Hey all, all grain newbie and was just wondering how important the mash out is.The first 2 beers I made were great and I did not do a mash out. The beers since then I have mashed out and they are not quite as good, o.g. numbers are not what they should be either.Any thoughts?
Mash out necessary or not?
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Mash out is not necessary if you use enough malt to get the desired gravity in the kettle. However, you leave a lot of fermentables behind as a result. If you are mashing out too hot or using too much sparge water you may be getting tannins in the wort from the malt husks. What is the temp of your sparge water and the mash during mash out and sparging?
fwiw, the intent of the mash-out is to denature enzymes and is associated with fly-sparging - that can take over an hour if done in a classic manner. Without the denature step the enzymes would be chomping for the entire time, which could result in a thinner than desired brew.
For batch sparging it really isn't necessary as there's not much delay between mixing in the sparge liquor and draining into the boil kettle where the wort temperature can be raised in short order...
Cheers!
For batch sparging it really isn't necessary as there's not much delay between mixing in the sparge liquor and draining into the boil kettle where the wort temperature can be raised in short order...
Cheers!
What did you do differently with the first two beers compared to the later beers? Did you sparge at all?
ChelisHubby
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I dont see what is the advantage of the mash out. Why not continue to sparge at 155 or whatever till you get your volume. Is it just to control the yield of the grain?
disregard my post too many beers and I batch sparge. tho I am still confused.
disregard my post too many beers and I batch sparge. tho I am still confused.
JMO, mashing out when home-brewing is a carryover from commercial brewing where the sparge process takes a lot longer and the wort profile can change as the mash rest is actually extended considerably. If mashing out increases your efficiency, you may have a marginal crush and needed to mash longer. The purpose of mashing out is not to increase efficiency, it is to denature the enzymes stopping conversion and fix the wort profile.
If batch sparging, put heat on the first runnings and sparge with hot water to raise the grain bed temp and you have mashed out.
If you fly sparge for an hour, go ahead and mashout if inclined.
I don't feel mashing out is relevant for most homebrewers, not for batch sparging or BIAB.
Hell, some folks are mashing overnight with good results, go figure.
Try it if you like, but I would not bother for at least the first few batches until you have a kettle experience.
I always mash out the wort only after I lauter, I find it easier, lol cheers
If batch sparging, put heat on the first runnings and sparge with hot water to raise the grain bed temp and you have mashed out.
If you fly sparge for an hour, go ahead and mashout if inclined.
I don't feel mashing out is relevant for most homebrewers, not for batch sparging or BIAB.
Hell, some folks are mashing overnight with good results, go figure.
Try it if you like, but I would not bother for at least the first few batches until you have a kettle experience.
I always mash out the wort only after I lauter, I find it easier, lol cheers
You really aren't giving us enough information to make good recommendations.
1. Are you fly sparging or batch sparging?
2. Numbers are not what they are supposed to be. What are the numbers and what should they be?
3. Who milled the grains?
4. How long did you mash for?
5. How long did the sparge take?
chickypad
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So I think you are saying you get slightly lower efficiency when batch sparging compared to when you fly sparge. 4 pts isn't too bad but a couple things to check. When batch sparging you really need to stir well - so after draining your first runnings, dump your sparge in and stir the crap out of it. Also you don't want to overshoot your volumes, if you leave sparge water behind in the tun it will hurt your efficiency. So either use a calculator to figure your exact sparge water, or measure your first runnings and only add enough sparge to get to your boil volume. Lastly you don't need to take 40 min to batch sparge, that's one of the advantages. After stirring really well (+/- vorlauf) then just let it rip wide open.
As far as your batches not being as good, what other problems are you seeing? Batch sparging for a little lower OG would not explain your beers going from great to not so good.
Assuming one allows full conversion prior to starting the run-off and sparge process, I'd be surprised if dragging out the duration of a batch sparge conveys any extract improvement, as all that is being accomplished is simply draining the dilution. It's not going to get any richer in sugars with added time.
Otoh, if the conversion wasn't complete, there'd be an improvement with an extended sparge - but then the quality of the first runnings would be suspect...
Cheers!
Otoh, if the conversion wasn't complete, there'd be an improvement with an extended sparge - but then the quality of the first runnings would be suspect...
Cheers!
Assuming you're doing a 3 vessel gas fired system, you could mash in your BK, using the burner to hold or step the mash temp. Then when you're done you can scoop to a cooler lauter tun, then start your vorlauf.
My first AG beers were all in a cooler MLT and i couldn't mash out due to volume limitations. Best solution i could come up with was to over heat the sparge water (about 190F) and as soon as i had an inch of wort in the kettle i'd fire up the burner. The hot sparge water would raise the grain bed temp a little and the real 'mash out' was done in the BK. I'd run off quick if doing this method... like drain the whole thing in 10-15 minutes. Most of those beers were on the drier side (80%+ AA)
Now that i've got a bling system with RIMS I can hold mash temps to less than a degree and as a consequence i can make a beer with any mash profile. Its actually pretty easy to make a beer with a 70% AA using this method.
