Maris Otter s-04 almost smash ideas?

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rtstrider

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I have moved on up to an indoor BIAB setup and am working on learning the different tastes of grains, hops, yeast. I just brewed a very simple blonde which will give a good idea of pale 2 row and cascade hops. While that's fermenting I'd like to get started on an english-ish batch. Here's an idea I've been toying with

9lb maris otter
1lb caramel 40 (for head retention mainly)

East Kent Goldings hops with the following additions

.5oz 60min
.5oz 30min
.5oz 15min
.5oz 5min

Would be fermented in the 66ish range with S-04. Right now I'm just using dry yeasts to keep it cheap, simple, and so I do not have to work up a starter. Any input would be greatly appreciated! Will be brewing on Sunday :)

Edit: Forgot to mention this would be for a 5 gallon batch, mash would be 1 hour at 150F, boil size would be 6 gallons because that's all I can fit in the pots without having to worry about boil over.
 
Since EKG is on the lower AA side I might up the amounts to an ounce...get yourself into the 35-40 IBU range

You can really try any hop but I personally like willamette.
 
Looks pretty good to me. I brew an ESB using Maris Otter and a pound of Crystal 60L, along with 1 oz of Northern Brewer at 60 minutes (9.6 percent alpha acids) and 2 oz of EGK at 5 minutes.

I also use S-04. Typically I ferment just a shade cooler at 64, but 66 should be fine.
 
9lb maris otter
1lb caramel 40 (for head retention mainly)

East Kent Goldings hops with the following additions

.5oz 60min
.5oz 30min
.5oz 15min
.5oz 5min

As a style it's all about balance and sessionability. 40IBU is a bit on the high side - I'd aim for 30-35 IBU. However you need to bear in mind that at this time of year, your hops will have lost a lot of alpha. Depending on how they've been stored the EKG could have lost anything from 30% to 60% of their alpha compared to fresh - and their aromatics will probably tell a similar story. They're not as bad as varieties like Cascade, but they don't keep particularly well. So you need to allow for that, even though it's a bit of a crapshoot guessing how they've been stored unless you've kept them since harvest.

It's also worth bearing in mind that British hops show significant vintage variation, unlike hops grown in irrigated desert like Yakima. 2016 was a pretty poor vintage, particularly in East Kent, whereas 2015 was a great vintage. Unfortunately it's barely worth the extra year of storage - I guess if you really want to see what EKG is really about, you might want to wait until the new harvest in a few weeks time.

However, that doesn't really help you now. If you wanted something British, then something from last year's crop in Herefordshire would probably be better than Kent, but few hop merchants even in the UK go to that amount of detail (except for Goldings). But something like Challenger is a classic and widely grown, I've got a packet of Bramling Cross waiting for a single-hop bitter. BX is possibly my favourite English hop, and it's a bit less subtle than some so may suit US tastes, without exactly being shouty. A more left-field option is Flyer, which is a new hop that is probably more suited to darker beers, it's on my list to try.

I'm trying to do more single-ish hop beers myself to learn my way round their flavours, since we normally get them in 100g packs here I'm tending towards 20IBU of something else to bitter at 60 min, and then use the whole pack of test hop split 40-20-40 at 5-min, whirlpool, dry-hop. Or something like that, I haven't quite settled on it yet. Doing a more complicated schedule like yours will undoubtedly produce a more complex beer, but for these purposes a simple schedule is good enough - and I'm more likely to do it consistently between batches! :) I do think you want to be adding significant amounts on the cool side, either in whirlpool or dry hopping, to see what aroma compounds are there in your hop.

A classic English bitter these days would probably be Maris Otter with mebbe 5-8% crystal 80 for sweetness and 2-5% torrified wheat for head. But if the caramel 40 is what you can get then no worries -I can understand wanting to keep things fairly simple and similar across different beers. I'd probably mash a wee bit warmer, maybe 153F to maximise long-chain dextrins.

Do you know what your water profile looks like? I wouldn't go for the full Burton, but half a teaspoon of gypsum wouldn't hurt.

If boilovers are a problem, you need some simet(h)icone - FermCap or a variety of stomach gas medicines.

