malt grind/crush

[MikEH86]

I have the means to grind my barely to flour consistency I understand that you don't want the hull to be ground to fine due to tannin and probably some other things. if you could crack the grain and then sift off the husk off why would you not then want to grind the grain to dust? to me this would yield great for steeping there must be a different reason. unless the grain can form a source of bittering its self

while on this subject what is a good grind/crush each kernel broken in 3's? or finer yet?

I am one step away from starting my first brew and this question has been lingering in my mind for a long time and cant seem to find anything on the internet.

 

[charliethebum]

Tannins aside, you want the hull intact to act as a filter/ avoid compacting your grain bed and getting a stuck sparge. For steeping I can't see a downside to what you're talking about other than unnecessary effort to sift the hulls out

 

[Jayjay1976]

You definitely do not need flour to ensure a thorough conversion, and it may even hurt your efficiency.

Do you brew in a bag? Set your mill gap to the thickness of a credit card. If you use a mash tun you will probably want a coarser crush than that to avoid a stuck sparge. The husk material forms a filter bed during lautering and also prevents the starch granules from forming into sticky clumps, so you do want husks in the mash.

I brewed dozens of batches (I brew in a bag) with my mill set much too fine, like *maybe* the thickness of a business card, and ground up particles of husk would end up in the bottom of my fermenter and eventually in my bottled beers. The result was a persistent woody, earthy, hay-like, bitter off flavor in many of my batches. I wish it didn't take me so long to identify the problem and correct it. My last two batches were much clearer coming out of the kettle and there is less trub in the fermenters, and I haven't noticed any decrease in mash efficiency whatsoever. When these are carbed up and ready to taste I will drop in to confirm the off-flavor is gone. Don't crush too fine.

 

[IslandLizard]

to me this would yield great for steeping

In all grain brewing we're not steeping, we're mashing. There's a small but important difference:

• In steeping we want to extract sugars, color, and flavor, like a tea bag. There's no starch conversion, generally.
• In mashing we want to convert starches to sugars. We also extract sugars, flavor and color due to the process.

Milling to dust is not advantageous, but when using the BIAB method of mashing, you can mill rather fine, as the bag is a fine mesh filter. There are still limits as to how fine you can mill before everything plugs up like a sack of wet cement.

 

[IslandLizard]

For BIAB mashing, you can set your mill to a 0.025" gap and start there.
0.025" is thinner than a regular credit card.

American Express loved BIAB homebrewers and used to send thin "cards" in their junk mail. They set the right 0.025" gap and were made just for this purpose.

 

[Wayne1]

One of the best explanations of mill gap settings is from MoreBeer:
https://www.morebeer.com/articles/crushin_it

As stated in the above article, it all depends on what you are mashing in.

Using a separate mash tun with a false bottom will require a different mill setting than a single vessel with a mash pipe, which will be different than a BIAB.

 

[Nate R]

One of the best explanations of mill gap settings is from MoreBeer:
https://www.morebeer.com/articles/crushin_it

As stated in the above article, it all depends on what you are mashing in.

Using a separate mash tun with a false bottom will require a different mill setting than a single vessel with a mash pipe, which will be different than a BIAB.

And yet they constantly get the worst reviews here on their own crush!!!
Lol.
I love more beer, but before i had a mill i didnt know any better....

Good link!

 

[RM-MN]

I understand that you don't want the hull to be ground to fine due to tannin

You don't get tannins from grinding the husk, you get tannin extraction from having too high of pH and too high temperature. It requires both to extract tannin so just having one of the factors isn't critical.

I brewed dozens of batches (I brew in a bag) with my mill set much too fine, like *maybe* the thickness of a business card, and ground up particles of husk would end up in the bottom of my fermenter and eventually in my bottled beers.

I think you had a poor bag. I have my Corona mill set as tight as I can and don't have that problem. Maybe I'm hurting my efficiency with milling so fine but I'll just lament only getting 90% plus efficiency with my milling so fine.

 

[Jayjay1976]

You don't get tannins from grinding the husk, you get tannin extraction from having too high of pH and too high temperature. It requires both to extract tannin so just having one of the factors isn't critical.