So no its not strictly required, but its hard to make a richer fuller bodied beer without it.
My first AG beers were all in a cooler MLT and i couldn't mash out due to volume limitations. Best solution i could come up with was to over heat the sparge water (about 190F) and as soon as i had an inch of wort in the kettle i'd fire up the burner. The hot sparge water would raise the grain bed temp a little and the real 'mash out' was done in the BK. I'd run off quick if doing this method... like drain the whole thing in 10-15 minutes. Most of those beers were on the drier side (80%+ AA)
Now that i've got a bling system with RIMS I can hold mash temps to less than a degree and as a consequence i can make a beer with any mash profile. Its actually pretty easy to make a beer with a 70% AA using this method.
So no its not strictly required, but its hard to make a richer fuller bodied beer without it.
this^^^^^
I have tested this dozens of times. There is no advantage to a slow batch sparge.
Then you need to adjust the recipe for your system efficiency.
bobtheUKbrewer2
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I rarely mash out. once I have half a gallon of runnings they are placed in boiler at full power, with more runnings added frequently. When I have mashed out I noticed no difference in the beer when I scientifically evaluated it in the only way I know how......
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Yep....what he said.
If you are using Beersmith, maybe try what I do. I do a hybrid sparge(discussed in this site....somewhere). I use use beersmith software to calculate the amount of BOILING water I need to add to my mash tun to get it to 170* for a mash out. I then use that boiling water to start my sparge.
(DO NOT STIR YOUR MASH TUN BEFORE VORLOF. It actually complicates things.) When the boiling water is gone, I then use proper amount of 170* water to finish my sparge. I gained 3 points in eff by doing this, and reduced the amount of stuck sparges dramatically. The wort is crystal clear by the end of the sparge, and my total eff number averages 83%...which is pretty good.
You will read/hear a lot about tannins. In the 4/5 years I have brewed, I have yet to taste them, as you really have to go overboard to start getting them. It sounds like your being pretty careful as it is...so nothing to worry about there.
bobtheUKbrewer2
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Fly sparging
Because the buffering power of the grains in the mashtun is continually being diluted by the sparge water, it’s necessary to monitor the pH of the runoff. Too high a pH will cause the extraction of tannins and polyphenols, compromising the quality of the beer. To counteract this, it is often necessary to acidify the sparge water to keep the pH of the runoff below 6.
Batch sparging
The advantages of batch sparging are no (or reduced) worries about pH because you’re not continually diluting the buffering power of the grains.
Am I missing something here ? A point will be reached where there is virtually no sugar left in the grain so surely tannin extraction will happen ?
what does "diluting the buffering power of the grains " mean ?
thanks
Because the buffering power of the grains in the mashtun is continually being diluted by the sparge water, it’s necessary to monitor the pH of the runoff. Too high a pH will cause the extraction of tannins and polyphenols, compromising the quality of the beer. To counteract this, it is often necessary to acidify the sparge water to keep the pH of the runoff below 6.
Batch sparging
The advantages of batch sparging are no (or reduced) worries about pH because you’re not continually diluting the buffering power of the grains.
Am I missing something here ? A point will be reached where there is virtually no sugar left in the grain so surely tannin extraction will happen ?
what does "diluting the buffering power of the grains " mean ?
thanks
It's not the sugars in the grain per se, it's that they serve as an indicator of rising pH, which is the real issue in tannin extraction. The grain has a natural tendency to buffer pH. The darker the grain, the more it will pull down the pH. At some point, the grain runs out, or has a greatly reduced ability, to do that. In fly sparging, you are continually diluting that buffering power as you sparge. In batch sparging, because you're draining, not rinsing, it's much more difficult to "use up" that buffering power. Not impossible, of course, but you'd have to sparge beyond what would be a normal batch sparge. That's one of the reasons I advise people not to do multiple batch sparges.
TBC27
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Denny, am I interpreting your example correctly on your write up that the volume of sparge water you add to the mash does NOT need to take grain absorption into account?
I've been low on my SG and OG for each of my first 6 brews. I have been fly sparging and typically end up with LOTS of left over water in my MT by the time I get to my preboil volume and I think this might be my issue. Batch sparging seems more exact as far as the math goes to determine total water needed on brew day. I'm interested in trying this to see how that changes my efficiency.
I also have pleaded with my LHBS to alter their grain mill lower than .4 but they refuse. My last two batches I ran my grain through the mill twice.
I think these two areas are where improvement can easily occur. Thoughts?
Low pre-boil SG with fly sparging is usually associated with poor crush and/or channeling.
