lowest OG for insanely hoppy IPA?

[stickyfinger]

I'd like to make a double IPA with a much hop flavor and aroma that is possible. I am wondering how low my OG can be and still try to achieve this. I know that if I make a 1.040 wort and super hop it, it will likely be a hop tea. I know that if I use a 1.070ish wort, I can make a nice beer. Has anyone made a super hop bomb beer at a moderate alcohol level and been satisfied with the balance?

 

[Qhrumphf]

Who says you can't use a low gravity wort? You'd have to decrease the bitterness, and if you use malts with some character to them (use a base like Maris Otter or Vienna, and some character malts), you can have enough malt character to balance. Sounds like a good candidate for hop bursting if you ask me.

 

[stickyfinger]

Who says you can't use a low gravity wort? You'd have to decrease the bitterness, and if you use malts with some character to them (use a base like Maris Otter or Vienna, and some character malts), you can have enough malt character to balance. Sounds like a good candidate for hop bursting if you ask me.

I've heard a lot of people say that if the gravity is too low and you use a ton of hops, it tastes thin and like a "hop tea". I've never tried it. I guess I'll have to try something like that sometime soon

 

[inflictor-of-grimness]

Just mash higher, use some flaked oats, wheat, or rye for body, and a flavorful base malt.

I do think that you get quicker diminishing returns with hops in a low gravity beer. I wouldn't do a 6 oz dry hop in a <1.050 gravity beer like I would a dipa because 3 or 4 oz is plenty.

 

[kh54s10]

First if you made a 1.040 wort it would not really be a IIPA. It would be a hoppy APA.

I have used 8.5 ounces of hops in a 1.052 APA. It was really good. Use enough specialty malt to balance out the hops and it is good. The dry hop was 2.5 oz.

 

[stickyfinger]

First if you made a 1.040 wort it would not really be a IIPA. It would be a hoppy APA.

I have used 8.5 ounces of hops in a 1.052 APA. It was really good. Use enough specialty malt to balance out the hops and it is good. The dry hop was 2.5 oz.

OK, seems like the trend is toward the session IPA style with making the beer seem bigger than it is.

I'm not really looking for caramel or toasty or those types of flavors to balance the hops. I thought maybe larger amounts of Carapils and some light crystal would make the beer seem bigger than it is. I like the rye an oats suggestions, but I don't want any weird flavors getting in the way of the hops. I guess flaked wheat might help and not lend too much flavor either.

I think of APA as being a lot more malty than what I am looking for, but I suppose it could be called an APA but really be a small IPA.

I've been brewing a long time, but I've never really made good hoppy beers until the last 6 months or so. The greatest changes I've made is using the hop stand and massive dry hopping. It seems to really do the trick. I was just adding too few hops before and too many hops while the heat was still on the kettle. I have a lot of room for experimentation now!

 

[m00ps]

Ive found regular IPA strength to be the sweet spot, but maybe thats just been random issues with the few session IPAs Ive tried.

What do you consider "insanely hoppy?" I routinely have more than a pound of hops per 5gal batch, most going in an hour hopstand, and ive never had anyone complain it "too hoppy." I think its cause most people just think hops=bitterness. When they just taste them, they have no idea

and I agree, you have to disproportionately adjust the grain bill for more specialty malts (also vienna and munich helps) for sessions IPAs to balance it if you are using a hop bill from a regular strength IPA. Also love wheat and/or flaked wheat in IPAs since it seems to bring out a juicy character in the fruity hop varieties

 

[dlaramie08]

I have been making session beers, including ipa's, for the past year. It takes some practice to get a low abv beer to taste like a "normal" beer. Mashing high, in the the range of 156-158 is key, but you have to start with quality malts. The reason people described those beers as thin is because they weren't brewed correctly. It takes a couple of batches to nail it, you still may need to add more dextrines once you think you got it.

 

[stickyfinger]

Ive found regular IPA strength to be the sweet spot, but maybe thats just been random issues with the few session IPAs Ive tried.

What do you consider "insanely hoppy?" I routinely have more than a pound of hops per 5gal batch, most going in an hour hopstand, and ive never had anyone complain it "too hoppy." I think its cause most people just think hops=bitterness. When they just taste them, they have no idea

and I agree, you have to disproportionately adjust the grain bill for more specialty malts (also vienna and munich helps) for sessions IPAs to balance it if you are using a hop bill from a regular strength IPA. Also love wheat and/or flaked wheat in IPAs since it seems to bring out a juicy character in the fruity hop varieties

I'll have to try the flaked wheat. I think oats have a fair amount of flavor that I'd like to avoid, but I have only used them in Wit Biere, so maybe that is due to the yeast.

