (and why not?!?), your procedure will work. I'd still rather see two rounds of batch sparging, but I know Denny Conn describes his batch sparge technique just as you're planning.

This is the conclusion I came to while trying to educagte myself on this......for my first all grain brew session.....thus, the posting.

SO perhaps I should try a double batch sparge....

So I would drain my mash....then do (2) batch sparges in addition to first draining to get to my target pre-boil volume?

 

[Yooper]

This is the conclusion I came to while trying to educagte myself on this......for my first all grain brew session.....thus, the posting.

SO perhaps I should try a double batch sparge....

So I would drain my mash....then do (2) batch sparges in addition to first draining to get to my target pre-boil volume?

Yes.

Drain the MLT after the mash and measure the runnings. You can start them on to boil if your BK is right there, otherwise it's fine to wait a bit for more runnings.

Once you measure your first runnings, you know how far you are from your boil volume, that's why I suggest doing it that way the first few times.

Say you need 4.5 gallons more to get to your boil volume. Then, you just add 2.25 gallons to the MLT (and you can make it about 180 degrees, so you bring up your grain bed to 168-170) and stir like crazy. Vorlauf (recirculate) a quart or two, drain. Do it again, with 170 degree water the second time. If you heat the sparge water to 180, turn off the heat and add the first addition, by the time you're ready to add the second addition, it should be right about at 170. Once again, stir like it's your job then vorlauf and drain. This whole process will take less than 20 minutes. I like to start my wort onto boil once I have the first runnings in the pot- it brings it to a boil faster.