Low 130's = flat beer! Is there hope?

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Shawn3997

Will brew for beer.
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Hello all!

I did a low 130's mash for about 15-20 minutes (before a 145/158F rest) on my latest Pilsner lagers to hopefully get rid of some chill haze and it didn't work. Also they have no head retention at all now. Flat as Kansas.

I still have a few beers that also got the rest but haven't been bottled yet -- can they be "fixed" at this point? Should I toss in some hops maybe? Dextrin powder (if that exists)?

Other than these two issues the beers all turned out great tasting so far. Can anything be done at this point (they are still in carboys) to possibly fix this issue? It really seems to make the beers taste a bit flat.

Thanks!
 
If you’re using fully modified Pils malt (about 99% of what’s commercially available), a protein rest is neither required nor desired. Step mashes are great for brewing Pilsner, but anything between 113-140F is gonna detrimentally affect head retention. I can’t imagine maltodextrin powder would help much at this point beyond raising your terminal gravity.

For future reference, you can arrest chill haze by using kettle and post fermentation finings, moderating calcium levels to 50 ppm or less, and cold crashing and lagering at lower temperatures. You will eventually get bright beer.
 
Agree on the cold crashing, mine are crashed to 33F, then lager for around 4 weeks at that temp. The lagering is important to clearing them up. Try carbing it up to 2.6-7 vols, won't help with head retention, but will not taste flat.

In the future, something like 3-5 percent white wheat malt in mash makes for a good head without affecting flavor much. Significant dextrin additions affect flavor in a negative way in my opinion.
 
Protein rests are evil. Don't do a protein rest ever again. I had the same experience, which is why I don't do them anymore either.

I've had good success improving head retention, believe it or not, just by adding some DME and letting it ferment out before packaging. You can boil up a half pound of pilsner DME in a few cups of water, cool, and add to the fermenter. For whatever reasons, the random beers I have had to do this with over the years to increase OG or ABV have usually turned out with a creamier foam and better head retention.
 
Yes, no more protein rests for sure. I will try the DME trick, thanks.
 
Agree on the cold crashing, mine are crashed to 33F, then lager for around 4 weeks at that temp. The lagering is important to clearing them up. Try carbing it up to 2.6-7 vols, won't help with head retention, but will not taste flat.

In the future, something like 3-5 percent white wheat malt in mash makes for a good head without affecting flavor much. Significant dextrin additions affect flavor in a negative way in my opinion.

Would a roasted malt like Wyermann's Chocolate Wheat also work?
 
I imagine it would, not that it would be my choice for a pilsner.

I like to add approx. 1/2 lb of roasted malts to my Pilsners to make dark lagers. I would replace some of those malts with the Chocolate Wheat if it is a good substitute for something like debittered Carafa II for instance. I just started drinking one that I made with 1/4 lb. Pale Chocolate and 1/4 lb. debittered Carafa II that turned out really good, although I might add an ounce of English Black next time to round out the flavors.
 
You can boil up a half pound of pilsner DME in a few cups of water, cool, and add to the fermenter. For whatever reasons, the random beers I have had to do this with over the years to increase OG or ABV have usually turned out with a creamier foam and better head retention.

You know, that's pretty interesting. I've noticed the same thing but didn't put 2+2 together until now.
It might have something to do with the extract wort having a higher protein content than a comparable AG beer with the same bitterness-to-gravity ratio. I've never considered using a WhirlFloc on an extract beer, but never thought twice about it when doing lighter SRM AG brews.
Thanks for the tip!
 
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If you’re using fully modified Pils malt (about 99% of what’s commercially available), a protein rest is neither required nor desired. Step mashes are great for brewing Pilsner, but anything between 113-140F is gonna detrimentally affect head retention. I can’t imagine maltodextrin powder would help much at this point beyond raising your terminal gravity.