Right now I know that I can make what I consider "insanely hoppy" IPA by adding 6 ounces of pellets for a 165F hop stand for an hour followed by 8 ounces of dry hops. This is for a 5-6 gallon batch.

I was hoping I could use the same amount of hops (or maybe a little less if it gives the same result within taste threshold) but throttle back the malt so that it is at least closer to 6% ABV. This batch was 97% 2-row and 3% carapils at 1.065. I guess I thought that if I kept the same high hopping but didn't have the alcohol and residual sugars that a larger OG brings that the beer would start to taste bad. I need to experiment more with it. I just don't think it's possible to have a beer taste like a IIPA when it's not. Maybe I can get away with an IPA level at least.

I've tasted a few session IPAs, most recently All Day IPA from Founders I think? It tasted thin to me. It's not bad, but it's nothing like my hoppy beers. It is also in a can and who knows how old, so I'm not judging it just the can I got.

I kind of like the idea of using Vienna in a lower alcohol beer to get more maltiness without it being too toasty and caramel. Do I need to worry about DMS with Vienna malt if I do a 90 minute boil and then a covered 60-min. hop stand, followed by a 10-15 minutes cooling through a CFC?

 

[stickyfinger]

I have been making session beers, including ipa's, for the past year. It takes some practice to get a low abv beer to taste like a "normal" beer. Mashing high, in the the range of 156-158 is key, but you have to start with quality malts. The reason people described those beers as thin is because they weren't brewed correctly. It takes a couple of batches to nail it, you still may need to add more dextrines once you think you got it.

I think maybe Carapils would be a good solution. I want to try that sometime. Briess says up to 10% Carapils can really help with a session beer to make it seem bigger. I've used 7ish% in Tasty's Janet's brown, and that beer had a huge mouthfeel and head.

 

[m00ps]

It may just be me, but Ive never had any issues with DMS even in pilsner-heavy beers just doing a standard 60min boil. I do my IPAs pretty similar to yours it sounds like. +90% of the hops going in at some point after the flame is out.

Yeah I wouldnt want too much oats in an IPA. Regular wheat, flaked wheat, or torrified wheat is my go-to to help with the body. I also dont add sugar like I usually do in my IPAs and ive never had one that was thin feeling. Although I also use Conan as my IPA yeast which adds a silky body and definitely helps. Id recommend to try it out if you havent

 

[kh54s10]

OK, seems like the trend is toward the session IPA style with making the beer seem bigger than it is.

I think of APA as being a lot more malty than what I am looking for, but I suppose it could be called an APA but really be a small IPA.

I was commenting on the description of IIPA. Isn't that usually considered a high gravity IPA.

As far as APA/IPA ?? I make APAs that are very light and others that are fairly malty.

Terminology.

This is where I am coming from:
American IPA Original Gravity Range: 1.056-1.075 SG
American Pale Ale Original Gravity Range: 1.045-1.060 SG

 

[stickyfinger]

It may just be me, but Ive never had any issues with DMS even in pilsner-heavy beers just doing a standard 60min boil. I do my IPAs pretty similar to yours it sounds like. +90% of the hops going in at some point after the flame is out.

Yeah I wouldnt want too much oats in an IPA. Regular wheat, flaked wheat, or torrified wheat is my go-to to help with the body. I also dont add sugar like I usually do in my IPAs and ive never had one that was thin feeling. Although I also use Conan as my IPA yeast which adds a silky body and definitely helps. Id recommend to try it out if you havent

You know, I made a Strong Ale using like 20% Rye Malt and used Denny's yeast. It had a really incredible silky mouthfeel. I thought it was due to the Rye, but maybe it was (also) largely due to the yeast. I'll have to try that yeast again.

First, I want to try the Conan strain. I tried London Ale III and got good attenuation, but the beer tasted kind of odd to me. The hops I used seemed to clash some with the yeast character I though. It was only one trial though. I just preferred the US-05 version of the same beer that I made a lot more.