I think you had a poor bag. I have my Corona mill set as tight as I can and don't have that problem. Maybe I'm hurting my efficiency with milling so fine but I'll just lament only getting 90% plus efficiency with my milling so fine.

I brew in a USA made, top-quality Wilser bag, sir.

 

[Jayjay1976]

Couple of factors that might cause the husk dust I've been getting:
1. mill gap too tight
2. knurled rollers
3. using a cordless drill, maybe running it at too high a speed. I understand that ~300 RPM is a good speed.

I can imagine some husks getting shredded as the rollers spin, the excessively small gap causes some grinding to occur to the grains before they crack. Either way, the wort from my last two batches was much clearer than previous batches. Only a taste of the finished product will tell whether this is the issue that has dogged so many of my beers.

 

[IslandLizard]

I understand that ~300 RPM is a good speed.

150-200 rpm is a better target for 1.5" rollers.

 

[Jayjay1976]

150-200 rpm is a better target for 1.5" rollers.

Thanks for that! Is there a cheap/simple/mechanical way to rig up a tachometer? I hoped to find something on Amazon but so far no luck. Maybe there is something made for bicycles or something, I just don't know what to search for. I would hate to go to a digital tach, seems like overkill.

 

[IslandLizard]

Thanks for that! Is there a cheap/simple/mechanical way to rig up a tachometer? I hoped to find something on Amazon but so far no luck. Maybe there is something made for bicycles or something, I just don't know what to search for. I would hate to go to a digital tach, seems like overkill.

I've been wondering about that too.
I mostly listen to the groaning of the drill as a reference of speed. That's as scientific as it gets here with that.

Now the drill has 550 rpm max, so running it at around 1/3 of that (~180 rpm) is not that hard to gauge. I have a mark on the chuck to count the rpm with a stopwatch in hand. It's just about doable at that speed for about 20-30 revs before the eyes start to twitch.

Record a 10-20 second movie and playback in slow motion to count the mark?
Isn't there a cellphone app yet?

 

[camonick]

Thanks for that! Is there a cheap/simple/mechanical way to rig up a tachometer? I hoped to find something on Amazon but so far no luck. Maybe there is something made for bicycles or something, I just don't know what to search for. I would hate to go to a digital tach, seems like overkill.

https://www.amazon.com/Tachometer-Protmex-Measurement-50-19999RPM-Backlight/dp/B01F7AA20K

 

[day_trippr]

That is cool - I had no idea such things existed. One of my hobbies is nitromethane powered RC flight and we use optical tachs for tuning engines.

Not sure I'd want to try to hold one of those against something spinning at 20000 RPMs though

Cheers!

 

[camonick]

It has mixed reviews, but it’s 32 bucks!!

 

[keesh]

Record a 10-20 second movie and playback in slow motion to count the mark?
Isn't there a cellphone app yet?

Androids and iPhone have a slow-mo feature built in - I am trying this tomorrow. Will put the drill in good light and in front of a black t-shirt. What rpm do you recommend for 1.3" rollers? I have a pretty good idea of where my sweet spot is but I always like having numbers to reference.

https://www.amazon.com/Tachometer-Protmex-Measurement-50-19999RPM-Backlight/dp/B01F7AA20K

Want. I don't know what else I'd use it for but I still want it.

 

[bracconiere]

hmmm, i'd be curious how OP plans on removing the husks.....

 

[greyghost]

Try
Neiko 20713A Digital Tachometer, Non Contact Laser Photo
this on Amazon 22bucks works great

 

[Jayjay1976]

Want. I don't know what else I'd use it for but I still want it.

It measures shaft speed. The possibilities are endless.

Ordering one now, I'm an RC hobbyist as well and this will come in handy on my boats, cars, and planes.

 

[MikEH86]

First off, holy c*** this post really exploded lol.

I would be doing BIAB as I am just starting to move to beer brewing so I will be doing small scale stuff. Why the hard jump to all-grain right off the hope? I work at a feed mill we have really high standards for the grain, we receive barley, wheat, and corn. We test every load that comes in and there is some throwaway grain each test i have been keeping that. Malted some barley and about to do a SMaSH beer.

Great info! Thanks, everyone! Speed and gap of the mill are critical the way i am reading it the finner you go the slower the mill has to run.