For future reference, you can arrest chill haze by using kettle and post fermentation finings, moderating calcium levels to 50 ppm or less, and cold crashing and lagering at lower temperatures. You will eventually get bright beer.

Seems like the malting companies have done pretty much all of the work for us these days. Meanwhile I have a bunch of no-head beers but they do taste really good otherwise I'm happy to say.
 
Meanwhile I have a bunch of no-head beers but they do taste really good otherwise I'm happy to say.
Do those beers have sufficient carbonation and does it last after pouring? Carbonation is important for flavor and aroma perception and mouthfeel. Head is just for appearance, it really doesn't add much perception by itself.
 
Do those beers have sufficient carbonation and does it last after pouring? Carbonation is important for flavor and aroma perception and mouthfeel. Head is just for appearance, it really doesn't add much perception by itself.

Yes, they are well carbonated. Even if I pour them to get a major head it dissipates quickly. The beers do have a different mouthfeel because of the lack of head. It's more like drinking a soft drink.
 
Yes, they are well carbonated. Even if I pour them to get a major head it dissipates quickly. The beers do have a different mouthfeel because of the lack of head. It's more like drinking a soft drink.
When you tilt the glass away from you, then back quickly, you should see lots of small CO2 bubbles slowly rise where you tilted it back. That's the visual indication of existing carbonation inside the beer. If you see none, carbonation is (too) low.
 
The Kolbach and SNR numbers indicate level of modification. Chances are, fully modified malt won't make ale and lager unless enzymes are added. When enzymes are added the temperature which activates the enzyme is used. Brewers grade malt modification is below 40 Kolbach, high modified, homebrew malt is 42 to 46 Kolbach. The higher the modification the less rich the malt is in enzyme content. The higher the modification the closer to becoming a plant.
Brewers grade malt is below 10% protein. Homebrew malt is 12 to 16%. The higher the percentage of protein the less sugar is in the malt. Kolbach, percentage of protein, malt pH, extract efficiency, gravity per pound are a few numbers listed on a malt spec sheet. Every bag of malt comes with one, believe it or not. Malt is very inconsistent and every bag, sack, car load of malt is tested and the test results are listed on a spec sheet. A person interested in purchasing malt looks over the spec sheet to determine if the malt will make ale and lager or if it is better suited for making whiskey with.

The beer is still in a carboy, so, it's pretty early to make an accurate determination on whether the method worked or didn't work. From years of experience producing only lager and Pils the method didn't work. It wouldn't make ale, either.

The brewer that mentioned certain temperatures won't cause anything to happen in fully modified malt is 100% correct. The malt lacks the enzymes that would do what they're supposed to do with starch, fiber and sugar.

A rest at 130F has more to do with fibrous Beta glucan than with protein, but it's proteolytic enzymes that reduce the fiber. The enzyme releases glucose from the fiber during the rest. A rest temperature between 120 and 125F are used during a protein rest when brewers grade malt is used. Alpha is active at 130F, too. I'm assuming that fully modified malt was used which lacks the enzymes required during the 130F rest, but Alpha was slowly releasing simple sugar, glucose which yeast rips up during primary fermentation, cranking up ABV.
During a rest at 145F Beta is active, Alpha, too. Conversion occurs during the rest when Beta converts glucose released by Alpha during saccharification into maltose and maltotriose, complex sugar which yeast doesn't care for too much.
In fully modified malt Beta is whipped and conversion doesn't occur. When conversion doesn't occur the wort lacks the types of sugar needed in ale and lager. When conversion occurs secondary fermentation is needed and the beer won't need to be primed with sugar or CO2 for carbonation. During aging yeast converts maltotriose back into glucose. The sugar is fuel and natural carbonation takes place and the beer drops to expected FG. When beer contains maltose and maltotriose and the beer is primed with sugar, yeast rips through the sugar first, then goes after complex sugar and over carbonation, gushers and bottle bombs happen.
During a rest at 158F Alpha releases more sweet tasting, nonfermenting sugar than glucose. Depending on the length of the rest the sweet sugar may balance out some of the drying characteristic in beer caused when mash is rested during low temperatures.