 

[m00ps]

Oh yeah, forgot about Rye. Ive only done 2 Rye IPAs but it definitely helps with body

I use WY1318 for most of my other hoppy beers that arent what I would consider IPA. I prefer Conan over 1318 for IPAs since it attenuates more (~80%) and seems to grow stronger with successive generations. Ive used Gigayeast and Omega yeast's offering of it and both are very good. I usually go for fruity (non-citrus) IPAs and piney/dank for blackIPAs. Conan's soft apricot esters work pretty well in both

 

[stickyfinger]

I was commenting on the description of IIPA. Isn't that usually considered a high gravity IPA.

As far as APA/IPA ?? I make APAs that are very light and others that are fairly malty.

Terminology.

This is where I am coming from:
American IPA Original Gravity Range: 1.056-1.075 SG
American Pale Ale Original Gravity Range: 1.045-1.060 SG

Yeah, it does get complicated for these styles. What exactly defines one or the other and can a beer fit both categories, probably. I guess I just think of APA as less hoppy and often more malty than IPA or IIPA. That's why I like the usage of Session IPA. To me that says exactly what it is, a lower alcohol version of an IPA. But, there are so many types of IPA now that it is getting confusing again.

I don't know if IIPA is just a higher alcohol IPA. Again, I guess I see the IIPA as an attempt to make a beer that has as much hop flavor and aroma as possible with as little detraction from weird malt or yeast flavors as possible. An IPA might be less hoppy but just a bigger version of an APA.

I guess we just need to define what it is that we want and stop relying on categories so much unless we are doing a competition. I just like using a language that everyone can understand, but we all speak different languages!

 

[stickyfinger]

Oh yeah, forgot about Rye. Ive only done 2 Rye IPAs but it definitely helps with body

I use WY1318 for most of my other hoppy beers that arent what I would consider IPA. I prefer Conan over 1318 for IPAs since it attenuates more (~80%) and seems to grow stronger with successive generations. Ive used Gigayeast and Omega yeast's offering of it and both are very good. I usually go for fruity (non-citrus) IPAs and piney/dank for blackIPAs. Conan's soft apricot esters work pretty well in both

The rye does have a flavor of its own that one may or may not want though as well. I've never tried flaked rye.

I found the WY1318 (London Ale III) lended a very intense apricot character that I enjoyed sometimes, but something about the beer also seemed kind of muddled and not as crisp as the US-05.

I just bought a pitch of Omega Labs DIPA yeast. I hope to try it in a comparison batch of IPA against another strain. I have been using US-05 for almost all of my American beers for a year now, so I should probably try it vs that first. I also wanted to throw some San Diego Super Yeast into the mix for a comparison at some point. Do you have experience with US-05 vs SDSY?

I certainly love Heady Topper, so I know the Conan strain works well with the dank/piney hops used in that beer. I also bought some caramalt and hope to make a Heady-inspired beer soon using the recipe on the Heady Clone thread for inspiration

 

[stickyfinger]

It may just be me, but Ive never had any issues with DMS even in pilsner-heavy beers just doing a standard 60min boil. I do my IPAs pretty similar to yours it sounds like. +90% of the hops going in at some point after the flame is out.

I forgot to respond to the DMS issue. On my old system, a turkey fryer burner, I'd get a slow turning boil, and I boiled a 60 minutes Saison that had 90%+ Pils, and it had so much DMS that I had to throw it out.

Now, I have been using an electric kettle, and I have a BIG boil, 1.5-1.8 gallons per hour evaporation. I recently made a 100% Pils malt (Best Malz) Belgian Golden Ale. I decided to boil 90 minutes and then throw in 2 ounces of Galaxy for a 30 minute hop stand at 208 down to like 170F with the lid on. The wort sample smelled pretty strongly of DMS. However, it was all gone after fermentation, so I am pretty confident that with my current system, I can do a large Vienna addition or maybe even Pils and get away with at least a 30 minute hop stand, but I have worried about it still. Maybe I'll start with Vienna and see how it goes.

How much Vienna have you used in an IPA or session IPA to give it character?

