Making a Cider starter?

[Epond83]

I just got starting on brewing, third batch is brewing now.
I'm doing 1 gal. batches of fresh pressed unpasteurized cider, using Wyeast 7466.
Since the yeast is good for 6 gal. I split it into thirds for use. I'm wondering about making a starter just to make sure the portion of yeast i'm using is ready to go.

When I get the cider I have been adding a campden tablet (Potassium Metabisulfite) about 36 hours before pitching yeast.
Then I add Pectic enzyme about 24 hours before pitching yeast.
Then at time of pitching yeast I have been adding 1tsp. per gal Urea/Diammonium Phosphate for a nutrient.

I'm thinking about pulling about 300 ml from the cider before the campden tablet goes in. Then I can bring this up to 160* for a few minutes to pasteurize.
Once cooled I can then use this as my starter. Does this need to be fully boiled to make it safe? Is 300 ml a good amount for a starter for 1 gal? Too much too little?

Can I add the yeast nutrient right at the beginning so that the portion I use for a starter is dosed? I have heard that giving the campden tablet and pectic enzyme time in between can make each work better, so I'm not sure how the nutrient plays into that.

So yeah wondering what all you all think of this since you have been doing it longer than I have!

 

[doublejef]

Lot of good question and I Don't have much answer, but I Don't think you need to make a starter for a 1gal batch. By the way, for the rest, your starter protocol seems right to me. I should boil it because it's safer, easier to do (no thermometer) and won't really impact the final taste.

If you have the opportunity of having another sample, maybe you can try to do it without campden, just pitch the yeast as soon as possible and it will probably lead the fermentation and avoid spoilage from natural bugs. After that, you can compare and see what’s best.

 

[bernardsmith]

I guess I don't understand why you need to pasteurize the juice you want to use as the starter if you don't think that there is a problem with the main body of the juice and if you DO think that there may be a problem with the starter then why aren't those same pathogens in the rest of the juice.

I ask because if you are collecting apples from an orchard and you are including apples that have lain on the ground then you really should be finding an effective way to remove e-coli and listeria. The problem is that animals such as deer and the like like the apples and crap on the fruit as they graze. Here in upstate NY where we are rich in orchards you cannot sell pressed juice without "pasteurization" but most orchards don't cook their juice. They use UV lights to kill pathogens.

Of course, if you are picking the fruit from the trees then pathogens are not a likely problem.

 

[Epond83]

Thanks for all the input, I agree a starter probably isn't needed for a 1 gal batch. I'm basically testing methods and options for hard cider to see if/when I scale up, so good to hear I have the right idea.

The cider is pressed and sold unpasteurized, I bought a half gallon for drinking and after about 2 or 3 week the plastic container expanded and got fizzy.
They seem to sell a lot of cider and I know others use it for hard cider. So i'm not too worried about bad pathogens, but wild yeast is a concern.

So by using the campden tablet on the full batch I'm killing the existing wild yeast to give the yest i'm pitching a chance. Is this necessary? Will my pitched yeast out compete the wild yeast?
The same goes for the starter, if i create a starter with this juice will the pitched yeast out compete the wild yeast?

One last note for pasteurizing/sterilizing, I have a Anova sous vide so I can set the temp to whatever like 160 and it will hold for whatever duration needed. Then I can put the stater in the water bath. I'm not sure if a full boil is better or just recommended given that for most it's easier. I like the idea of not heating it more than needed, but really it's a small portion of the batch and might not be noticeable.

 

[bernardsmith]

You might simply create a starter with a cup of spring water and a teaspoon of dry malt extract or a teaspoon of table sugar. If you are looking for nutrients to add to the table sugar I would add go-ferm per instructions. You should not add the same nutrients that you would add to active yeast in the must.

 

[Epond83]

I was thinking about DME but wasn't sure how much to use to not impart extra flavors into the cider.
Can you explain this more: "You should not add the same nutrients that you would add to active yeast in the must."

 

[bernardsmith]

I think it depends. If you are using dry yeast then the number of cells is likely to be much larger than liquid beer yeast so your starter is really to ensure that there is no lag time. If so, then a teaspoon of DME or sugar is all you need and the starter time is perhaps an hour or two. You should be able to see your yeast actively frothing in that time. If you are planning on creating more biomass (so that the yeast buds and reproduces) so you may need a little more sugar (or malt) and so most folk aim for a solution at about 1.040.

Fermaid O or K and similar nutrients added to the MUST (not the yeast) can kill rehydrating yeast. Go ferm is designed not to.

 

[Epond83]

Great info thanks!
The Wyeast 4766 that I am currently using is a liquid yest. So I think I am good for now but good to know in the future if i use dry yeast.

 

[Albionwood]

Cider is wine, not beer, and you don't use "brewing" methods to make it. One of the things that isn't necessary, and may even be detrimental, is building up a big yeast cell count. You neither need nor want a rapid, strong fermentation in cider - in fact many cider makers strive for the opposite, a long, slow, cool fermentation to preserve the delicate apple aromas and flavor.

 

[doublejef]

Cider is wine, not beer, and you don't use "brewing" methods to make it. One of the things that isn't necessary, and may even be detrimental, is building up a big yeast cell count. You neither need nor want a rapid, strong fermentation in cider - in fact many cider makers strive for the opposite, a long, slow, cool fermentation to preserve the delicate apple aromas and flavor.

I would say that this is one point of view, the one from the old school cidermaker.
The other one, from the new wave and also from the yeast industry is nearly the opposite. Those guys say that a stressed yeast is not a good think and doing Under pitching or fermenting out of the yeast t° range, you take the risk of having default in your cider and some other problems.
I still not know who's right and who's wrong, not even know if someone is. I guess the only right answer is : it depend.

 

[bernardsmith]

Great cider makers of France and Britain certainly follow the processes mentioned by Albionwood, and I think the great cider makers in the USA do the same thing, aiming for microscopic drops in SG over very long periods of time, with the yeast struggling for nitrogen in nitrogen poor apple-juice. There's real cider and then there's fermented apple juice sold as cider. And the difference is the difference between chalk and cheese.

 

[Albionwood]

Cider is easier to make than beer.
Great cider is much harder to make than great beer.
Technique matters.