Based on my own experiences dialing in my grain mill - while acknowledging that roller knurling patterns matter - a 0.040 mill gap setting is going to land in the 65% extract efficiency range on a good day.
Add some significant channeling during the fly sparge and you could end up significantly short on sugar...
Cheers!
Based on my own experiences dialing in my grain mill - while acknowledging that roller knurling patterns matter - a 0.040 mill gap setting is going to land in the 65% extract efficiency range on a good day.
Add some significant channeling during the fly sparge and you could end up significantly short on sugar...
Cheers!
TBC27
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Thanks for the reply. My recipes have been constructed with 72-75% efficiency assumed. I'll have to decrease that and add to my grain bill.
Mash out does make the runnings a bit thinner which helps with the overall lauter. There is a sound reason why mash outs exist. You can get away without doing one as well as a lot of things in homebrewing. But how hard is it to heat your sparge water to 170f? You do not save much by not doing one either.
Danny's site is where I learned how to batch sparge and it is quite easy. Mash, add a few gallons at 170f, stir, vorlauf & drain. Then add the rest of the sparge water at 170, stir, vorlauf & drain. You can even drain pretty much wide open as long as your lautering device holds up with clear wort.
I do a modified batch/fly sparge that was named "superfly" over on HBD. It is the first half of the batch sparge but when I drain I continue to add the sparge water. So it is like a single batch sparge that never ends.
Danny's site is where I learned how to batch sparge and it is quite easy. Mash, add a few gallons at 170f, stir, vorlauf & drain. Then add the rest of the sparge water at 170, stir, vorlauf & drain. You can even drain pretty much wide open as long as your lautering device holds up with clear wort.
I do a modified batch/fly sparge that was named "superfly" over on HBD. It is the first half of the batch sparge but when I drain I continue to add the sparge water. So it is like a single batch sparge that never ends.
Since your grains are already saturated with the water from the mash, they will not absorb more during sparge.
Any water (wort) left in the mash tun is a loss of sugars that contribute to the overall efficiency. If you batch sparge and have dead space (usually unavoidable but can be minimized) you also leave sugars behind.
If you want to increase the efficiency and consistency you need your own mill. It's the only way you will have control over the crush. Mills do not need to be expensive to achieve this but you will sacrifice speed with the cheaper mill. I use a Corona mill and get great efficiency with it but to achieve that I also use a bag for the filter instead of depending on the grain husks and a false bottom or braid. That bag allows me to mill my grains very fine which gets me very high efficiency and also allow for a shorter mash.
There is so little difference in efficiency using cold water instead of hot that having a HLT is a questionable savings. The difference is mainly in how long it takes to bring the wort to a boil.:rockin:
bobtheUKbrewer2
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I use a copper manifold with slots on the bottom wrapped in a medium muslin bag. This allows a good run off rate of very clear wort, which as I mentioned earlier is put into the boiler every few pints. I had never thought of grains being "saturated" with sugar solution yet this is "locked" in the grain. Will ponder further......
I was thinking more along the lines of stuck sparges. Probably does not come into play with IPAs etc... but might with wheat beers or other gummy mashes.
That is correct. After the mash, the grain is saturated and will absorb no more water. What goes in is what comes out, minus any losses in your equipment. Crush is always the first place to look for efficiency problems. When you fly sparge, unless your lauter system is perfectly designed, you can get "channeling", where the water kinda drills ls down in one place and grain in other places doesn't get rinsed pH can have an effect, too, but you have to be WAY off for it to have anything other than a minor effect on efficiency.
Actually, it doesn't really until your wort gravity goes above 1.300.
If you get an efficiency boost, it's not from thinner runnings. It's becasue the higher temp increased conversion efficiency.
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I only mash out because it really doesn't add any time to my brew day. I use a HERMS coil in the HLT and circulate wort from a cooler mash tun through the coil and back to the mash tun with the HERMS PID set to my mash temp.
Since I'm going to batch sparge with the water in the HLT which will be at the same temp as if doing a mash out I just keep recirculating through the HERMS coil while the mash temp is raised to a couple degrees under 170 on the HERMS PID.
When the mash temp gets to the set temp I empty the mash tun to the boiler and immediately batch sparge with HLT water which is right at the temp I want, usually doing two equal sized batch sparges. Easy peasy and my efficiencies are typically between 75 and 80%.
Since I'm going to batch sparge with the water in the HLT which will be at the same temp as if doing a mash out I just keep recirculating through the HERMS coil while the mash temp is raised to a couple degrees under 170 on the HERMS PID.
When the mash temp gets to the set temp I empty the mash tun to the boiler and immediately batch sparge with HLT water which is right at the temp I want, usually doing two equal sized batch sparges. Easy peasy and my efficiencies are typically between 75 and 80%.
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