 

[m00ps]

This was my last session IPA. Grain bill was on point but I get a slight metallic aftertaste that im pretty sure is from the Amarillo and possibly the experimental hops:

5 lb 2 row
2 lb vienna
2 lb wheat
6 oz carapils
6 oz golden naked oats

@60: 1 oz Magnum
@15: 1 Belma / 1 Huell Melon
@0: 1 ½ Belma / 1 ½ Huell Melon / 1 exp6277 / 1 amarillo
*hour hopstand*
@+30min into hopstand: 1 Belma / 1 Huell Melon / 2 exp 6277 / 1 amarillo
@dry: ½ Belma / ½ Huell Melon / 1 exp6277
@keg: 2 oz Amarillo

 

[stickyfinger]

This was my last session IPA. Grain bill was on point but I get a slight metallic aftertaste that im pretty sure is from the Amarillo and possibly the experimental hops:

5 lb 2 row
2 lb vienna
2 lb wheat
6 oz carapils
6 oz golden naked oats

@60: 1 oz Magnum
@15: 1 Belma / 1 Huell Melon
@0: 1 ½ Belma / 1 ½ Huell Melon / 1 exp6277 / 1 amarillo
*hour hopstand*
@+30min into hopstand: 1 Belma / 1 Huell Melon / 2 exp 6277 / 1 amarillo
@dry: ½ Belma / ½ Huell Melon / 1 exp6277
@keg: 2 oz Amarillo

Nice! That's a lot of hops, just what I was hoping for. I'll give this malt bill a try. You used wheat malt I assume? What do the golden naked oats taste like? I have some of them actually but haven't used them yet.

I didn't know Amarillo could be metallic! yuck!

I'd like to do a hoppy beer with some Apollo, Comet, Simcoe and CTZ next I think. Maybe some Summit too

 

[m00ps]

Yeah this was regular wheat malt. Golden naked oats are probably my favorite specialty malt. They give a nutty fruit taste almost like a granola bar. Actually yeah thats exactly what it reminds me of. Its the only malt i'd pour milk over and eat with a spoon

 

[stickyfinger]

Yeah this was regular wheat malt. Golden naked oats are probably my favorite specialty malt. They give a nutty fruit taste almost like a granola bar. Actually yeah thats exactly what it reminds me of. Its the only malt i'd pour milk over and eat with a spoon

Sound good in a session IPA. I know the guy at the bearflavored website used it in an IPA he liked a lot. I'll have to try it.

 

[stickyfinger]

This was my last session IPA. Grain bill was on point but I get a slight metallic aftertaste that im pretty sure is from the Amarillo and possibly the experimental hops:

5 lb 2 row
2 lb vienna
2 lb wheat
6 oz carapils
6 oz golden naked oats

@60: 1 oz Magnum
@15: 1 Belma / 1 Huell Melon
@0: 1 ½ Belma / 1 ½ Huell Melon / 1 exp6277 / 1 amarillo
*hour hopstand*
@+30min into hopstand: 1 Belma / 1 Huell Melon / 2 exp 6277 / 1 amarillo
@dry: ½ Belma / ½ Huell Melon / 1 exp6277
@keg: 2 oz Amarillo

what OG are you targeting here? I just got a fresh pack of Denny's favorite and some Vienna at the LHBS and plan to use this malt bill this weekend. what mash temp? i'm going to use different hops though. would this work with simcoe, columbus, apollo, comet and sumit?

 

[m00ps]

my target OG/FG was 1.053/1.011 with 80% estimated AA from Conan yeast. Mashed at 152, higher than I do for normal strength IPAs

all of those hops will work great together. Apollo summit and columbus are all traditionally bittering hops but also work great as hopstand additions too. Comet is my favorite dry hop to use in black IPAs because it is just so potent as a dry hop. It has a very resinous dank, grapefruit zest character that I like to get in black IPAs in particular. The combo of columbus comet and summit in particular would get you a very resinous, almost "sticky" tasting IPA. Like sucking the juice out of a cone

 

[MannyEdwards]

I tried something very similar to what you're talking about. It was my first Citra dry hop, so I wanted to really showcase the hops and see what I could do with it. I wound up with a very light-bodied, very dry, hoppy IPA that tastes citrusy with a pineapple top note, finishing off in grapefruit. It's more bitter than I was hoping, but my wife and my son love it as is and wouldn't change it, so it's a matter of taste. I'll admit that the bitterness gives it a nice sturdy sense of body in the middle, and supports the grapefruit as it tapers off in the finish.

Because the body was so light, I got a lot of hoppiness without a lot of hops. My dry hop was only 1.7 oz, and it's perfect.

I bittered with Bravo, and added a little more at 5 minutes for its generic fruity aroma.

Important: To get that subtle pineapple flavor, which is a highly volatile component, you need to hop it fairly cool, like 64 F, and then cold crash immediately when it's done. If it warms up too much, that volatile aroma will dissipate into the room. And don't dry hop too long or you'll get too much grapefruit (for my taste). Mine went 8 days before cold crashing, then two days at 30 F before I racked it off the hops.