To make things easier.

Alpha is responsible for liquefaction (occurs when the amylose starch chain is cut), saccharification (after the chain is cut, the reducing end contains sweet tasting, nonfermenting sugar, the nonreducing end is glucose) and dextrinization (occurs when Alpha releases A and B limit dextrin from complex starch, amylopectin). A and B limit dextrin are types of tasteless, nonfermenting sugar responsible for body and mouthfeel. The starch is heat resistant and makes up the tips of malt. Being complex starch it's the richest starch in malt. During the infusion brewing process temperatures are not high enough to cause the starch to enter into solution. The starch is left in the spent mash. The starch are small, white particles noticeable in spent mash. When the starch is turned into flour starch carry over occurs because it requires high heat to stretch out the coils of pectin. Pectin causes beer to gel during storage. It's strange looking stuff. When amylopectin is left in spent mash the beer lacks body and mouthfeel. Amylopectin is one of the reasons for the decoction method because mash is boiled, the starch is in solution. When the boiling mash is added back into the tun dextrinization takes place.

Beta is responsible for conversion 140, 145F. During conversion Beta converts glucose into maltose and maltotriose.

All that kinda stuff I mentioned needs to happen to make ale and lager, otherwise, the beer will be similar to prohibition style beer.

"Seems like the malting companies have done pretty much all of the work for us these days. Meanwhile I have a bunch of no-head beers but they do taste really good otherwise I'm happy to say."

The malting companies only produced the malt you purchased and you assumed that the recipe that recommended purchasing the malt was 100% correct. E caveat emptor, buy brewers grade malt which is available but not in an HBS. Skagit Malting Co and Pioneer Malting come to mind. It's common to beat up the maltster, for real, in homebrewing. It would be better to beat up the person that didn't tell you that malt is inconsistent.

Next time purchase Weyermann Pils floor malt, it's expensive but you'll need it. Some HBS carry it, pay attention to the use by date on the bag.
Rest the mash at 122 to 125F for 10 minutes. Crank the heat up to 140F rest the mash for 40 minutes, crank the heat up to 154F and rest for 10 minutes, crank the heat up to 162F and rest for 20 minutes. No mash out. Mash out only works with the decoction method, the right way. Fly sparge, you worked to hard to batch sparge. Run off extract to 1012. Boil the wort, skimming off hot break as it forms. When hot break stops forming or drastically reduces add hops and skim off second hot break. Cool the wort and allow it to settle for a few hours. Rack the wort off the goop and add yeast. Primary 10 days, secondary two weeks. Keg the beer adding no sugar and wait. Test for carbonation every so often. When the beer is clear, pound it down. It may take several months depending on OG, your making lager. To make the beer richer and with more backbone to go through a long aging cycle without falling apart boil some mash and add it before Alpha denatures.
 
The response above is full of errors and 99% irrelevant. Safe to ignore.

Cheers all.
It's not all that inaccurate, just over the top verbose, given the thread's topic. There are a few claims and irregularities that could be perceived as misunderstandings or errors, perhaps some half truths. For example, big (!) breweries indeed do order malts to their specs, they're not getting "generic malt." But most, if not all smaller craft breweries use the same malts we homebrewers do. And we love the beers they make with them!
 
A lot of that babble could've been edited.
Some of the best info in that mess referenced a Kolbach Index which refers to the malt characteristics. Do many people pay attention? Probably not, but if you're interested in the specs and want to learn, the info is out there.
I like using European malts and DO notice a definite difference in mashing certain brands. It's caused me to change up a few of my brewing habits but it's part of the learning curve.
 
It must have had something to do with my bottling because now that I've got my keezer up I'm getting good foam. It doesn't last as long as I'd like but I guess that's just more to learn.
 
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