And obviously don't overdo the carbonation - 1.5-2 volumes CO2 is plenty, and serve at 55F rather than fridge cold.
 
Thanks for the information Northern Brewer! The LHBS carries ych hop pellets so that's what I'll be using. As far as water I'll be using great value spring water from walmart. Wife is grabbing the ingredients from the LHBS today and I'll be brewing this tomorrow morning :) I'm going to read up on the torified wheat though. I do not have access to crystal 80 but I can get crystal 60 or 90. I'm probably going to go with the 60. I'll mash at 153 per your recommendation.
 
I use 200g torrified for head retention (although I'm sure there is something better I could be doing)

I've an S-04 yeast cake I keep re-using - on 4th use now and still fine (if you want to keep costs down)

with Maris I've found it a bit malty for doing single hops - so I've started substituting with some Pils - I'm not sure it's a solution yet - as only just starting to drink the batches I've done that on - but they are much clearer

Northern Brewer - I'm using the 100g packs too - I sometimes use 30-50g of something cheap to bitter and then use the 100g near the end of the boil (dry hopping it too much of a pain in carboys) so not completely smash - Saas and Sticklebract have worked out well so far this way - Amarillo less so

I've got my first EKG single in a primary at the moment - looking forward to it as most of the early brews I did were with US hops
 
Definitely a nube question but why do you need to add C40 for head retention? Ive only done a few AG brews and my all MO pale ale is my favorite so far with no head issues.
 
It's easy to get carried away with tweaking the grain bill to make the perfect beer, but let's not forget rtstrider's original requirement :

learning the different tastes of grains, hops, yeast.

So as long as the beer is drinkable, I would over-complicate it, in fact overcomplicating will take away from the main aim which is to show off the differences between different ingredients. For me a 4-4.5% 100% Maris Otter beer with say 30IBU is more than merely drinkable - it's the kind of beer I normally choose to drink down the pub. @65C makes a good point that some pils malt in the mix would make the differences under test more obvious.

I can only counter that by saying that I always have a sack of Maris Otter in the garage, so if I make that my standard, I won't deviate from it just because I'm out of stock of an ingredient. And more tenuously I'll be using MO in any "real" beer I make so I might as well see what the hops taste like with it.

But any other grist additions seem like unnecessary complications. Fair enough, adding a bit of crystal if you just fancy a brown beer - I will probably do the same for my BX beer, but then I would probably only use BX in brown beer. But I wouldn't bother with things like torrified wheat, it's just unnecessary complication at this stage. It's not like you get no head without it, and you can just pretend that you're brewing a southern English bitter to be served from cask without a sparkler....

Same with pH - just adjust it directly with acid/alkali rather than messing about with the grist.

It's hard I know, but KISS is a wonderful thing....
 
I sometimes use 30-50g of something cheap to bitter and then use the 100g near the end of the boil (dry hopping it too much of a pain in carboys) so not completely smash - Saas and Sticklebract have worked out well so far this way - Amarillo less so

I've got my first EKG single in a primary at the moment - looking forward to it as most of the early brews I did were with US hops

Wow, sounds like you're going for a lot more bitterness than me, as I say I chuck in 20-25 IBU at the start and then let the late additions contribute a little more, but I don't want to overwhelm the test hops.

Surprised Amarillo didn't work for you, the latest versions of my house pale have been playing around with Amarillo/Cascade blends and have worked pretty well, although still lacking something - might need some Chinook in there, or replace Amarillo with Simcoe or something.
 
Surprised Amarillo didn't work for you, the latest versions of my house pale have been playing around with Amarillo/Cascade blends and have worked pretty well

I think that was the problem - I single hopped the Amarillo and it came out a little to earthy - coupled with the heavy bittering I used it wasn't a great beer - drinkable but not enjoyable - someone else mentioned I should have used Cascade with it

I'm winding the bittering back a bit on all my brews at the moment - I've been enjoying making brews that were a lot more bitter than commercially available - but it looks like that maybe was just a phase - I'm brewing a kind of Porter today then having a go at one of those northern German Alt-Bier type recipes next week - both with more moderate bittering
 
I think that was the problem - I single hopped the Amarillo and it came out a little to earthy - coupled with the heavy bittering I used it wasn't a great beer - drinkable but not enjoyable - someone else mentioned I should have used Cascade with it

To be fair, you're brewing Amarillo with one hand behind your back if you're not using it cold-side, most of its goodness is in the delicate aroma molecules that get driven off in the kettle. Surely you could dry hop with pellets in your carboys?