I was going to say some phones have a slow-mo feature but it is not true slow-mo works great for some things but anything moving really fast and small is blurry i took a slow-mo of my father in law in the T off box golfing once, the club and elbows down was a pure blurry mess but you could see how he carried himself through the swing was pretty cool to watch. Might want to try elbrating the mark somehow. Or if your drill has the setting for torque mode over speed.

Removing husk. work has some screens id just bring a bag in and do it after work maybe. It is like a tower of like 15 screens from course to extremely fine i dono

 

[Jayjay1976]

Try
Neiko 20713A Digital Tachometer, Non Contact Laser Photo
this on Amazon 22bucks works great

We had an optical tach in the lab at work and one day a few of us tried to have a game to see who could blink the fastest. The boss walked in while we were painting marks on each other's eyelids with white-out and the game came to an abrupt end. I still wonder whether that would have worked.

 

[keesh]

I think if you try the slow-mo you'd need to accomplish a few things:

• Keep the drill chuck close and in focus
• Make sure it is well lit
• Use a dark background
• Have the phone stay steady

Anyway I am gonna try and I will report my findings and any video I might have.

 

[IslandLizard]

What rpm do you recommend for 1.3" rollers?

For grain used in brewing a linear mill speed of around 12"/sec is recommended. IIRC, I got that on a pro forum.

The circumference of a 1.3" diameter roller is:
1.3" * 3.14 = 4.082"
12 / 4.082" * 60 sec = 176 rpm

The circumference of a 1.5" diameter roller (e.g., an MM2) is:
1.5" * 3.14 = 4.71"
12 / 4.71" * 60 sec = 152 rpm

The circumference of a 2" diameter roller (e.g., an MM2 2.0) is:
2" * 3.14 = 6.28"
12 / 6.28" * 60 sec = 115 rpm

 

[MikEH86]

I think if you try the slow-mo you'd need to accomplish a few things:

• Keep the drill chuck close and in focus
• Make sure it is well lit
• Use a dark background
• Have the phone stay steady

Anyway, I am gonna try and I will report my findings and any video I might have.

Sounds like you are a photographer? Good luck! Witch phone are you using if you dont mind em asking?

EDITE: Depending on your chuck color could try painting chuck black and then a thick white line ontop of the black.

 

[IslandLizard]

Sounds like you are a photographer? Good luck! Witch phone are you using if you dont mind em asking?

EDITE: Depending on your chuck color could try painting chuck black and then a thick white line ontop of the black.

You guys are waaay overthinking this. Since that's par for the course here, please continue...

I was suggesting to record 10-20 secs (t), and simply playback in slow motion (half or quarter speed is probably sufficient) to make counting the mark passages (x) easier:

x rotations / t secs​

 

[Jayjay1976]

Sounds like you are a photographer? Good luck! Witch phone are you using if you dont mind em asking?

EDITE: Depending on your chuck color could try painting chuck black and then a thick white line ontop of the black.

I'm ordering the mechanical tach linked above and plan to strap it to the top of my drill with foam tape and zip ties, then use the contact wheel accessory against the chuck to measure the speed. This should be a hands-off way to add the tach since I'm already holding the mill down to a bucket with one hand and operating a drill with the other, plus it also positions the readout conveniently in my line of sight.

 

[MikEH86]

You guys are waaay overthinking this. Since that's par for the course here, please continue...

I was suggesting to record 10-20 secs (t), and simply playback in slow motion (half or quarter speed is probably sufficient) to make counting the mark passages (x) easier:

x rotations / t secs​

Ah yea that does sound a lot easyer lol

make sure you both let use know your findings keesh and Jayjay1976

 

[Nate R]

My plan is to spend about 2/3rd the cost of what it would cost to just buy a mill that is already set up for optimum speed....
'cause we're home-brewers, so we:
-Do it as cheap as possible the first time. Spend a few extra bucks here and there to tweak the 1st gen
-Spend a fair amount of money on getting the "extras" to measure, test, and tweak our updated 1st gen
-finally save up and break down and just buy the proper set-up as our 2nd gen, but only after we have exhausted at least as much money on the 1st gen as the proper 2nd gen costs

Lol... j/k all. It is just this darn obsession/hobby...
BUt... re-read this thread... it kinda goes off the rails at a point up there!!!
Any excuse for a new toy & gadget, right?!?!?

