Low pH resulting in watery mouthfeel?

[mustardtiger]

So i’ve been working on my house ale for some time now, continually tweeking. I’ve come to a hurdle that I have yet to get over though. No matter my water chemistry, use of flaked ingredients, higher gravity; I am continually getting a similar result in a watery mouthfeel. I thought possibly carbonation level could play a small role but as I play with that I don’t get much of a difference. Flaked oats seems to make that watery feel worse in my opinion, too silky maybe;I’ve gone up to 20%. I’ve also messed around with flaked barley. I have flaked wheat but had phased it out of the beer. I also used carapils in my last batch with 2-row and a touch of honey malt. Still no dice. I recently read somewhere that too low a ph after fermentation could be giving me this feel. Has anyone heard of this? Mash ph is typically 5.4, I haven’t bothered with post fermentation reading. If I do what is typical and /what ph would lend to the watery mouthfeel. Though I absolutely feel this on my session, I also sense it on higher 5-7% ales. I use Brun Water, and feel fairly knowledgeable when it comes to chemistry. I’ve done many variations on chloride-sulfate(not ratios). Gone higher on calcium as well as sodium. Ca- up to 140 Na up to 60ish. Nothing seems to be working. Somebody has the answer, I continually have quality New England beers(Hillfarm, River Roost, Treehouse, anything in Portland, etc). I want that nice pillowy, melt on your tongue feeling. HELP

 

[ajdelange]

No guarantees but you might look at
-Increased mash water chloride
-Increased saccharification temperature
-Bigger beer (i.e. more malt)
-Mash pH closer to 5.5 or even a bit higher.
-Some wheat malt
-A less attenuative yeast strain

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

More estery yeast selections may also help give character and feel to your beers. Ditto acidulated malt, if mash pH permits.

Flaked barley may perceptually if not factually thin out your beer. And it appears from some research I recently did on the subject that flaked oats need to be at the level of 15% or more of the grist (by weight) in order to definitively lend a perceptible creaminess to the mouthfeel.

 

[mustardtiger]

No guarantees but you might look at
-Increased mash water chloride
-Increased saccharification temperature
-Bigger beer (i.e. more malt)
-Mash pH closer to 5.5 or even a bit higher.
-Some wheat malt
-A less attenuative yeast strain

How high would you go on Chloride? I’ve gone close to 250ppm in the past, definitely didn’t give me what Im looking for.

I continually mash 156-158 so I can’t get much higher

Can you elaborate on what higher pH and wheat malt would lend.

I’ve also thought about yeast selection. Typically use 1272, I have used 1318 but the response from people wasn’t as good as using ale yeast. I know at least one place uses 1318 for their NEIPA though it isn’t well know or even that good. Tried 3522 as well but was very over powering.

I believe in the past you recommended using low mineralized water, if so what are your thoughts?

Thanks for the reply and advice Aj

 

[mustardtiger]

More estery yeast selections may also help give character and feel to your beers. Ditto acidulated malt, if mash pH permits.

Flaked barley may perceptually if not factually thin out your beer. And it appears from some research I recently did on the subject that flaked oats need to be at the level of 15% or more of the grist (by weight) in order to definitively lend a perceptible creaminess to the mouthfeel.

I had recently gone up to 20% oat but I felt the “creaminess” almost lended to the watery feel. Do you have experience with percentage that high? If so are you mixing with any other flaked ingredients or straight oats?

Another thought I had was thickness of mash? Could this possibly do anything? I feel my mash is thinner than most. Usually 6 gallons H2O for ~14lb grain, with 3 gallon sparge. Though I recently did a sour mash that was much thicker and felt conversion was better. Really just trying to explore any possibilities. Thanks for the help

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

My "planned and on deck" batch of Oatmeal Stout has 14% by weight of Flaked Oats planned for it. I do not generally brew this style, plus I'm only fully returning to brewing after a 15-16 year hiatus, and I've been back to it as a routine/hobby for only a bit more than a year now. My research indicating a detectability break-over point of roughly 15% for rolled or flaked oats essentially involved the gathering of and the ballpark averaging of the greatly varying "opinions" of others whom I presume to be far more knowledgeable than myself on this subject. But who knows how many of them are merely parroting what they have heard from others?

 

[mabrungard]

I have found that body seems to thin if I allow mashing pH to fall below 5.2, but that doesn't seem the problem here. I see that flaked adjuncts have been used. I found that both flaked wheat or barley added body for my brews. Barley is especially potent at adding body-building beta-glucans, but I find it has a grainy flavor that I don't like in paler styles (its flavor is OK in darker styles).