Good luck with the porter - a cult favourite here is Titanic plum porter, which has spawned a bit of a sub-category of porters with sweet & fruity additions from port to damsons. It's that time of year...?
 
Ha, my wife came back from a friends with several kilos (a carrier bag full) of plums last night - I've spent half the morning reading up on it - but I'm low on dark beer at moment, so reluctant to make a risky change to this brew - I'm already using oats for first time with a lower bittering than usual - I might pick up another carboy next week and do a brew just for the fruit - thanks
 
Ha, my wife came back from a friends with several kilos (a carrier bag full) of plums last night - I've spent half the morning reading up on it - but I'm low on dark beer at moment, so reluctant to make a risky change to this brew - I'm already using oats for first time with a lower bittering than usual - I might pick up another carboy next week and do a brew just for the fruit - thanks

She can read my mind from thousands of miles away? Now that's my kinda gal... ;) A slightly softer mouthfeel with a bit less alpha sounds a perfect platform for showing off the fruit of the plums. These days I hardly ever ferment 5 gallons of wort in a single FV, I'm always playing around with different yeast, dry hop schedules and other additions. Not least because I get bored drinking 40 bottles of exactly the same beer! So I'd be tempted to divert a bit of the current batch into a plum experiment - I've never really investigated whether you want to add at flameout or in the fermenter, have you got a spare vessel of some kind that you could put a gallon or so of wort into with some plums/plum-puree/plum-juice/all-of-the-above ? I think Titanic mostly add it as a cooked puree, which obviously has the advantage that they can freeze it or can it for year-round use.
 
I brewed mongooses recipe yesterday. Took a whiff of the northern brewer and ek goldings. Both smelled earth more than anything else. Didn't notice much difference outside that. Anywho I ended up with an og of 1.056 and am using s-04 yeast. I rehydrated the yeast, cooled the wort to around 72f and pitched it. Was getting airlock activity 6 hours later and a Krausen was already forming. I've heard this yeast was fast but I didn't believe it was that fast lol! Anywho Ive never had an esb so I picked up the Iron Maiden beer last night. Anywho it's time to swap out the ice in the fermenter...
 
I've heard this yeast was fast but I didn't believe it was that fast lol!

I've had some real problems with that yeast - it did produce one of my best ever beers but outside of that it's been a menace

I'll do a new thread on the plums -
a load got used for pancake topping and a massive plum tart today but I'm sure there will be more

You're right on the extra fermenters and experiments - it's my next project - I've often got some good runnings left on the mashes and it's a waste to bin it
 
I brewed mongooses recipe yesterday. Took a whiff of the northern brewer and ek goldings. Both smelled earth more than anything else. Didn't notice much difference outside that. Anywho I ended up with an og of 1.056 and am using s-04 yeast. I rehydrated the yeast, cooled the wort to around 72f and pitched it. Was getting airlock activity 6 hours later and a Krausen was already forming. I've heard this yeast was fast but I didn't believe it was that fast lol! Anywho Ive never had an esb so I picked up the Iron Maiden beer last night. Anywho it's time to swap out the ice in the fermenter...

Fast? Yeah. Like SR-71 Blackbird fast. Or quick. Like a bunny quick.

I've had some real problems with that yeast - it did produce one of my best ever beers but outside of that it's been a menace

I've used this yeast a lot and it's never given me trouble. I wonder if there are significant differences in the temperatures people use to ferment this yeast. I'm always doing it about 63 or 64, and while it's still fast at that temp, I've never experienced any off flavors or other difficulties with it.

What kind of problems did it have for you?
 