 

[IslandLizard]

My plan is to spend about 2/3rd the cost of what it would cost to just buy a mill that is already set up for optimum speed....
'cause we're home-brewers, so we:
-Do it as cheap as possible the first time. Spend a few extra bucks here and there to tweak the 1st gen
-Spend a fair amount of money on getting the "extras" to measure, test, and tweak our updated 1st gen
-finally save up and break down and just buy the proper set-up as our 2nd gen, but only after we have exhausted at least as much money on the 1st gen as the proper 2nd gen costs

Lol... j/k all. It is just this darn obsession/hobby...
BUt... re-read this thread... it kinda goes off the rails at a point up there!!!
Any excuse for a new toy & gadget, right?!?!?

Wow, you're catching on fast!

 

[Jayjay1976]

... re-read this thread... it kinda goes off the rails at a point up there!!!

IT WAS MEEEEEEE!

 

[bracconiere]

My plan is to spend about 2/3rd the cost of what it would cost to just buy a mill that is already set up for optimum speed....
'cause we're home-brewers, so we:
-Do it as cheap as possible the first time. Spend a few extra bucks here and there to tweak the 1st gen
-Spend a fair amount of money on getting the "extras" to measure, test, and tweak our updated 1st gen
-finally save up and break down and just buy the proper set-up as our 2nd gen, but only after we have exhausted at least as much money on the 1st gen as the proper 2nd gen costs

Lol... j/k all. It is just this darn obsession/hobby...
BUt... re-read this thread... it kinda goes off the rails at a point up there!!!
Any excuse for a new toy & gadget, right?!?!?

hmmm, i'm still using my equip from ~2002....

 

[keesh]

You guys are waaay overthinking this. Since that's par for the course here, please continue...

I was suggesting to record 10-20 secs (t), and simply playback in slow motion (half or quarter speed is probably sufficient) to make counting the mark passages (x) easier:

x rotations / t secs​

That was my plan, I was just going to set it up so the shot is clear and not blurry so the counting is easier

 

[balrog]

You guys should have already built and hooked up @LBussy 's photo interrupter bubble counter BrewBubbles and with some duct tape, dental floss and a paper clip, figured how to use that to measure rpm

Just sayin'

 

[Nate R]

hmmm, i'm still using my equip from ~2002....

You are indeed not counted with the normal group.
You sir a legend!
I learned about you before ever reading a post from you.
Anytime there is a post regarding how to get costs down, advice is given for what mosr of us could do and the savings. Then it's mentioned what you do, and how greater the savings can be!
Who knew to get malt at a feed store?? Rice hulls by the bale??
And i just ordered paid another $1.99 a pound like a sucker!!

 

[keesh]

I can't believe I just spent over an hour recording this and editing it on my phone, but here we go! It's not exact by any stretch but it was a fun experiment as a starting off point for figuring out drill speed

 

[bracconiere]

You are indeed not counted with the normal group.
You sir a legend!
I learned about you before ever reading a post from you.
Anytime there is a post regarding how to get costs down, advice is given for what mosr of us could do and the savings. Then it's mentioned what you do, and how greater the savings can be!
Who knew to get malt at a feed store?? Rice hulls by the bale??
And i just ordered paid another $1.99 a pound like a sucker!!

LOL, maybe i should change my tag line..."Trying to brew the cheapest beer possible since 2004!"

 

[MikEH86]

I can't believe I just spent over an hour recording this and editing it on my phone, but here we go! It's not exact by any stretch but it was a fun experiment as a starting off point for figuring out drill speed

It will be interesting to see how it performs under load. probably need about 1/3 power but willing to bet it will be up and down a lot.

Is anyone willing to share a pic of there grind? "To use as a reference.

 

[MikEH86]

How do you all feel about this grind? ( not using the proper mill as i am budget-restricted and just using what i have. )

 

[IslandLizard]

How do you all feel about this grind? ( not using the proper mill as i am budget-restricted and just using what i have. )

As long as there are no whole, unbroken kernels in it, that looks pretty decent!