One thing that isn't mentioned is the duration and vigor of your boil. Long and hard boils can break down Coagulable Nitrogen too far and that can affect head and body. All you need is about an hour of boil at a slightly rolling vigor.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

One thing that isn't mentioned is the duration and vigor of your boil. Long and hard boils can break down Coagulable Nitrogen too far and that can affect head and body. All you need is about an hour of boil at a slightly rolling vigor.

I can attest that the perception of the chewiness/mouthfeel of my beers improved when I took Martin's advice and reduced boil vigor.

 

[mustardtiger]

I have found that body seems to thin if I allow mashing pH to fall below 5.2, but that doesn't seem the problem here. I see that flaked adjuncts have been used. I found that both flaked wheat or barley added body for my brews. Barley is especially potent at adding body-building beta-glucans, but I find it has a grainy flavor that I don't like in paler styles (its flavor is OK in darker styles).

One thing that isn't mentioned is the duration and vigor of your boil. Long and hard boils can break down Coagulable Nitrogen too far and that can affect head and body. All you need is about an hour of boil at a slightly rolling vigor.

Thanks Martin,

I have found a few that say the same about flaked barley, however I did a session ale recently using strictly flaked barley for adjuncts and got a flavor that I rather enjoyed, minus the problem watery taste. I also know a popular session that I enjoy uses mainly flaked barley for adjuncts, or so it’s listed.

I would say my boils are a slight vigor, though I could be wrong. And I almost always do a 60 min mash unless I experiment with Pilsner.

What are your thoughts on post fermentation pH? Mash thickness?

 

[ajdelange]

How high would you go on Chloride? I’ve gone close to 250ppm in the past, definitely didn’t give me what Im looking for.

Not that high! Chloride is known for its body enhancing properties but it isn't necessary (or, probably, desireable) to go that high. Beers with chloride of 10 - 20 mg/L can taste thin. Raising to 50 - 100 is certainly enough to eliminate that problem. If chloride in that range doens't fix it, chloride isn't the fix.

I continually mash 156-158 so I can’t get much higher

Same comment. If mashing in this range doesn't get you what you want, saccharification temperature adjustment isn't the fix.

Can you elaborate on what higher pH and wheat malt would lend.

Many complain that beers mashed at low pH are thin. Wheat lends protein and viscosity.

I’ve also thought about yeast selection. Typically use 1272, I have used 1318 but the response from people wasn’t as good as using ale yeast. I know at least one place uses 1318 for their NEIPA though it isn’t well know or even that good. Tried 3522 as well but was very over powering.

I was thinking that less sugar converted would result in more body but that doesn't seem to make sense as the unfermentable sugars are not going to ferment in any case.

I believe in the past you recommended using low mineralized water, if so what are your thoughts?

I'm a big fan on low mineral water but I'm a lager brewer and it definitely works for lagers but for ales I'm not so sure. You might want to back off sulfate. It lends a sort of dryness which you might consider thinning.

I guess the answer is to get more protein in there as dextrines don't seem to be doing the job. More malt will do that. Eliminating a protein rest or keeping it short might help. Reducing boil length has been suggested here. Ah, here's a thought. How about some (largely unfermentable) lactose?

 

[mustardtiger]

Not that high! Chloride is known for its body enhancing properties but it isn't necessary (or, probably, desireable) to go that high. Beers with chloride of 10 - 20 mg/L can taste thin. Raising to 50 - 100 is certainly enough to eliminate that problem. If chloride in that range doens't fix it, chloride isn't the fix.

Same comment. If mashing in this range doesn't get you what you want, saccharification temperature adjustment isn't the fix.

Many complain that beers mashed at low pH are thin. Wheat lends protein and viscosity.

I was thinking that less sugar converted would result in more body but that doesn't seem to make sense as the unfermentable sugars are not going to ferment in any case.

I'm a big fan on low mineral water but I'm a lager brewer and it definitely works for lagers but for ales I'm not so sure. You might want to back off sulfate. It lends a sort of dryness which you might consider thinning.

I guess the answer is to get more protein in there as dextrines don't seem to be doing the job. More malt will do that. Eliminating a protein rest or keeping it short might help. Reducing boil length has been suggested here. Ah, here's a thought. How about some (largely unfermentable) lactose?

It seems as though I should try getting some protein in there to see the results. I have a good amount of flaked wheat on hand.

I have thought about lactose though I have yet to use it. What type of quality does it lend to a beer?

The large treehouse yeast thread has evidence of treehouses alter ego having a level of 421ppm Chloride. Obviously mashing ppm is lower but still. Any thoughts? I’ve always been curious on the effects that raising ppm levels have post mashing.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Lactose will raise your FG due to being largely unfermentable. Lactose is a good choice if you want a bit of residual sweetness, such as for a Milk Stout. Maltodextrin will do pretty much the same thing for FG, but with less added sweetness perception.