OG target was 1.060, but I had trouble with the efficiency, so my actual OG was 1.053, which I bumped to 1.057 with pils dme just before chilling. FG was 1.014, ABV about 5.6%.

Here's the recipe:

HOME BREW RECIPE:
Title: Sunfish IPA

Brew Method: All Grain
Style Name: American IPA
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 5.5 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 7 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.047
Efficiency: 70% (brew house)

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.060
Final Gravity: 1.015
ABV (standard): 5.89%
IBU (tinseth): 50.39
SRM (morey): 3.44

FERMENTABLES:
9.5 lb - American - Pilsner (76%)
3 lb - Flaked Rice (24%)

HOPS:
0.8 oz - Bravo, Type: Pellet, AA: 15.8, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 44.81
0.5 oz - Bravo, Type: Pellet, AA: 15.8, Use: Boil for 5 min, IBU: 5.58
1.7 oz - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 14, Use: Dry Hop for 8 days

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Infusion, Temp: 154 F, Time: 60 min, Amount: 9 qt, Sacc rest after cereal mash
Starting Mash Thickness: 1.2 qt/lb

YEAST:
Fermentis / Safale - English Ale Yeast S-04
Starter: No
Form: Dry
Attenuation (avg): 75%
Flocculation: High
Optimum Temp: 54 - 77 F
Pitch Rate: 0.75 (M cells / ml / deg P)

NOTES:
gu bu target .84

Make a cereal mash if using raw rice.
Mill rice to fine grist
Add 2 lbs of the pils to all the rice. 5 lb total grain in the cereal mash
Add hot 2-3 qt/lb water, 10-15 qt, to hit 156, hold 20 min
Slowly heat to boiling, hold 20-30 min, stirring constantly
Mash remaining 7.5 lbs pils at 152-154. Add cereal mash, cooling, if necessary, to 156. Hold 60 min

 

[stickyfinger]

I tried something very similar to what you're talking about. It was my first Citra dry hop, so I wanted to really showcase the hops and see what I could do with it. I wound up with a very light-bodied, very dry, hoppy IPA that tastes citrusy with a pineapple top note, finishing off in grapefruit. It's more bitter than I was hoping, but my wife and my son love it as is and wouldn't change it, so it's a matter of taste. I'll admit that the bitterness gives it a nice sturdy sense of body in the middle, and supports the grapefruit as it tapers off in the finish.

thanks for the recipe

 

[stickyfinger]

my target OG/FG was 1.053/1.011 with 80% estimated AA from Conan yeast. Mashed at 152, higher than I do for normal strength IPAs

all of those hops will work great together. Apollo summit and columbus are all traditionally bittering hops but also work great as hopstand additions too. Comet is my favorite dry hop to use in black IPAs because it is just so potent as a dry hop. It has a very resinous dank, grapefruit zest character that I like to get in black IPAs in particular. The combo of columbus comet and summit in particular would get you a very resinous, almost "sticky" tasting IPA. Like sucking the juice out of a cone

give me your dark IPA recipe as well with the Comet. I'd like to try one of those.

I think I'll try to go down to 1.045 with your recipe. Maybe I should replace some 2-row base malt with more Carapils to get up to 10%? I'm excited to try the Comet and Apollo

 

[m00ps]

Here's the last black IPA I did. Tried a bit of rye to switch things up. Figured the spiciness would go with the pine/dank. Ive started using a method where I add most of the debittered roasted malt only at mashout for color and very little flavor. Really helps make it stand out as an IPA and not a hoppy stout. The Vics secret I just got from Yakima and sounded very resinous which screamed black IPA to me. Ive been pretty locked into the simcoe/chinook combo for black IPAs and have been toying with another one to pair

8 lb 2 row
3 lb rye
1 lb flaked rye
6 oz midnight wheat
6 oz carapils
4 oz aromatic
1 lb cane sugar
12 oz midnight wheat @ mashout

@60: 1 oz summit
@15: 1 simcoe / 1 mosaic
@0: 2 simcoe / 2 mosaic / 2 chinook
@+30min into hopstand: 2 simcoe / 1 mosaic / 2 chinook / 1 vics secret
@dry: 1 simcoe / 1 chinook
@dry2: 2 comet / 1 vics secret
@keg: 1 simcoe / 1 chinook

conan yeast