What kind of problems did it have for you?

the biggest one was a room temp ferment (about 19C) that sounded like an outboard motor for a week or more - the blowoff tube was like a hair dryer - it was baffling how 23L could produce that volume of yeast gas - after that I got a fridge and I now brew cooler for first week - I've just found S-04 a bit unruly

I use US-05 quite a bit and 1187 Ringwood without any issue - when anything goes a bit wrong it's the S-04 every time - but I brewed a Porter with it once (actually drinking one of the last ones tonight) and it was a spectacularly good brew
 
btw - that S-04 hairdryer brew which was full of esters - barely drinkable - ended up being a damn fine brew after a few weeks in the bottle
 
the biggest one was a room temp ferment (about 19C) that sounded like an outboard motor for a week or more - the blowoff tube was like a hair dryer - it was baffling how 23L could produce that volume of yeast gas - after that I got a fridge and I now brew cooler for first week - I've just found S-04 a bit unruly

I use US-05 quite a bit and 1187 Ringwood without any issue - when anything goes a bit wrong it's the S-04 every time - but I brewed a Porter with it once (actually drinking one of the last ones tonight) and it was a spectacularly good brew

btw - that S-04 hairdryer brew which was full of esters - barely drinkable - ended up being a damn fine brew after a few weeks in the bottle

Yeah, I think you really need to control temp with that at 65 or even a bit lower. The exothermic action of yeast which produces heat would have added 5-10 degrees to the wort temp, which is...not good.

I've got a 2112 (California Lager Yeast) Cal Common batch going right now--it's at 64 degrees and I've never had something go this fast. Nothing even close.

I probably did the starter better than I ever have--oxygenated the starter wort w/ an O2 wand, and pitched the starter directly into the wort, no crashing and decanting, so it was going to town early. Oxygenated the wort, too, so I suspect I have a real burner of a batch.

Don't know if this would make a difference, but this is the first batch using Brewtan-B. I just can't wait for this thing to finish.

Here's the very short video showing what's happening:

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ox5gL73DKIw&spfreload=10[/ame]

And a more "panoramic" view of the ferm chamber:

krausencatcher2.jpg
 
Racked this to the secondary last night and will let sit for 2 weeks then bottling time. The reviews I've read on s-04 about it dropping like a brick are no joke! I noticed I had about a quarter gallon more trub in the primary this batch than the other. So out of a 5 gallon batch I'll have 4.25 gallons of beer. The only thing is I'm not sure if I want a flat-ish beer so I'll probably prime to 2.4 volumes come bottling day.
 
The only thing is I'm not sure if I want a flat-ish beer so I'll probably prime to 2.4 volumes come bottling day.

Please don't - overcarbing British styles is as weird as not carbing lager. Ditto with serving termperatures. I'm not sure of the science of it but it's probably that the extra carbonic acid changes the flavour of the liquid and the extra gas whisks away the volatile aromas. Trust me on this one.:)
 
Hey Northern Brewer is1.3 levels of co2 ok? I had the iron maiden trooper beer last night and it seemed kinda light
 
I know that's the limit of the BJCP guidelines, personally I'd go a bit higher for a bottle (maybe 1.6?) and a bit lower for a keg. It does depend quite a bit on the style of beer though - acidity, sweetness, hoppiness, carbonation is just another factor that you've got to dial in just like your grist mix. Some can take up to 2 vol, but that's not typical.

Temperature is the other key one - although you may see reference to 55F as the ideal, I'd go for very slightly colder from a bottle, say 51F or so. Then you get that archetypal English beer moment. You come back from the bar, say "Cheers" and start the usual pub conversation - and then after a while you take a little time-out from the conversation. The beer has just dropped below the bulge in your nonic glass and you realise it's just warmed up enough to be giving you all sorts of new aromas and flavours - and you're really glad that there's another 3/4 of a pint to go. And then it's back to talking about the football or whatever.

A lack of gassiness is part of what makes British beer so sessionable although you only appreciate it after a couple of beers, it's those extended sessions getting somewhat but not stupidly drunk that makes for the best pub conversations. On Saturday I ended up in a pub with two complete strangers and we ranged from the prospects for the town team's under-23's to the philosophy of art and the different versions of the Magna Carta. I only had two pints as I was driving but that was a proper pub session.....
 

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